A question for believers or 'OSers'....

reply to post by patternfinder


They're behind every corner...

I've met a firefighter who was standing right under the tower and saw the plane, a guy who's sister saw it, a guy who was working in a building who saw it with 50 other folks, one who's family member was a pilot who saw the plane before it hit, and one I can't even remember, and the same guy you met the other day who didn't remember he saw it until he saw it on CNN...even my own sister dated a guy who's best friend died that day.

The power of suggestion is strong in this one.

reply to post by patternfinder


Just cause someone calls something a top down demolition on youtube doesn't make it one... you'll notice the name of the uploader... obviously a truther lying to keep his faith alive... you'll ALSO note the very visible and audible explosions... timed to perfection... none of those quotes come anywhere near anyone describing something like that...

By the way, people hearing things that sound like explosions is NOT the same thing as hearing explosions... go look at the Landmark video and find any witness or any video showing anything remotely like that... cause that's what demos look like...

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by patternfinder

 

Just cause someone calls something a top down demolition on youtube doesn't make it one... you'll notice the name of the uploader... obviously a truther lying to keep his faith alive... you'll ALSO note the very visible and audible explosions... timed to perfection... none of those quotes come anywhere near anyone describing something like that...

By the way, people hearing things that sound like explosions is NOT the same thing as hearing explosions... go look at the Landmark video and find any witness or any video showing anything remotely like that... cause that's what demos look like...

okay, this is getting ridiculous and i will not waste my time with you, the video shows a building being taken down from the top down..period....the charges are set off from the upper floors down, hence, top down...you said that there was no such thing, i proved you wrong, if you don't want to accept it, fine, doesn't matter to me.

reply to post by patternfinder


btw: the old truther BS about no one expecting 7 to fall has been repeatedly debunked...

for example:

Once the fires developed, according to witness accounts and photo evidence gathered in the NIST investigation, there were confirmed fires on at least 16 floors: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 29, and 30.
"The building was fully involved in fire." – Photographer Steve Spak
"I had a clear view down Washington Street of Building Seven, which was on the north edge of the site. All forty-seven stories were on fire. It was wild. The MPs said the building was going to collapse. I said, "Nah, I don't know." And then all of a sudden I watched the building shake like an earthquake hit it, and the building came down." –Ground Zero Superintendant Charlie Vitchers (Glenn Stout, Charles Vitchers, and Robert Gray. Nine Months at Ground Zero. Scribner, 2006 15-16) Note: Vitchers may have only seen the building from the north side. There may not have been visible fires on most floors there. His quote is included to show how impressive the scene was.

First responder accounts
Unless otherwise noted, accounts are from the FDNY oral history transcripts.

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti www.firehouse.com...

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.
–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer graphics8.nytimes.com...

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade www.thememoryhole.org... page 48.
11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. www.thememoryhole.org... page 49

[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]
12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that building and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy

13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."
–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri terrorize.dk...

14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]

15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.

16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors www.thememoryhole.org... page 69

17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.
We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook
(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):
I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.
...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.
He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.
Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way.
Q: Would that be towards West Street?
A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west]
–Firefighter Gerard Suden

18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "**** 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan

19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy

20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." nymag.com...

21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations.
–Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon

22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury

23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. www.thememoryhole.org... page 26

24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent www.pbs.org...

25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

27. The 7 World Trade Center was roaring. All we could think is we were an Engine Company, we have got to get them some water. We need some water you know. With that, we positioned the rig, I don't know, 3 quarters of a block away maybe. A fire boat was going to relay water to us. I don't know if I have things in the right order, whatever, if we were getting water out of a hydrant first. Jesus Christ --
Q. Captain said you were getting water. You were draining a vacuum?
A. It was draining away from us. Right. We had to be augmented. I think that's when the fire boat came. I think the fire boats supplied us. Of course you don't see that. You just see the (inaudible) way and you know, we are hooking up and we wound up supplying the Tower Ladder there. I just remember feeling like helpless, like everybody there was doomed and there is -- I just felt like there was absolutely nothing we could do. I want to just go back a little bit.–Firefighter Kevin Howe

28. "When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6. (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. P. 103)

29. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002.)
30. 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica www.firehouse.com...
31. So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed.
–PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim www.911report.com...

32. We could hear fires crackling. We didn’t know it at the time, but No. 7 World Trade Center and No. 5 World Trade Center were immediately adjacent to us and they were roaring, they were on fire. Those were the sounds that we were hearing. ...At the same time, No. 5 World Trade Center, No. 6 World Trade Center and No. 7 World Trade Center were roaring. They were on fire. And they were right next to us. So we have all that smoke that we’re dealing with.
–FDNY Capt. Jay Jonas archive.recordonline.com...

reply to post by patternfinder


You're kidding right?

