A lie told often enough becomes the truth!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Thx though relating me to Nazis makes me a little mad, I have no problem with Jews ...

I was just making a clever reference to your original comment in the first post of this thread:

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
... 99% of the Jews I have no problem with ...

Anyway, from what I could see, there's probably nothing special to be learned by that particular website, so you can spend your time on better topics ...

Just thread-hopping

Great pics-

The masonic shakes and all

Was that the 'lion's grip?'

I don't know about all the star and pentagram stuff on the street maps- will have to think that through. The other stuff is good, as close as you're going to get and much better than most masons could do.

Pike is kind of an embarrassment to masons other than those that apologize for him.

Clausen's book was given out last 'I knew' Pike's was kind of hidden in the lodges. He was such a racist and one-worlder type masonry didn't really want his name spouted around. Clausen was much sneakier.

Good job guys-

Actually, Wr. Br. Pike is NOT an embarrasment to masons... what IS embarrassing is how masonic critics take his words out of context and try to twist them, only to have them thrown back in your teeth with the full context included.

It must hurt like the very dickens to be made to look the fool like that EVERY SINGLE TIME...


you see, many of us have actually READ the book, and are not simply copying and pasting in someone else's criticism, so we understand the context, where the copy and paster does not...

keep up the good work, though, there, Michael... you are still making masonry look good.

nomore3579 indeed!

Originally posted by theron dunn
Actually, Wr. Br. Pike is NOT an embarrasment to masons...
It must hurt like the very dickens to be made to look the fool like that EVERY SINGLE TIME...

you see, many of us have actually READ the book, and are not simply copying and pasting in someone else's criticism, so we understand the context, where the copy and paster does not...

Well, we'll deal more fully with Bro. Pike, you may want to check out what some of your bros. have posted before you get your leg stuck. It's not my intention to embarrass or insult anyone, theron- the truth from the mason- spin artists would do nicely.

As to Pike M&D, I fully suspect I read that cover to cover when you were still in swaddling clothes or 'jammies' as the case may be.

Something still puzzles me about (one of) the masonic 'blood oath' thing-

. . . .except for murder and treason . . . .

It seems to me that you, theron and Masonic Light along with a few others do a drum roll that masons are law abiding people and have a masonic trial to kick out masons found guilty of felonies. I just don't believe you guys./shrug\
Maybe it's a misunderstanding on my part, but what has been posted, well it rings as duplicitous. I have been wrong.

I would ask Masonic Light but, well he seems a little �testy�? I have read the stuff about the Fez being lined with tin-foil inside and all that, maybe he needs a new wrap or something? I'm sure he keeps it away from moisture- that blood-red color* must run simply awful.

*you know the myth about this, right?

You are up yourself theron dunn. There's a picture within the Washington DC map that looks uncannily like your avatar, and you "don't see the significance"; a quote from Albert Pike about freemasonry you take out of context and then try to say he was really talking about Knights Templar, which was not the point of the post at all - the point was that the first three degrees of Masonry are not the whole of Masonry. You should read what is actually written, instead of what you assume is meant. Just stop assuming altogether. It's embarrassing you.


[edit on 4/9/04 by stoneskull]

Gadfly,

America was shaped by Masons. Masons were responsible for the very documents and declarations that guarantee your freedoms. Nearly everything you have, nearly every luxury you enjoy is somehow associated with the works of Masonry. Were there powerful Masons? Are there powerful Masons now? Well, you're right about that, old man. They're probably responsible in some capacity for your pension, veteran's benefits, and your drug plan. And the lawyer who will help execute your will when you finally keel over will probably be a Mason as well. Some of your good friends might be Masons, and of course they wouldn't tell you (the oath, and all), and perhaps some of your family members were also Masons. Time to take out your address book, put on those bifocals and start weeding people out, using your special brand of blanket condemnation. Have a look at your family tree as well . . . .

Masons are everywhere, and the kicker is, Grandpa, you can't know for sure who they are.

Masons: Keeping America beautiful . . . . anonymously.

Originally posted by LTD602
Gadfly,

America was shaped by Masons.

I can't even read the rest (I will off-line )

America is an idea, a thing of man's creation with God, his creator. The people that fought and died during the great rebellion were responsible for America- Tomas Paine was responsible, but for Washington and a very few others none were masons!

