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Confusion on a quote from the NT

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posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . .that's your problem, not a problem with the text.
Seems the main purpose of you post is to make a personal attack on me for not agreeing with you.
Show where John identifies himself.




posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

. . .that's your problem, not a problem with the text.
Seems the main purpose of you post is to make a personal attack on me for not agreeing with you.
Show where John identifies himself.


No, the main purpose of my postings was in response to your comment that John was not the "beloved" apostle.

Which is false.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Which is false.
Because you say so?



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Which is false.
Because you say so?


Me? Dear God no. Because the book of John says so.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Me? Dear God no. Because the book of John says so.
Go ahead and quote it, then.
You should also stop blaspheming.
edit on 7-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Me? Dear God no. Because the book of John says so.
Go ahead and quote it, then.
You should also stop blaspheming.


How am I blaspheming?

I've already shown several verses from John where he is referred to as the "beloved apostle" or the "apostle whom Jesus loved". That's the identification John uses for himself in his gospel.



posted on Sep, 7 2011 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

This is indicative of an unconverted soul, accepting philosophy over scripture and having no true sense of right and wrong, and then being hateful. That is not the way a Christian behaves.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

This is indicative of an unconverted soul, accepting philosophy over scripture and having no true sense of right and wrong, and then being hateful. That is not the way a Christian behaves.


Christ and His apostles had very harsh words to say to those who were spreading false doctrine, so I can't agree with you on that comment. You're the one that has said I'm "going to hell", that I'll be grabbed by "strong angels and cast into hell", that I'm a member of "a cult", that I don't have the Holy Spirit even though I continually declare Jesus Christ is Lord. You're the one between the two of us that judges eternal destiny, not I. I've never told you that you're going to hell or that you don't have the Holy Spirit. So your verbal assault above quite honestly lacks any merit.

Secondly, how can you claim I have "no sense of right or wrong" when I've never shared my beliefs on what is "right" and what is "wrong". Is that another of your assumptions? You constantly slander me, and judge me, so it seems pretty silly for you to level the charges above. That's okay though, I'm not here to make friends and I'm not running for office in November so I don't need to collect votes of confidence. I forgive you for slandering me and judging me without knowing my heart.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

What is in a person's heart ends up coming out of their mouth.
Saying you are going to be cast into the lake of fire along with the false prophet is me saying what happens to the people who preach the philosophy of the false prophet.
The message of the false prophet is that people will be saved in the condition of a unregenerate sinner, even though they have had sufficient time to make a change in the way they live their life and to learn to shun the pleasures of sin.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



The message of the false prophet is that people will be saved in the condition of a unregenerate sinner.


2 questions:

1. Got a verse for that?

2. When did I ever claim the unrepentant unregenerate will be saved?


More slander? Really??



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


2. When did I ever claim the unrepentant unregenerate will be saved?
Now you are adding a condition to what I just said.
So you are saying that an unregenerate sinner will be saved. Just as long as that person shows some sort of unhappiness with what appears to be his fate. That is not true repentance. That is part of this false philosophy, that repentance is nothing more that an intellectual assent to the fact that they deserve to be punished, but has nothing to do with actually doing anything about it.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

1. Got a verse for that?

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive many,
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves.
Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Revelation 16:13 Then I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Luke 6:26 “Woe to you when all people speak well of you, for their ancestors did the same things to the false prophets.
1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves.
Revelation 19:20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf – signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur

A lot of people equate the second beast of Revelation, that comes up from the earth, with the false prophet but it doesn't say that explicitly.
I think it is likely that the false prophet is the same false prophet that has been around all along just as the antichrist is the same antichrist that has always been around. The message of the antichrist and the false prophet is that Jesus was somehow made of something superior to ordinary humanity (thus able to remain sinless) and that people who believe in Jesus are unable to ever attain a similar righteousness to Jesus'.
What Revelation implies, to me, is that the false prophet philosophy joins with the false teachings of the second beast, and that (also to me) is the denial of the true messiah-ship of Jesus and an annulment to the New Covenant by instead acknowledging the sovereignty of the "prince of this world" and the "god of this age" who is actually Satan.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


2. When did I ever claim the unrepentant unregenerate will be saved?
Now you are adding a condition to what I just said.
So you are saying that an unregenerate sinner will be saved. Just as long as that person shows some sort of unhappiness with what appears to be his fate. That is not true repentance. That is part of this false philosophy, that repentance is nothing more that an intellectual assent to the fact that they deserve to be punished, but has nothing to do with actually doing anything about it.