One completely gutted barge all of three stories tall with a very slight time delay between the floors, no evidence that it wasn't an accidental delay, no other evidence ANYWHERE of top down demos and the only account that hosts the video, other than MSNBC, (which btw, doesn't call it a down down demo) are two truthers... who have decided... basically for no reason, that this was a PLANNED top down demo... not a timing error... and because I don't immediately go.. oh yeah, that's rock solid evidence, I'm a truther again, you say, "that's it, you're unreasonable, I'm done"... big surprise...

There's literally 4 dozen demos of big buildings online, prolly more... go find another...

then go find any demo company or engineers talking about them.. you won't.

Or, just keep believing your lies.

btw: here's the contact details for the company that blew up that barge:

www.prcenviro.com...

why not email them and ask about its demo?

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by patternfinder

 

btw: the old truther BS about no one expecting 7 to fall has been repeatedly debunked...

There is a difference between someone saying a building is going to collapse, and one collapsing symmetrically into its own footprint, evidenced by all four outer wall being on top of the rest of the collapsed building, an impossibility from a natural collapse.

There was no precedent for someone to claim the building would collapse completely into its footprint, because its never happened before, and I can guarantee will never happen again. If there is no precedent then what did they base that claim on? How can someone claim something will happen when there is no history of that phenomena to base that claim on?

Unless of course they knew it was wired with explosives, but that is just speculation of course. But obviously when people said it was going to 'blow up', that means explosives. A building doesn't 'blow up' from fire. Just like 'pull it' doesn't mean pull the firefighters out.

Originally posted by Yankee451
reply to post by pshea38

 

You go!

It does tick all the boxes, doesn't it...all the answers fall into place, and they apply to almost every thing else too, not just 911.

It's no wonder they consider us cattle, really...I mean if I was on the team of the oppressors, I'd probably think this was amusing as hell to see people chasing their tails for 10 years, and still denying what's right before their eyes.

This is how strong the indoctrination is.

Of course this is wny no one can mention video fakery or no planes without withering derision, not because it's crazy, but because it's true.

Yes Yankee. This is what I believe. If the use of video fakery in ALL 9/11 footage became
public knowledge, most of the terror events of the last 10 years and beyond would be
re-examined with a fine tooth comb and the inevitable falseness of and fakery incorporated
into these psyops would also be exposed.
It would really be earth shattering for those in power, as events like the Madrid and London
Bombings, Mumbai and Tucson Shootings etc. etc., right up to the latest farce of the recent
terror events in Norway, would be seen for what they really are. Revolution would undoubtably
ensue. That is why people are so dismissive. It is a top down directive, for the most part.
They do not even want the notion broached as their fakery efforts are so bad and obvious,
even to the untrained eye, that any investigations would yield immediate results and there
would be immediate and drastic consequences.
I think it is safe to say that anyone denying and ridiculing 9/11 video, photographic and victim
fakery (after study), be they individuals, groups or websites like ATS, are simply not to be
trusted and engaged as they have been 'gotten' to, in one way or another.
There is simply too much at stake for the guilty, and yet, with even with a little investigation
on our part, it becomes oh so f*ing obvious. This is why it is so frustrating. This is also why
I was disappointed in the OP sir_slide who, after I gave him the Cluesforum links, replied
and dismissed the idea of fakery out of hand in record time.

Media Fakery is the rope that will hang the perpetrators.

This is why the SeptemberClues website and forums are so important, as they expose the
falseness of a world so many blindly and unquestioningly swallow for reality.
I, for one, am still glad I know these things, even though it causes me alot of heartache
in my personal relations. My child of 9 knows these truths, and I believe he will be
stronger for it.

Best regards Yankee, and moucho gracias for all your intelligent and passionate writings.

pshea.

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


What are you talking about? The demo of building 7 looked exactly like that. There is even the slight tilt of the top when its almost at the bottom. Fires demolished WTC 7? Did they coincidently died out after the collapse? Show me a pitcure that shows the ruins of WTC 7 engulfed in flames, just one.
This is what engulfed in flames looks like.



"The firemen said it was engulfed in flames, they said they expected it to collapse?"

Which firemen? How do you explain the discrepancy between what the firemen said and what has been captured on video, if they indeed said that.



Where are all those fires then?

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
reply to post by patternfinder

 

btw: the old truther BS about no one expecting 7 to fall has been repeatedly debunked...

There is a difference between someone saying a building is going to collapse, and one collapsing symmetrically into its own footprint, evidenced by all four outer wall being on top of the rest of the collapsed building, an impossibility from a natural collapse.