The Declaration of independence did NOT create or form America. The Constitution certainly did not.

A thing, an inspiration reached down and touched a few brave souls that went into harms way so that others could have a new beginning. It wasn't about taxes, it wasn't about the formation of the the triumvirate branches of government it wasn't even about the Bill of Rights.

The masons, their fellow conspirators failed. Washington refused to join in to what was decided and the conspirators certainly didn't want the soldiery to find out what they had planned.

So, the Declaration of Independence was written and it was a little milk-toasty. The Constitution was written, and re-written (after the Articles of Confederation died) over and over again. Delegates walked out. Delegates threatened to �tell the soldiers!'

The founding fathers finally realized that they would have to draw on the very best that man (not masonry as many false brag and craw) had produced. The ideals that were distilled to an agreement was purely American.

To claim ownership to such a creation as a new thing from God is hypocrisy at its worst. Inspiration comes from something greater than ourselves,. Do not let anyone tell you that man acting in and of himself can create something new and beautiful that breathes a life different than has ever existed.

Why belittle something greater than us for the sake of a momentary joy? This is not the stuff of reason or honest thought.

This is pure and dishonest arrogance.

The Constitution has no father among man. Let he that so claims patrimony hide himself from shame!

Masons and a lot of other types really get me rilled over this.

The Communist manifesto was created by man-

The constitution was written based on masonic ideals. The Declaration was written based on masonic ideals. Nine signers of the Declaration were masons. Thirteen signers of the Constitution were masons. Many signers of the articles of confederation were masons.

You can deny the obvious, that this country was founded on masonic principles all you like, but the plain truth is that it was. The list of masons involved in forming this country includes many of the great names: Paul Revere, George Washington, Nathan Hale, John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, Marquie du La Fayette, among others.

So who is the historical revisionist,there, gadfly?

Stoneskull, if you haven't read M&D, you are just showing ignorance about what was written. I have read it, twice, and have a copy by the computer to ready reference when folks that do not understand it post BS about it. You may not like the fact that I am able to cite it in context, and show the fallacious nature of the post about it, but there you go... seeking truth isn't easy, espeically for the biggot that just wants to hate without facts, like gadfly here, who keeps getting facts shoved up his nose and made to look the fool.

But I am okay with makikng masonic critics look silly... actually, they make themselves look silly... I just help them along. Perhaps if they put away the sharp sticks before they hurt themselves life would be better, but I just deal with the cards as they are dealt...

life is good!

"Stoneskull, if you haven't read M&D, you are just showing ignorance about what was written. I have read it, twice, and have a copy by the computer to ready reference when folks that do not understand it post BS about it. You may not like the fact that I am able to cite it in context, and show the fallacious nature of the post about it, but there you go... seeking truth isn't easy, espeically for the biggot that just wants to hate without facts, like gadfly here, who keeps getting facts shoved up his nose and made to look the fool.

But I am okay with makikng masonic critics look silly... actually, they make themselves look silly... I just help them along. Perhaps if they put away the sharp sticks before they hurt themselves life would be better, but I just deal with the cards as they are dealt..."

...

you're up yourself. and still assuming. you have twice as many ears as you do mouths but it seem you use them half as much.

was i posting BS about it? did i even make any sort of analysis to go along with the post? i thought it spoke for itself in regard to the point that masonry is more than the first three degrees.

good for you that you've read "morals and dogma", and hear it is (again) for anyone else that would like to read it:

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

or if you don't use java:

www.illuminati-news.com...

i think the chapter list on its own shows clearly enough that there is more to masonry than the blue lodge degrees.

Gadfly,

Waxing poetic won't change the truth. Have a look for yourself. PEOPLE are responsible for America. Ideas don't walk around on their own.

Masons wrote the documents and declarations that guaarntee your freedoms. Without those, America wouldn't be . . . . America. It's about signatories, not "brave souls", or "something greater than ourselves." By the way, those "brave souls" fought for Masonic ideals.

No need to take our word for it. Look it up.

By the way, one of America's LIBERTARIAN heroes, Noam Chomsky, says he doesn't know much about Freemasonry, has no real opinion, but doubts they have the kind of power people ascribe to them. Pretty reasonable.

Here's a link, with just some info on some of the Foundnig Fathers, signers of the Constitution, and Cntinental Army Generals, who were Masons. I'm especially impressed with the Constitutional numbers:

www.bessel.org...

