A lie told often enough becomes the truth!

Great post StoneSkull, it cleared out some issues I had with the grips, while we are now so deep I don�t think we will get any confirmation on this from a mason, but you saying it is good enough for me, my fellow brother in disinformation!

Now it seems to me that they use a lot of energy in the symbolism of death if you betray the masons, perhaps therefore the confusion that you get killed if you quit, I also noted that they use a code with the grip I always thought that the grip was enough.
So lets say two people who didn�t know each other met (both masons) how would they know which grip to do, my problem is, if its an apprentice vs. a master they will not make the same grip that must cause some confusion?
Or perhaps they only use the grips in the lodge and temples?

Also I read this article in a Danish magazine called illustrated science, where they wrote about many old books being found in old prayer books and bibles were monks had erased the original text and replaced with prayers and such.
These books were originally written by people like Archimedes, Aristoleles, Menander, Sofolkes and Tacitus some of these were thought lost by the world, now my theory goes like this, perhaps they were ordered to erase the scriptures so we in the future world would not be able to read the works of these great Comedians, Poets, Writers, Historians and Scientist?
Any input would be appreciated.
Also the work I am referring to in particular is the work of method learning by Archimedes.

Bilbo

[edit on 1-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]

One of the first parts of the Illuminati network that new researchers discover is the group of organisations which connect into the British-based secret society called The Round Table.

These include the Bilderberg Group, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Club of Rome. See illustration:



This network is not the most powerful expression of the Illuminati. There are many more elite groups within its web, but these "Round Table" organisations are a key part of its day to day manipulation of politics, banking, business, the military (especially NATO), "education", and so on.

The Round Table was created in London (the Illuminati's operational centre) in the latter years of the 19th century. Its first official "leader" was Cecil Rhodes, the man who mercilessly manipulated Southern Africa and took those lands from the black peoples. Although, in theory, black people are back in political control of Africa, the real decisions are still made by the European and American elites via their black puppet presidents and leaders. "Independence" is an illusion.

Rhodes played tribe against tribe until they destroyed each other in war, so allowing Rhodes and the British to take over. The same is happening today in the continuing wars in Africa. Rhodes said the goal of the Round Table was to create World Government controlled by Britain (the Illuminati based in Britain).

When he died in 1902, he left money in his will to fund "Rhodes Scholarships" in which overseas students had their expenses paid to study at Oxford University - the centre of the Illuminati's manipulation of "education". The ratio of these "Rhodes Scholars" who go back to their countries to enter positions of political, economic, and media power is enormous compared with the general student population. They act as Illuminati agents. The most famous Rhodes Scholar in the world today is Bill Clinton, the two-times President of the United States. But while Rhodes was the official front man for the Round Table, the real controllers and funders were, and are, the House of Rothschild, the banking dynasty which is at the heart of so much of the global conspiracy. This is not an anti-Jewish remark because the Rothschilds claim to be Jewish. The Rothschilds have manipulated Jewish people more than any other.

The inner elite of this Round Table in the US and UK were the key members of their government's war administrations before and during the First World War.. As is provable with documentation, they worked together to engineer the circumstances that led to that global conflict. Through their technique of create-the-problem-then-offer-the-solution, they wanted to destroy the global status quo with that war and therefore have the opportunity to re-draw the world in their agenda's image when the conflict was over. This is precisely what they did.

Power in the world was in far fewer hands after the war than before, and this was advanced even further when they engineered the Second World War also. This has continued to this day and, indeed, is getting quicker all the time.

In 1919, came the Versailles Peace Conference near Paris when the elite of the Round Table from Britain and the United States, people like Alfred Milner, Edward Mandel House, and Bernard Baruch, were appointed to represent their countries at the meetings which decided how the world would be changed as a result of the war these same people had created. They decided to impose impossible reparations payments on Germany, so ensuring the collapse of the post-war Weimar Republic amid unbelievable ecomonic collapse and thus create the very circumstances that brought Hitler (a Rothschild) to power. It was while in Paris that these Illuminati, Round Table, members met at the Hotel Majestic to begin the process of creating the Bilderberg-CFR-RIIA-Trilateral Commission network. They also decided at Versailles that they now all supported the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. EVERY ONE of them was either a Rothschild bloodline or was controlled by them.