Go to any concordance. The Greek word used for "repent" means to "change one's mind". A person who truly has repented/changed their mind will bear the fruit of that which is a changed behavior. Changed behavior is the effect of true repentance, not the cause.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Not a single verse you posted said "the message of the false prophet is that unregenerate sinners will be saved". So I'll ask agin, do you have any verses to back that up?? Which verse tells us what the message of the false prophet will be at the endtime?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Changed behavior is the effect of true repentance, not the cause.
It is also the sign of true repentance.
I think what you believe is that this sign should be ignored since it has nothing to do with salvation.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Not a single verse you posted said "the message of the false prophet is that unregenerate sinners will be saved". So I'll ask agin, do you have any verses to back that up?? Which verse tells us what the message of the false prophet will be at the endtime?
There is no verse saying it would be any different than it was before.
It does seem to work in conjunction with the second beast which sets up the image to the beast which I think is the modern "country" calling itself Israel.
So what you have is this teaching of the antichrist, the false prophet, and the beast, all joining together, ending up in exactly the philosophy that you promote.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Changed behavior is the effect of true repentance, not the cause.
It is also the sign of true repentance.
I think what you believe is that this sign should be ignored since it has nothing to do with salvation.


I think you're misunderstanding me. True repentance is changinh your mind. Example: a. Thief who though it was okay to steal. If that person repented, they would now consider theft to be wrong, a sin. The result of this is the thief would cease to steal. The opposite of that is just bahavior modification. You can achieve behavior modification without Christ and the Holy Spirit. That would be the thief training himself not tosteal to avoid consequences yet they still think it's okay to do.

A true repentance, changing of one's mind will naturally result in changed behavior. Changed behavior is the fruit or effect of repentance, not the cause of it.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Changed behavior is the fruit or effect of repentance, not the cause of it.
Nobody said it was.
So, you do not deny my charge, that you hold a belief that changing your behavior has nothing to do with salvation?



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Changed behavior is the fruit or effect of repentance, not the cause of it.
Nobody said it was.
So, you do not deny my charge, that you hold a belief that changing your behavior has nothing to do with salvation?


Of course I don't deny it. If our justification relied on us meriting it it would immediately not be grace. We are justified freely by grace through faith. The changing of our nature, or "born again", is a transformation done by the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit. We either yield to that and grow to maturity or we buck and fight it and remain a babe in Christ. I strongly suggest yielding and growing on to maturity in Christ.



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Changed behavior is the fruit or effect of repentance, not the cause of it.
Nobody said it was.
So, you do not deny my charge, that you hold a belief that changing your behavior has nothing to do with salvation?


Of course I don't deny it. If our justification relied on us meriting it it would immediately not be grace. We are justified freely by grace through faith. The changing of our nature, or "born again", is a transformation done by the leading and conviction of the Holy Spirit. We either yield to that and grow to maturity or we buck and fight it and remain a babe in Christ. I strongly suggest yielding and growing on to maturity in Christ.
Now you are changing the argument again because no one is arguing merit but you throw that out as a red herring, which is your normal argument technique.
Willfully bucking the spirit of God is not a sign of someone bearing fruit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, I think is something similar to what Paul said. What is willing, here? The mind of the convert, I would think, so in your example, there is not even that, to create a conflict with the flesh.
So, give me a verse that supports the idea that people who never even engage in any sort of change are saved.



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