Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

The premise is more accurate than your one cent a week stab in the dark which is so far off the mark as to be laughable.

Obviously that example and the intent behind it went waaaaay over your head (it wasn't meant as a serious guestimate), don't worry about it though as you've started searching in the right areas. Don't stop now.

I would provide more information myself but as I'm not living in your country it won't be worthwhile.

Originally posted by Goathief
Obviously that example and the intent behind it went waaaaay over your head (it wasn't meant as a serious guestimate), don't worry about it though as you've started searching in the right areas.

The example was hyperbole and completely rhetorical. It had no basis in reality. If it were not serious why post it and than ask for facts?

I would provide more information myself but as I'm not living in your country it won't be worthwhile.

So I take it by your lack of desire to post refuting figures that you do not disagree that the overall tax burden is too high.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

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There has been a good deal of rhetoric coming from the White House and politcal pundits about people having to 'pay their fair share' or 'share the burden'. I am a former business owner (restaurant) who is now involved in the manufacturing sector for the past three years.
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I am not ashamed to admit that I was very successful when I had my business. I made a good profit each year and had a happy and dedicated client base.
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While I am certainly not one of the 'millionares and billionaires' that seem to get vilified as of late I have done well and would fall under the target group of earners (due to filing jointly) that would see their taxes increase further if current White House sentiment were to become law.

At what point does someone feel obliagted to anymore of my hardwork? I have no issue paying my fair share, but I have a serious issue paying other people's fair share.

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Obviously you didn't fall into the Millionaire camp- anyone making over 250k a year pays less than 15% tax rate.

I have been in business for over 15 years, catering to other businesses. I have never heard of anyone paying even 40% tax rate for anything in business. When that happened, you must have fallen into some alternate dimension.

I have worked with businesses in foreign countries such as South Africa and South America. This has made me damn glad for the infrastructure, the transportation systems (land and water) the wide availability of energy, security through the police and fire departments, broad internet connectivity, the communications infrastructure, the country-wide stability and the laws and ease of business creation that, without which, many industries would not start, let alone survive.

I bless my forebears every day for investing in the growth of the infrastructure in this country by paying taxes. Everything listed above was started with tax money or investment in technologies with tax money. And when I pay taxes I know I am paying for a continuation of this growth because of these essential services.

I know that without these essential services- very few small businesses would be in existence in this country and very few large businesses would have been able to grow.

When I pay taxes I look at it as another capital expenditure that, without which, my and other businesses would simply not exist.

And when I see guys on forums having tantrums and crying "I MADE MY MONEY ALL BY MYSELF AND I SHOULD KEEP ALL OF IT." I know they are probably just sock puppets for those few major industries who have grown to the point where they want to put the entire tax burden on the poor and middle class.

I have never actually spoken with a real business owner of any merit who was not aware of the essential services that make business in this country possible - and where those services originated.

So dude, you need to do business in some of these other places- where people don't pay taxes. Maybe it will open your mind to the relative business paradise you live in now.

First, put down 20K to start a company in another country + hand off another 30k under the table in 'fees'. Then you pay the attorney that set it up another 20K. (versus about 250$ total to set up a corporation in the US.)
Then deal with roads that are, at best, half paved.
Railroads that are constantly down for repair for weeks at a time.
Have your drivers carry guns and extra tires because they are shot at regularly.
Deal with the only gas station on a 170 mile stretch of road that is out of gas...regularly.
Deal with brownouts and blackouts in the city that shut down your manufacturing for hours every day.
If you are outside the city deal with trucking in diesel for generators to run your lights... which then suffer attempted truck-jackings.
Security? The police are the ones behind the truck-jackings half the time.
Fire department? Only if you 'pay the fee'.
Communications infrastructure? Forget it. Internet? Lucky to have a dial up- when rebels or the poverty ridden aren't cutting and stealing lines.

And I could go on.

So you are welcome to go do business in a place like that where you aren't expected to 'share the burden'. Have at it and don't let the door hit you where it counts. This country is better off with one less selfish person who only thinks about himself- without even giving one thought to those who made his wealth possible.

So the next time you think about getting on the internet and whining about your taxes you better remember that you are not only shaming yourself - but you are denigrating those who came before you and sacrificed by paying taxes to build the infrastructure you rely on to reboot your computer and that your business could not exist without.

Originally posted by Stratus9
Obviously you didn't fall into the Millionaire camp- anyone making over 250k a year pays less than 15% tax rate.

Not sure which tax brackets you are using for a reference, these are from the Internal Revenue Service:

Jointly
10% Bracket $0 – $17,000
15% Bracket $17,000 – $69,000
25% Bracket $69,000 – $139,350
28% Bracket $139,350 – $212,300
33% Bracket $212,300 – $379,150
35% Bracket $379,150+

I have been in business for over 15 years, catering to other businesses. I have never heard of anyone paying even 40% tax rate for anything in business. When that happened, you must have fallen into some alternate dimension.

Please see above. The 'alternate dimension' you refer to is called the state of New Jersey where property taxes rival the national average personal income. I also mentioned this earlier as the 50% figure is cumulative.

And when I pay taxes I know I am paying for a continuation of this growth because of these essential services.

I know that without these essential services- very few small businesses would be in existence in this country and very few large businesses would have been able to grow.