This topic might even deserve its own thread.




[edit on 5-9-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 5-9-2004 by LTD602]

Hey, Pike wrote his OPINIONS, and they are interesting and wonderful, though I do not agree with him on all his positions.

Sly slander does nothing for your position, by the way, and neither do ad homenim attacks. I have posted the facts, after you conveniently quoted out of context, and I provided my opinion on the material I quoted.

You did not. Now, personally attacking me does little to support your position, as the facts are, after all, the facts.

Now, would you like to have a try in the ADULT manner? Analyze what he wrote, tell me what YOU think it meant, then stand by to defend your position. That is the adult and intelligent thing to do... personally attacking me simply shows the deficeit in your "argument".

but really, thanks for playing.

LTD
Gadfly,

Waxing poetic won't change the truth. Have a look for yourself. PEOPLE are responsible for America. Ideas don't walk around on their own.

Masons wrote the documents and declarations that guaarntee your freedoms. Without those, America wouldn't be . . . . America. It's about signatories, not "brave souls", or "something greater than ourselves." By the way, those "brave souls" fought for Masonic ideals.

Signatures alone guarantee nothing. "Power comes from the barell of a gun."

So what about being poetic- ideas inspire people.

Pro-masons make much of the fact that many of the founders were masons- I agree, it is something to be proud of.

To say masons created America is ridiculous.

America is an idea. The world knows of �America.� These are people that couldn't give two squats about masonry, what they do care about is America. The ones that still climb our borders do so for 'the American dream, 'not some masonic philosophy based on pretty rings, necklaces and pointy-toed shoes worn during a secret initiation.

Non-masons built this nation. No nation from the beginning of time has been built upon secrecy and survived.
If America were a masonic place we would be viewed as Rhodesia had been viewed, we are not.
Jefferson �wrote� the Declaration of Independence. This was no masonic document. The lodge to which he belonged had a charter granted from the Grand Lodge in England! It kept this charter even after the rebellion was successful.

To stay with the purpose of ATS-
the French Revolution- deffinately anti-mason was a favorite of Jeffersons.

Proof that the Declaration is NOT masonic-philosphy:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
.
.
do, in the name, and by authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States

These people likewise were 'revolutionary,' yet none claim masonic divinition.

John Locke- "Good and evil, reward and punishment, are the only motives to a rational creature: these are the spur and reins whereby all mankind are set on work, and guided."

Arouet, Marquise du Chatelet, Rousseau , even Frederick the Great impacted the sentiments of the founding fathers.

At at the beginning of revolutionary times the colonies acted before the continent. Masonic �thought� gave birth to neither revolution. That ideas and philosophical argument came from masonic lodges there should be no doubt. These were some of the place learned men met.

But to claim a birth-right duly won by others portrays motives most sinister.

The founding fathers of America never claimed that 'masonism made this possible,' Only many years later when the lodge became filled with vipers upon the body politic did masnory resort to such low claims in an attempt to support it's runious acts against charges of becoming the new oligarchy.

Masonry lied then and it still hasn't dropped this set of fables.

There is no proof that the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States are masonic documents or based upon masonry philosophy, is there?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
There is no proof that the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States are masonic documents or based upon masonry philosophy, is there?

Absolutely there is evidence that would allow any reasonable person to conclude that the above mentioned documents were based on Masonic philosophy.

It is impossible to state with certainty, the number, if any, of the principles laid down in the Masonic constitutions that had their origin in Masonry. It seems reasonable to assume, however, that, since builders were organized into groups or lodges at a very early period in civilized society, they might have originated some of them and certainly aided in their refinement.

The origin of these basic democratic principals of government is not as important as the fact that they had been discovered and were being practiced, after1734, in the area that became the United States. Any serious student of American history and government can identify other institutions practicing some of these same concepts, but probably no other institution was so widely distributed in the colonies as Freemasonry. Differences in religion, government, and economy, difficulties in transportation and communication, and a spirit of localism and individualism existed from north to south from east to west in varying degrees, but the basic principles of Freemasonry were identical in the approximately one hundred colonial lodges established by 1775, not excepting the colonial governments, had so many leaders of the people in thought or in action from the local community level, as were contained in the ranks of Masonry. This general acceptance by a large segment of the leaders of the people of fundamental concepts is significant in the formation of a federal union type of government and becomes doubly so when those leaders are bound to one another by fraternal ties which engender trust and confidence. Events will show that such a condition must exist in America to make union possible, even under the threat of common dangers.

