One dead and some wounded after Bull fighting

Rag doll physics irl What a cruel and reckless activity

reply to post by ArMaP


Even an animal gets lucky at times but if you examine the number of bullfights you will see the animals are killed on a ratio of 99.99% to 1 injury of the Matador if that. It's a rigged match regardless of who enjoys or supports it. Thx for the thread !!

Originally posted by NocturnalPhantom
I was once told by an anti-corrida activist in Malaga that in southern Spain there is also organised crime involvement, though I don't know at what level. Could they own the arenas or farms? Or is there gambling involved?

I think that the most likely is gambling, the farms are mostly owned by old families, many directly or indirectly related to the country's nobility (the same happens in Portugal), because those are the ones owning the big farms, so there's no place for organized crime in there.

The arenas are, as far as I know, mostly owned by the cities or organisations related to the city or the state, at least in Portugal.

Originally posted by Vandalour
Im sure that veterinarian is one sick mother fuc... then

I was talking about Portugal, not Spain or Mexico.

The first video has several things wrong.

First of all, only the animals that are chosen as breeders live the closest to what we can call a "natural" life, all animals bred for food lack "a chance at a happy future".

At 1:25, it says that "bulls are stressed", and in some cases that is true, but most of those I have seen do not even bother to look at the crowd and show no signs of stress. It also says that the bull has its lungs pierced, but that's not supposed to happen, the sword is supposed to hit the heart and kill the bull instantaneously.

At 1:32 it says "how can you call this a sport", but only the anti-bullfight people call it a sport.

At 2:03 it shows an image of a bull tumbling over its head, with the text "Do you really take pride in this?". In what, in a bull tripping on the ground? I have seen that happening several times, it happens when the bull lowers its head too much for the speed it has and for the way it is moving, nobody made it trip.

At 2:28 it says "But when the bull fights back this is what happens..." and that's true, because the bull always fights back (if it's a fighting bull). Then, at 2:52, it says "You get gored... And this is somehow all the bulls fault, its fighting back because you aggrivate them and tortured them. What do we expect?" but that is just not true, when the torero is gored by the bull is never thought the bull's fault, it's considered the bull's natural instinct and is expected that it does that, it's always considered the torero's fault, he is supposed to know how to avoid it.

At 2:58 it says "And so this happens...", as if they kill the bull because they were gored, and that's the most stupid thing the video says, that's the reason behind the whole event (in the Spanish style bullfight).

At 3:17 it says "Why do we get so much pleasure out of hurting God's gifts? Why can't they lead a happy life like this?", and then they show some bulls that I suppose are bred to be eaten, and in that case they would live as long as a bullfight bull.

The second video is much closer to the truth, but it also has some wrong things. When, at 0:50, they say the bull had no chance of wining, that's not really true, in some (rare) cases, the bull can be treated and sent back to the fields.

At 1:15 they say that the sounds and the light terrify and scare the bull, and while may be true in some cases, it's not true in most, even if they are a little scared at the beginning.

At 1:25 they say that when the bull tries to flee by jumping the barriers that this gives the impression that it is fierce, but that's not true, nobody that has watched a few bullfights will see this a sign of fierceness, they see it as a bull trying to go back to the place from where it came from. I have seen some times bulls that do not move away from the doors from where they came and that are sent back to inner corral without "participating" in the bullfight.

After that they say that the natural reaction of a bull is to run away and not to attack, but that's not true either, the bulls used in bullfights are not the same as the tame bulls used on "normal" breeding farms (and the same can be said about the cows, the cows sometimes are even more prone to attack than the bulls).

At 2:00 they talk about the picador's horses, but they forgot to mention that the used of the protections on the horse was only added at the beginning of the 20th century, before that it was normal to have more horses killed than bulls on a Spanish style bullfight. So, even if this is violence against the horse (which it clearly is), it's an improvement when compared with the original version.

At 2:39 they say that the bull's spine is "pierced with a spear to destroy the neck's muscles", and that's obviously not true, if the spice was pierced they would get a paralysed or dead bull (as they say some minutes latter). That destroying of the neck's muscles prevents the bull from moving its head as high as it naturally could, making it easier for the torero and harder for the bull.

As for the baderillas, I don't know how things are in Spain, but in Portugal the maximum size is of the iron point that penetrates the bull's back is 4 cm, we do not have those 8 cm points (and I don't know if in Spain they have them either, as far as I could find the "punishment" is a black baderilla that is only different in colour and considered a shame for the ganadaria from the which the bull came.

While it's true that a bull, after the picador's "treatment" cannot move as well as it could before, it's also true that they are still a powerful animal, capable of killing a man without much effort (as seen in several cases), so while I think that this type of courage is misdirected, it is still courage (or lack of perception of the danger).

At 4:02 we see again that idea that the sword enters the lungs and not the heart. Although that happens in several cases, that's not supposed to happen, the sword (estoque) is supposed to enter directly into the heart, I have seen it done some times (but as I have never watched a full Spanish style bullfight I cannot know in how many cases this happens, but I'm sure that they are many in the case of the best toreros but few in the cases of the thousands of "second rate" or worse toreros). And yes, I can imagine the bull's agony, I was almost dying for lack of air two or three times.