I am curious. How did businesses survive prior to public infrastructure? Utility companies are private, telephone companies are private, railroads are private, etc. Anything other than the public roads are private. My bills paid for most of the infrastructure. My taxes went elsewhere so I am not sure to what you are refering.

And when I see guys on forums having tantrums and crying "I MADE MY MONEY ALL BY MYSELF AND I SHOULD KEEP ALL OF IT." I know they are probably just sock puppets for those few major industries who have grown to the point where they want to put the entire tax burden on the poor and middle class.

I never said I had an issue paying my fair share so stop being dramatic.

I have never actually spoken with a real business owner of any merit who was not aware of the essential services that make business in this country possible - and where those services originated.

Yes, they originated in the PRIVATE sector and still, for the most part, are located there.

First, put down 20K to start a company in another country + hand off another 30k under the table in 'fees'. Then you pay the attorney that set it up another 20K. (versus about 250$ total to set up a corporation in the US.)

Wow, only $250? I am really starting to think you have never even made an effort to open a business in the United States. Your filing fees will be higher than that.

So you are welcome to go do business in a place like that where you aren't expected to 'share the burden'. Have at it and don't let the door hit you where it counts. This country is better off with one less selfish person who only thinks about himself- without even giving one thought to those who made his wealth possible.

So the next time you think about getting on the internet and whining about your taxes you better remember that you are not only shaming yourself - but you are denigrating those who came before you and sacrificed by paying taxes to build the infrastructure you rely on to reboot your computer and that your business could not exist without.

Sorry, your strawman infrastructure arguement is completely invalid. PRIVATE industry built and maintain most infrastrustuce in the United States, not the government.

Originally posted by korathin
There is no excuse for CEO's to get millions while the average employee under-them barely scrapes by. As a society we are going to have to evolve beyond the concept that money is greater then people.

And one big problem is that many with your mindset are money hoarders. So if you have the well off hoarding money while encouraging everyone else to spend, spend spend; all money will end up in the hands of the rich and everyone else over the long haul will be reduced to a kind of feudal like poverty.

Did you even read my Original Post? I never said I was a Chief Executive Officer who made millions while underpaying my employees. You seem to have my former small business mistaken for a much larger company.

Well Augustus, I guess you would have hated living in the most prosperous times in American history, right after WWII, when the wealthy were taxed even more than they are now.

Back when 1 income could support a family, buy a house, a car, and a vacation every year.

Why is it that as the rich got taxed less, the standard of living for the average american has fallen?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Sorry, your strawman infrastructure arguement is completely invalid. PRIVATE industry built and maintain most infrastrustuce in the United States, not the government.

This could be the biggest lie I have ever seen posted on ATS, and I have seen some whoppers. Private Industry built the roads, but who paid them??

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Well Augustus, I guess you would have hated living in the most prosperous times in American history, right after WWII, when the wealthy were taxed even more than they are now.

First off, I never said I hated living in the United States so stop being dramatic. Secondly I was not alive right after World War II and I am not quite sure how you may have arrived at that demtermination.

Back when 1 income could support a family, buy a house, a car, and a vacation every year.

Why is it that as the rich got taxed less, the standard of living for the average american has fallen?

Good question. Why has my middle class standard of living fallen? Maybe my higher property taxes had something to do with it...

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
This could be the biggest lie I have ever seen posted on ATS, and I have seen some whoppers. Private Industry built the roads, but who paid them??

Stop being disengenious. I listed infrastructure above that was paid for by private industry, roads were not among them (which incidentally are supposed to be funded by your federal gasoline tax). How is that working?

Originally posted by ldyserenity
First of all, it isn't your money, it's the banks money really, they just allow some of us to have some of it...
Well there's really nothing else to say after that. Not really.

Semantics. If I were trading colored rocks and shells with my former customers I would still have to pay the same income and property taxes.

Many poor like myself have had to take out money from retirment savings. This comes with a early withdrawl penalty. Thus the poor are taxed more. This is not fair. Millionaires get free medical care while the poor die.

Originally posted by earthdude
Millionaires get free medical care...

Really? This is a new one to me.

WHY ARE WE PUNISHING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUCCESSFUL? IT IS THE AMERICAN DREAM TO BE ABLE TO OWN A BUSINESS, WORK FOR A DECENT WAGE, BUY A HOME, HAVE WEALTH. IT IS A POSSIBILITY, NOT A RIGHT.
IF WE CONTINUE TO PICK ON THE SUCCESSFUL WHO WILL GIVE TO CHARITIES? WHO WILL FINANCE NEW IDEAS? WHO WILL WE HAVE AS ROLE MODELS? THE GOVERNMENT GIVES MONEY TO NON-CITIZENS SO IT IS BUSINESSES WHO PROVIDE MONEY TO CITIZENS FOR HIGHER EDUCATION.
THE GOVERNMENT RUNS THE POST OFFICE, THE IRS, THE RAILROADS, ETC AND LOOK AT THEIR SUCCESS RATE. IT IS INDIVIDUALS WHO STICK THEIR NECKS OUT TO PRODUCE AND DO WELL AND THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO PUT A STOP TO THIS DREAM.
I FEEL LIKE I WANT TO SCREAM.