The first ideas of a union of the English colonies were no doubt conceived as a defensive measure against hostile Indians, the Dutch in New Amsterdam, the French in Canada, and possibly the Spanish in Florida. Such proposed unions were regional in character and their effectiveness was related to the degree of danger felt by the colonists. The New England Confederation was formed in 1643 but ceased to function within a few years. In 1697, William Penn called a conference of the twelve governors of the colonies; they discussed the creation of a common army, currency, and mint, but the only definite action taken was the creation of a postal system under a Postmaster General for North America. Other suggestions for the formation of a union were made in 1698 and 1701 but no action followed. In 1722, Daniel Coxe, the first Provincial Grand Master of New England outlined a plan of union in the preface of his Descriptions of Carolina "which strikingly resembled the scheme submitted by Franklin to the Albany Convention." (24)

The Albany Congress was called by the Board of Trade in September, 1753, to meet at Albany, New York, on June 19, 1754, for the purpose of trading with the Indians and making plans for the defense of the colonies against the French who were challenging British expansion into the Ohio Valley. At the appointed time, twenty-five delegates from seven colonies; Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, New York, Connecticut. Pennsylvania, and Maryland---arrived at Albany and began their labors.

It was decided unanimously that a union of the colonies was desirable, and a committee consisting of "Hutchinson of Massachusetts, Hopkins of Rhode Island, Smith of New York, Tasker of Maryland, and Franklin of Pennsylvania"(25)was appointed to draw up a plan of union. Hutchinson, Hopkins, and Franklin are known to have been Masons. Franklin, in particular, was convinced that political union of the American colonies desirable before the meeting of the Albany Congress. On May 9, 1754, Franklin undertook to impress on the readers of the Pennsylvania Gazette the need for united action by printing a one-column, two-inch wood-cut of a snake divided into eight segments, each of which bore the initials of one of the colonies, with the caption "Join or Die." "The cartoon was immediately reproduced in four other newspapers in Boston and New York." (26)

It should come as no surprise that Franklin submitted a plan of union. said to have been outlined while on his way to Albany. The plan provided for a president-general to be appointed by the Crown, and for a grand council to be elected by the colonial assemblies---the identical plan of organization of American Provincial Grand Lodges at that time. The grand council empowered to raise and pay soldiers, to build forts, and to equip vessels to guard the coasts. The necessary funds were to be raised by the grand council which was to have the power to levy taxes and impose general duties---the identical type of general functions as exercised by a Grand Lodge over subordinate lodges. Each colony was to retain it's charter, making only those changes necessary to comply with the formation of the union but leaving the colony government in complete control of local affairs---the federal union idea employed in the relationship of local lodges to Grand Lodges. The plan was not adopted; Franklin explained in his Autobiography that the plan had too much prerogative in it to suit the colonial assemblies and too much democracy to suit the royal government.(27)

Franklin left no hint that he used the constitution of Freemasonry as a model for his Albany Plan but, since he published Anderson's Constitutions in 1734 and had served as Grand Master of the Provincial Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania also in 1734 ,(28) there can be no doubt that he was familiar with the Masonic constitution. The fact that he called the council of representatives of the several colonies a grand council and that the council of the representatives of Masonic lodges is called a Grand Lodge is circumstantial evidence that Masonry was influencing his thinking. In the light of this evidence, the similarity of the two plans of government leads to a reasonable conclusion that the Masonic constitution was used as a model for Franklin's Albany Plan.

It is generally agreed among American historians that had Franklin's Albany Plan been adopted, the American Revolution might never have occurred. The Albany Plan contained the essence of the Constitution of 1789 and the evidence just presented shows that the Albany Plan contained the essence of Masonic ideas on government.

web.mit.edu...

.

PublicGadfly, (Michael Gentry),

YOU write masonry has lied. Please demonstrate any evidence you have of this position.

You write that the country was not founded on the principles found in lodge. Please provide any factual data that you may have to support this, since it is clear to anyone that knows anything about masonry that this country was indeed founded on masonic principles, which did not exist anywhere else in the world.

Also, it is clear from historical evidence that the movers and shakers of the revolution WERE masons, with few exceptions.