The American President, Woodrow Wilson, was "advised" at Versailles by Colonel House and Bernard Baruch, both Rothschild clones and leaders of the Round Table in the United States; The British Prime Minister, Lloyd George, was "advised" by Alfred Milner, Rothschild employee and Round Table leader, and Sir Phillip Sassoon, a direct decendent of Mayer Amschel Rothschild, the founder of the dynasty; The French leader, Georges Clemenceau, was "advised" by his Minister for the Interior, Georges Mandel, whose real name was Jeroboam Rothschild.

Who do you think was making the decisions here??

As a result of their secret meetings at the Hotel Majestic, The Royal Institute of International Affairs was founded in London in 1920, the Council on Foreign Relations followed in 1921, and then came the Bilderberg Group (1954), the Club of Rome (1968) and the Trilateral Commission (1973). These are dominated by the Rothschilds and Rockefellers, and major manipulators like Henry Kissinger, who, in turn, answer to higher powers in the Illuminati.

These organisations have among their number the top people in global politics, business, banking, military, media, "education" and so forth. These are the channels through which the same global policies are co-ordinated outside of public knowledge through apparently unconnected countries, political parties, and institutions. The upper levels of secret societies like the Freemasons, Knights of Malta, etc., connect into this Round Table web also.

Let's look at this picture again:



You can see that the Round Table is up there, and at the centre of of most global political activity. The Round Table is only just under the Olympians (Committee of 300) and the Black Nobility.

Getting there...

If any of that were true, and the groups and individuals you speak of were that powerful, do you honestly believe that such a detailed, specific flowchart as the previous post's could be accurate? It's creative...without a doubt, but how could it possibly be accurate.


Freemasons, they're all squared away guys.

we have a quite detailed explanation of it all, if you read this thread you will understand what we mean.

Originally posted by stoneskull
Yeah, the 32nd degree is a graduation (and you get given the book "Morals and Dogma"). To receive the 33rd, a further initiation (like the 4th is into Scottish Rite Masonry) you have to be chosen by other 33rds. This is when they've decided you've done some great task politically or socially they deem worthy of the title.

Nope. Wrong! Sorry. No cigar! The 32nd Degree is NOT a graduation. It's one of the degrees that EVERY U.S. Scottish-Rite Mason receives. (The system works differently in some countries) but in the U.S.A. when a Mason joins the Scottish Rite he receives the 4th - 32nd Degrees either in full or by "communication" (too much time involved in conferring ALL of them, but he is admonished to study all of them) BUT he is NOT (as you stated) given a copy of Morals & Dogma. M&D is out of print (except for Kessinger Pub. Co.'s poor paper-back reprint which ANYONE can buy) There are TONS of copies of M&D out there (I have about 25 copies in my library that I give to interested friends and Masons). Also ONLY in the Southern Jurisdiction USA was M&D EVER given out. It refers only to the degrees of the Southern Jurisdiction and outside of that jurisdiction, M&D and Albert Pike himself is hardly known. Today SJ members are given the book "A Bridge to Light" by Rex Hutchens (33rd Degree) which can ALSO be purchased by ANYONE who wants to log onto the Supreme Council-Southern Jurisdiction's web-site and buy it.

The 33rd, as you state, IS further initiation. Given for service to Masonry or the community in general and is by unanimous vote of the Supreme Council. The Knight Commander of the Court of Honor (K.C.C.H.) is also given in this manner (ONLY in the Southern Jurisdiction...no KCCH's in other jurisdictions...Pike came up with that honorary title) and from KCCH's the 33rds are chosen.

By the way, I loved the pictures of grips, signs, etc. that you gleaned from the internet. ...but I wouldn't try to use them to attend a Lodge meeting. We Masons check for current dues cards at the door when a stranger approaches. Woudn't want an outsider to know what REALLY goes on in there.

I read a book about Pike called "The Man Behind the Myth" (Loaned to me by a 33rd in fact, given to him by another 33rd, and past Grand Master of Ohio.)

Anyway, the book - focuses on Pike as a person, and not his masonic philosophies strictly.

He was a quite an intriguing individual, and actually way ahead of his time in the field of human rights and equality.

It's a good read if you get the chance.

You know, I don't know about the rest of you here, but don't you find it a tad... pathetic, these guys that run around trying to learn and "expose" the secrets of masonry? As IF any of this would convice a real mason that they faker was a mason... also, if you are an honorable person, why would you WANT to impersonate someone/something you are not?

I will not discuss the images posted, to confirm or deny, with my obligation to the fraternity clearly in my mind... but I do find it kind of sad that you really think that means of recognition are the real secrets of masonry...

And to spend the time looking for and reposting images that someone, some stranger, on the internet, for g-d's sake (!!) claims are real... I mean, get a life...