There was no precedent for someone to claim the building would collapse completely into its footprint, because its never happened before, and I can guarantee will never happen again. If there is no precedent then what did they base that claim on? How can someone claim something will happen when there is no history of that phenomena to base that claim on?

Unless of course they knew it was wired with explosives, but that is just speculation of course. But obviously when people said it was going to 'blow up', that means explosives. A building doesn't 'blow up' from fire. Just like 'pull it' doesn't mean pull the firefighters out.

This is a very good point to bring up I believe, I fail to see any precedent. I understand that one must be set somewhere, but I find it unlikely that the first time this has happened would be on 9/11, just a very large coincidence and someone once said that a coincidence is usually just a bad theory. But more to the point I cannot understand how this theory put forward regarding WTC7 fits, as we have seen throughout the thread people have illustrated the controlled nature of the demolition of said building and how unlikely this scenario really is.

Great point to bring up! I'm glad to return now this dust has settled

reply to post by Cassius666


Also very good points to bring up Cassius! There doesn't seem to be any photos of the ruins engulfed in flames, well i have not seen any yet. The raging inferno needed to take down a building like that would certainly have been captured on film, if we analyze many other fires that have taken down similar buildings we see a different scenario playing out, one that takes far far longer to destroy the building and one that happens in stages, not all at once like we saw on 9/11.

reply to post by sir_slide


There havent been similiar buildings taken down by fire prior or after 911.

reply to post by Cassius666


They were not taken down just by fire. The impact of two airplanes caused massive structural damage. The fires assisted with the collapse but that was not it.

Originally posted by Cassius666
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

 

What are you talking about? The demo of building 7 looked exactly like that. There is even the slight tilt of the top when its almost at the bottom. Fires demolished WTC 7? Did they coincidently died out after the collapse? Show me a pitcure that shows the ruins of WTC 7 engulfed in flames, just one.
This is what engulfed in flames looks like.

"The firemen said it was engulfed in flames, they said they expected it to collapse?"

Which firemen? How do you explain the discrepancy between what the firemen said and what has been captured on video, if they indeed said that.

Where are all those fires then?

edit on 20-8-2011 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)

So you use a video taken before the North Tower collapsed to justify saying there were no fires? That is not honest. How about asking this firefighter:



Why would you use a video that was taken well before the fires fully engulfed the WTC7??

How about this video showing smoke pouring from nearly every window on the South side?





Awful lot of smoke from little fires. I guess day time interior fires are not as spectacular as night time videos of fires.

Originally posted by Cassius666
reply to post by sir_slide

 

There havent been similiar buildings taken down by fire prior or after 911.

If you're talking about the towers there have never been any other similar buildings to the towers, which were unique in their construction... in fact, if you wanted to run an experiment you couldn't have set it up better...

Two building, built exactly the same way, both hit by planes, both with raging fires, both collapse..

If only one had, it'd be a lot MORE puzzling, but...

reply to post by captainnotsoobvious


Every single thing is true. Most of it was talked about during the 9/11 commission but was not add in the final report. Check for yourself. Do research before you call someone a liar.

If you are a guy then you are no man. You are a conformist who blindly follows authority and instructions. A real man questions authority. A real man comes to his own conclusions. Shame on you captain shame on you.

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Originally posted by denyIGNORANCEats11
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious

 

Every single thing is true. Most of it was talked about during the 9/11 commission but was not add in the final report. Check for yourself. Do research before you call someone a liar.

If you are a guy then you are no man. You are a conformist who blindly follows authority and instructions. A real man questions authority. A real man comes to his own conclusions. Shame on you captain shame on you.

Actually that's NOT even vaguely true.

re: Building 7, you claim it "only some tiny fires on a couple of floors collapse demolition style"

All of that is untrue.

You claimed: "The pentagon is one of the most protected and secure buildings in the US. It has missile defense systems that automatically take out incoming targets"

That's completely untrue.

Neither of those claims is substantiated by the facts.

IF you wanna keep claiming them to be true, then you ARE lying..

Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
re: Building 7, you claim it "only some tiny fires on a couple of floors collapse demolition style"

That is not true. I won't accuse you of lying though, you just don't have the education, or experience, to recognize the details of the event to come to a logical conclusion.





It is impossible for a natural collapse to mimic a controlled 'implosion' demolition. The concept is opposite to what would happen naturally, this is why it takes a lot of work, carefully placed and timed explosives. Any mistake and the collapse would not be complete.

examples...





Take good note of these ones, the collapses were initiated by explosives but they arrested, so there goes the once initiated collapse is inevitable BS.





If you did some actual real open minded research, and quite just reading what you want to hear, you will find that what happened to WTC 7 was impossible from a natural collapse.