At 4:30, when they talk of the "descabello", they do it in a way that makes people think that the torero is doing it to provoke further punishments to the bull, when in fact he is trying to kill it as fast as possible because he failed at doing it properly at the first attempt. In the "descabello" the torero should pierce the base of the brain (not the spinal cord), killing the bull.

At 5:22 they say that finally the torero steps to the lying bull and stabs it several times in the back of the neck to destroy the bull's spinal cord, but that's not true, what he is trying to do (and only in cases in which the matador couldn't kill the bull) is to give the bull a quicker death by piercing the base of the brain. If he fails at the first time then he tries it a second, third, etc, until he can kill the bull. When he hits the right spot the bulls drops dead instantaneously (I have seen that once).

At 5:37 they say that the bull is dragged while still alive, but I have never read or heard about anything like that, the bull can only leave the arena on its feet or killed. As for the severing of the bull's ears, that only happens if the public finds that the matador gave a very good show, it's not something that happens in all bullfights.

From what they say and show at 6:20, it makes me think that this video was sponsored by Coca-Cola.

Now, two final comments:

1 - None of the things described in the videos happen in Portuguese style bullfights, except the baderillas, that the horseman sticks in the bull's back.
2 - Whenever I have said that I have seen any thing related to bullfights, it means I have seen it on TV, I have never seen a bullfight "personally", if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
Even an animal gets lucky at times but if you examine the number of bullfights you will see the animals are killed on a ratio of 99.99% to 1 injury of the Matador if that.

The bull is always supposed to be killed for food after the bullfight, so the ratio is supposed to be 100% to 1.

It's a rigged match regardless of who enjoys or supports it.

It's not a match, it's a different way of killing the bull, a way in which it has more chances than the ones sent directly to the slaughterhouse.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
So they torture the bull and prolong it's death and keep it scared and terrified .

Not really, I am still waiting for the source of the "The bull was put down after hours of fighting" part, as far as I could see that was not part of the original article and its not true, they do not even kill the bulls in that event.

Really? So what do they do with the bleeding bulls after? Send them to a good home where they can live their lives like kings until they have to put on another good show?

Originally posted by blackrain17
Really? So what do they do with the bleeding bulls after? Send them to a good home where they can live their lives like kings until they have to put on another good show?

I don't think they send them to "a good home", but I see two possibilities: they are sent to a slaughterhouse (that way they can say that no bulls are killed on the event, in the same way no bulls are killed on Portuguese style bullfights) or they are sent back to the country.

Bulls are not that much affected by banderillas, they can survive them with no problem. Some years ago, in some poorer places in Portugal (getting a real bull in a bullfight is very expensive), they used the bulls on the same event from the previous year, but that is forbidden, and one of the reasons is that they learn how to react to people, so if a bull is returned some time after to bullfight it will not fall for the torero's tricks and their chances are much higher.

reply to post by blackrain17


From what I've heard, in the Potuguese system the bull is retired to a farm after one running. I'm not sure if that's true though. ArMap might be able to confirm or negate this.

Can/are the bulls used for breeding afterwards?

I couldn't watch the video.
Bull fighting needs to go the way of dog fighting and cock fighting.

It's heinous, unnecessary, cruel, and inhumane. It is a form of torture and no living creature deserves to be subjected to this.

EDIT to Add: I have no remorse or sympathy for some fool that gets injured/killed when it was their own free will that put them in the path of a frightened, raging bull. Sometimes, people do get what they ask for.

Originally posted by NocturnalPhantom
From what I've heard, in the Potuguese system the bull is retired to a farm after one running.

No, they are sent to a slaughterhouse and their meat is sold like any other meat, although identified as being from a bullfight bull or at least with its origin, according to the law.

In Spain, when the spectators think the bull gave a very good fight they can ask for a "pardon", and the bull is sent back to the farm, but those are rare cases.

Originally posted by NocturnalPhantom
Can/are the bulls used for breeding afterwards?

Yes, they usually do that, specially because the returned bulls are the ones that were considered very good, so the breeders want to repeat the "formula".

reply to post by ArMaP

Are the bulls then bred for strength and agility alone, or are they also bred to be aggressive. If they are bred to be aggressive, I'd have thought that on a farm they'd be difficult to manage.

I've seen bullfight meat in Spain, but didn't fancy trying it. I imagine it must be rather tough and hard to chew without cooking or boiling all the flavour out if it.

Who profits most from the corridas in the end? Is it the breeders or the municipalities who stage the contests? How much would regional and national economies be affected if it were stopped tomorrow?

Originally posted by NocturnalPhantom
Are the bulls then bred for strength and agility alone, or are they also bred to be aggressive. If they are bred to be aggressive, I'd have thought that on a farm they'd be difficult to manage.

They are chosen mostly because of their aggressiveness, and although I called them farms, they are usually very large fenced areas that work also as nature sanctuaries (or whatever they call at those protected area in which the animals cannot be harmed), because they are private property and closed, and the only animals on it (put there by the owners) are the bulls, the rest of the animals are the natural inhabitants of that area.

Who profits most from the corridas in the end? Is it the breeders or the municipalities who stage the contests? How much would regional and national economies be affected if it were stopped tomorrow?

That's a good question, and from what I have seen, the biggest losers would be the municipalities, that would lose tourism (internal and external), the "ganadarias" (the bull breeders) usually have more income sources, even when they specialised on bulls for bullfighting.