What ever Theron Dung go jump in a lake or something.

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
What ever Theron Dung go jump in a lake or something.

What the hey, NH? One minute, you're soft and kind, the next you're dumping on people? Why, say I, why?

On another note, I had this season's first Lodge meeting tonight! Yaay! I could hardly believe the positiveness of being in Lodge, after the negativity of posting on this board all the time (no offense meant to ATS -- but it's too much work for me trying to deal with all this hatred and these lies).

That being said, I've decided to force myself off of ATS for a while. It's a temptation to look and post, but what do I really achieve other than making myself feel bad?

For all the Masons on the board, I would love to see any of you at my Grand Lodge's Spring Masonic Workshop (you can read about it at www.freemasons.ab.ca...). Three members here know my real e-mail adress. If you want it, post a message saying so and I'm sure one of them will figure it out with you. If any of you want to visit Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, drop me a line... at very least, I can provide you a couch to sleep on.

Finally, if you're not a Mason and have a genuine question, once again, ask for my e-mail address.

Hope you all continue well!

You are right AK perhaps it was uncalled for but when some one calls me a looser and says that I am pathetic it just makes me tick.

On another note, I had this season's first Lodge meeting tonight! Yaay! I could hardly believe the positiveness of being in Lodge, after the negativity of posting on this board all the time (no offense meant to ATS -- but it's too much work for me trying to deal with all this hatred and these lies).

True Ak that I can relate to, we all get a bit tired some times, also we should perhaps take a different approach to each other, I feel that we sometimes try to convince each other instead of listening!
This goes both ways so lets use our ears (eyes) more than we use our mouth (fingers).

That being said, I've decided to force myself off of ATS for a while. It's a temptation to look and post, but what do I really achieve other than making myself feel bad?

Again you are right, but I say lets vote for a truce, and perhaps learn some thing else about each other, I would like some philosophical debates or scientific as I also dig that, what do you say?

Hope you all continue well!

You to mate, and if I were a mason I would visit your lodge, ( no get into lodge free card?)

Bilbo

Bilbo, I did not call you pathetic or a loser, I wrote that folks that seem to feel a ned to expose the "secrets" are pathetic, as if knowing the means of recognition would suddenly make you a mason, or grant you something, or enable you to fool anyone... and I asked, why an honorable man would WANT to try to fool someone into believing he is something he is NOT.

Are YOU intent on trying to fool masons into believing you are a mason? If not, then the comments were not directed to you. If you are, then they were.

Further, the REAL secrets of masonry are NOT the means of recognition, and you will never find them published... you only find them out by being a mason.

Sorry.

Are YOU intent on trying to fool masons into believing you are a mason? If not, then the comments were not directed to you. If you are, then they were.

Roger roger then apologize for the flaming I misunderstood you

Bilbo

Senrak, thanks for clearing that up. You're right about Morals and Dogma not being given to 32� graduates. I got that wrong. It is considered "required reading" among other books though.

The 32� is a graduation. Not every Scottish Rite Mason gets it, like you say, as you can only get 32� after 31�, and 31� after 30�, etc.

I'm not interested in faking being a member, I'm interested in information. I find it interesting that you have "current dues cards", I hadn't heard of that.. is that like a membership card?

See, I call myself a gnostic agnostic, a theist atheist. I like reading about religions and philosophy, politics and history, from a student's point of view. I'm interested in Freemasonry as I'm interested in Scientology, or Buddhism or Christianity, or Communism or Fascism.. I love learning.

I don't want to join any of these clubs, I can do my own thinking. My mind does not need programming from anyone, and I don't want to be programmed. I want to know all philosophies before saying I'm an atheist, but I'm not a Gnostic either, nor a Nihilist, but I'm not agnostic as I'm interested in gnosticism.

This big piece of dust, the third out from the Sun, goes round and round and round, and down on the surface of the dust are little dust mites fighting and feuding over which club is the best, which god is the best, who's the smartest, who's the richest, who's the toughest. Funny little dust mites.

Who's pathetic?

Originally posted by stoneskull
Senrak, thanks for clearing that up. You're right about Morals and Dogma not being given to 32� graduates. I got that wrong. It is considered "required reading" among other books though.

It is NOT considered ANYTHING anymore. It is not even distributed.

The 32� is a graduation. Not every Scottish Rite Mason gets it, like you say, as you can only get 32� after 31�, and 31� after 30�, etc.

Wrong. As has been explained before, if you get the 14th degree, you get the 32nd. It is NOT a graduation, it is just another of the degrees.