More, it is ludicrous to claim the "masonic secrecy" would not prevail... when the evidence is clear that masonry HAS survived and FLOURISHED, despite this secrecy you have your shorts in a twist over...

But, really, thanks for playing. I look forward to your evidence.

Originally posted by theron dunn

You write that the country was not founded on the principles found in lodge.

I request that you show where I posted this- my search abilities apparently are not near the same 'level' as your.

Thanks in advance

mit.edu. Good. Nice post, df1.

You're living in Mason-land, Gadfly.

The very laws and declarations that guarantee your rights and freedoms were written by, among others, MASONS (aka "lying vipers.) MASONS are also counted among your very illustrious national heroes. Masons making America great. You might want to thank them. I'm sure your local Lodge would be happy to accept donations, or failing that, a nice card.



[edit on 5-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

I request that you show where I posted this- my search abilities apparently are not near the same 'level' as your.

Thanks in advance

You asked so I comply:

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
To say masons created America is ridiculous.

America is an idea. The world knows of �America.� These are people that couldn't give two squats about masonry, what they do care about is America. The ones that still climb our borders do so for 'the American dream, 'not some masonic philosophy based on pretty rings, necklaces and pointy-toed shoes worn during a secret initiation.

Non-masons built this nation. No nation from the beginning of time has been built upon secrecy and survived.
If America were a masonic place we would be viewed as Rhodesia had been viewed, we are not.
Jefferson �wrote� the Declaration of Independence. This was no masonic document. The lodge to which he belonged had a charter granted from the Grand Lodge in England! It kept this charter even after the rebellion was successful.

there it is in your own words

Granted, America was/is an "idea" . . . . I'll accept that abstraction.

Both the Declaration and the Constiution are important documents, however, and that's quite an understatment. The principles America was founded on are not only represented by these documets, but are guaranteed by them. Masons were involved in their creation. Not all were Masons, obviously. Still, Masons did sign them, and we can "a priori" deduce that they were involved in their creation to begin with.

So Masons were indeed involved in the building of America. These "vipers", as you call them, put their names to the very documents that guarantee your freedom to pread your opinions far and wide. When I say you owe them thanks (along with the non-Mason signatories), you seem to recoil in horror.

Your posts also downplay the significance of those documents. Without having ideas WRITTEN DOWN for all time, they are utterly worthless when it comes to guaranteeing your basic rights and freedoms.

You sound un-Masonic, which is intentional, obviously. The curiuos part is that you also sound un-patriotic and very un-American.

I hope this is just a misunderstanding on my part.

df1

part of a very nice piece of masonic lore from the Grand Lodge of Texas

Don't doubt what is posted there.
Myth or not?One of the interesting things about the Texas Lodge is that they are not always recognized by other lodges!

I don't know why this is. Some myth about the Texans deciding to adhere to federal race law or some such thing.

Originally posted by theron dunn

You write that the country was not founded on the principles found in lodge.

I request that you show where I posted this- my search abilities apparently are not near the same 'level' as your.

Thanks in advance

theron
You asked so I comply:

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
To say masons created America is ridiculous.

America is an idea. The world knows of �America.� These are people that couldn't give two squats about masonry, what they do care about is America. The ones that still climb our borders do so for 'the American dream, 'not some masonic philosophy based on pretty rings, necklaces and pointy-toed shoes worn during a secret initiation.

Non-masons built this nation. No nation from the beginning of time has been built upon secrecy and survived.
If America were a masonic place we would be viewed as Rhodesia had been viewed, we are not.
Jefferson �wrote� the Declaration of Independence. This was no masonic document. The lodge to which he belonged had a charter granted from the Grand Lodge in England! It kept this
charter even after the rebellion was successful.

there it is in your own words

Right! So where in this short piece do I post what you say I posted?

[edit on 5/9/2004 by PublicGadfly]

Theron wrote the following (not a direct quote, but a good summary of your position):

Originally posted by theron dunn
You write that the country was not founded on the principles found in lodge.

You said the following, which is a direct quote.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
There is no proof that the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States are masonic documents or based upon masonry philosophy, is there?

It appears pretty clear that you expressed the sentiments that threon alluded to in his post. And since I previously refuted your statement with evidence, I believe an admission of your being wrong is in order as well as an apology to theron.
.