I'm not interested in faking being a member, I'm interested in information. I find it interesting that you have "current dues cards", I hadn't heard of that.. is that like a membership card?

Sort of.

See, I call myself a gnostic agnostic, a theist atheist. I like reading about religions and philosophy, politics and history, from a student's point of view. I'm interested in Freemasonry as I'm interested in Scientology, or Buddhism or Christianity, or Communism or Fascism.. I love learning.

Well, I understand wanting to learn, but can you not see how... irritating it would be to men that have sworn an oath to have folks TRY to reveal the things they have sworn to forever conceal and never reveal? Also, as a side note, freemasonry is NOT a religion, and I kind of resent being lumped in with religions and communism and fascism...

I don't want to join any of these clubs, I can do my own thinking.

No one is suggesting that you join groupthink, thats certainly NOT what masonry is about, but if you want to know the secrets of masonry, you have to BE a mason. Your search in the pages and web will not teach you anything from masonry, but will give you a false impression that you have learned something.

My mind does not need programming from anyone, and I don't want to be programmed. I want to know all philosophies before saying I'm an atheist, but I'm not a Gnostic either, nor a Nihilist, but I'm not agnostic as I'm interested in gnosticism.

Well, that's just fine. Neither I nor any mason are trying to force you into some little definition box, in fact, I haven't seen anyone even ask you what your theism is... that is not masonic, but trying to wrest information, or more accurately, knowledge that you do not want to earn is not learning.

This big piece of dust, the third out from the Sun, goes round and round and round, and down on the surface of the dust are little dust mites fighting and feuding over which club is the best, which god is the best, who's the smartest, who's the richest, who's the toughest. Funny little dust mites.

Interesting position. Masons have never posted that we are better than anyone else, or that we have a lock on the secret to life. We have A secret to life, and the myriads of historical and contemporary good men in masonry attest to that.

Who's pathetic?

Pathetic is what I have defined. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, toss it aside and ignore it.

Not one mason is here to convert you or anyone else to masonry. We are here, among many different reasons, I think, or at least in my case I know, to provide a voice of reason, a voice of truth against the hatemongers, paranoids and zealots that would defame and slander our fraternity. To give light to those that are seeking or have no clue about masonry. So that we are not defined by the ignorant.

Whether you become a mason or not is irrelevant, to me. It might be important to you, but since you have made up your mind outside of facts, you will never know, and as a result, will never know the secrets of a master mason, but you seem ok with that...

And that's ok with me, too.

Originally posted by stoneskull
Senrak, thanks for clearing that up. You're right about Morals and Dogma not being given to 32� graduates. I got that wrong. It is considered "required reading" among other books though.

The 32� is a graduation. Not every Scottish Rite Mason gets it, like you say, as you can only get 32� after 31�, and 31� after 30�, etc.

I'm not interested in faking being a member, I'm interested in information. I find it interesting that you have "current dues cards", I hadn't heard of that.. is that like a membership card?

See, I call myself a gnostic agnostic, a theist atheist. I like reading about religions and philosophy, politics and history, from a student's point of view. I'm interested in Freemasonry as I'm interested in Scientology, or Buddhism or Christianity, or Communism or Fascism.. I love learning.

I don't want to join any of these clubs, I can do my own thinking. My mind does not need programming from anyone, and I don't want to be programmed. I want to know all philosophies before saying I'm an atheist, but I'm not a Gnostic either, nor a Nihilist, but I'm not agnostic as I'm interested in gnosticism.

This big piece of dust, the third out from the Sun, goes round and round and round, and down on the surface of the dust are little dust mites fighting and feuding over which club is the best, which god is the best, who's the smartest, who's the richest, who's the toughest. Funny little dust mites.

Who's pathetic?

I guess you can call it a graduation if you like. It's a degree...and in the USA if you join the Scottish Rite (unless you die during the conferral) you GET the 4th - 32nd Degrees inclusive. You'll never meet a Scottish Rite Mason (in the USA) who is an 11th Degree Mason or a 19th Degree Mason or a 26th Degree Mason. If he's Scottish Rite...he's AT LEAST a 32nd. He could be a 33rd..but at the very least he's a 32nd Degree member. So you see, it's really not that big a deal when someone says "I'm a 32nd Degree Mason" Any Master Mason (3rd Degree) in good standing (dues paid-up) can petition and join the Scottish Rite and receive the 4th-32nd Degrees. What he does WITH the Degrees is up to him...as one gets out of Masonry ONLY what one puts in.

Yes a dues card is a "membership" card..issued each year upon receipt of current dues...checked at the door if a Brother is unknown to members of the Lodge, Chapter, Council, Consistory, etc.

I'm glad you like to learn and contrary to what you say (or at least the condescending way you said it) Masonry doesn't "program" anyone...no matter what you might think about it. You like to think for yourself? Good. You should. Masonry also encourages her members to do the same. She doesn't force-feed anyone. Yet, Masonry still isn't for everyone. We don't want EVERY man to be a Mason. We don't want to take over the world as the Nave Necros says. We don't steal girl-friends or vandalize toilets (at least we're not supposed to)

Your bit about dust mites and being pathetic ...curious...very curious.... You must spend a lot of time alone....



[edit on 2-9-2004 by senrak]

theron dunn and senrak,

Listen, I wasn't talking about Masonry specifically, but yes, I do group it in with the other clubs out there, whether they group around a book, a system, god, or whatever. I'm sure a Scientologist wouldn't like being grouped in with the others, nor a Christian or a Fascist or whoever. They would find it irritating that folks try to learn their secrets as well. I don't think you understood what I was saying, and to me your reaction means as much as the reaction from the Scientologist, the Democrat, the CIA operative or the Dungeons and Dragons GameMaster, you're all club members to me. I'm talking about ALL of them, Masonry included but not exclusively nor even proportionally greater, and not just the few I mentioned, the few I "lumped together" as you say. They all have some sort of program, or they wouldn't exist. And my post is a whole, I resent having it chopped into sentences.

University students graduate, but not after the first semester. They start at the beginning and work their way up to graduation. Does a Mason study the degrees out of order?

Pathetic is what I have defined.

Again, I don't think you understand my point, as you're taking it personally against your particular club. "Who's pathetic?" was a rhetorical question based on the human species itself, as a whole, not Masons.

It�s called a dungeon and dragons DUNGEON MASTER!

YOU ARE A MIF StoneSkull, DONT MISQUOTE MY RELIGION!

Read this book and you will understand more behind the secret of the universe, now before you can buy this book you have to be in our little secret DM club we only allow men because we are ugly and we have unclean skin.

Dungeon Masters Guide


Ps: it�s what they do StoneSkull they dissect it because the cant see the whole thing they see the letters and the words not the meaning.




[edit on 2-9-2004 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

Ps: it�s what they do StoneSkull they dissect it because the cant see the whole thing they see the letters and the words not the meaning.

Wow, Bilbo, you been reading my posts? That is EXACTLY what I have been saying about people that criticize masonry based on teh writings of Manley Hall, Albert Pike and others, and what the bible refers to as: they have eyes but cannot see...

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Also I found this link, it spooks me a bit any of you masons know this?

tgaotu.uneven.us...

Originally posted by NeonHelmetJust an image but it must have been put there for a reason!
The Great Architect Of The Universe I think it stands for and isn�t that a Masonic saying for God? And it doesn�t SPOOK me I just find it weird to make and pay for a homepage with just this image, I am having some "friends" check it out I believe perhaps there is a backdoor in, but this is just speculation.

Oh, my goodness - people here are always wanting someone else to do the work for them.

There's nothing special about that site. Here's some facts for you:

Whois reports that the domain "uneven.us" is owned by R. Yates of Martinsburg, West Virginia. The phone number and email address of this person are readily available. The site appears to be run by a music producer from the Washington, DC area. (Wait - isn't that where the Grand Lodge is!?!? Maybe you are on to something!

)

The "subdomain" tgaotu.uneven.us doesn't cost any extra money.

A quick scan of the site turns up a message board (a very unpopular one, judging by the post counts), and this forum: TGAOTU/OTO/GNOSTICS. Inside that forum is a post that the owner is creating a new domain for that topic.

And guess what the domain is? www.TGAOTU.com... !! Oooh - spooky!

A whois of that domain reveals it's the same registrant as the main site.

The above information would appear to link the domain owner with the main user, but the hometowns are different, so I hesitate to make that distinction.

It appears the site owner may also be a racist skinhead. I base this on cross-referencing the domain registration information to email addresses in Usenet posts, and finding these.

So, given your dislike of some Jews, maybe you can use that as a common ground, and just talk to the site owner about what his site is about, rather than speculating about the secret and spooky nature of his website.

Thx though relating me to Nazis makes me a little mad, I have no problem with Jews I have a problem with the Rothschild�s, but I think you tried to be funny so I wont take this any further.

Really good job I will investigate further though I don�t think it is anything.