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The role of Free Will

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posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by FawkseyGuy
 


Why are you so desperate to attack Christianity? Why does it threaten you so much? When we attack others who do not believe the same as us, we only show our own weakness and ignorance.

This thread has not attacked any other religions. It only states that those who are soldiers and kill cannot be true Christians and be followers of Jesus Christ.




posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Jdawg9909
reply to post by FawkseyGuy
 


Why are you so desperate to attack Christianity? Why does it threaten you so much? When we attack others who do not believe the same as us, we only show our own weakness and ignorance.

This thread has not attacked any other religions. It only states that those who are soldiers and kill cannot be true Christians and be followers of Jesus Christ.


Show me where I attacked Christianity. Show me.

I simply answered your question about God never killing anyone in wars with Biblical evidence.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Jdawg9909
reply to post by aero56
 


John 10:18

No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.


Specifically if you looks the last part, this is what my Father has commanded. This means that God has granted us free will. You can type into Google "Bible verses, free will" You will get countless verses to pop up.

We have the power to build or destroy. Let us start building again.


There is no free will, didn't you get the memo? The next item... in the scripture you quoted, it indicates that suicide is allowed and accepted under that rule, what's up with that since we are told that we can't commit suicide as it's a sin? Finally (and I am a spiritualist, not a christian), the God of the Bible killed millions according to scripture through the manipulation and direction of armies. Lucifer/Satan killed what, 8, maybe 10? Seems to me there is a bit of a problem here and the numbers don't lie plus they come from the Bible.

To blindly and without question believe in something that has just as much probability as being written by men as a propaganda tool, in my opinion is a tad gullible and naive, juvenile if you like. To each their own ;-) I have no problem with a central entity creating everything, I just have a problem with blood sucking and insane "organized" religion. Seems a lot like organized politics, organized banking and of course organized crime.

Cheers - Dave
edit on 8/11.2011 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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reply to post by LargeFries
 



and often have a lifelong affect upon a person whether or not they continue to practice that faith or those ideals.


This is very true. You never quite shake it off.

One of the reasons I would never knock anyone's faith.



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Jdawg9909
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
 

You are missing the point. If man followed Jesus' law they WOULD NOT KILL THEIR FELLOW MAN, period.

THE WARS HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY MAN AND HIS PERVERSIONS OF THE PHILOSOPHY OF JESUS. IF THEY ACCEPT JESUS THE WOULD NOT KILL.


I understand the point completely. The point is that you are speaking from ignorance on a subject that you yourself have little research on and a boat load of faith. Let me ask you a question since you seem to think that all wars are caused because people pervert "jesus's" words.......were there never any wars before 2000 years ago? Seems to me that man has existed for millenia before your "savior" popped his bearded head onto the scene,and what you fail to realize about your messiah is that he is merely a copy of previous religions, washed, rinsed and repeated with a few creative edits in between. Should you even consider that the world was peachy before "jesus" (and I seriously hope you don't for your sake), which, OH WHICH denomination out of the 2,500 plus that currently exist is the correct one? [and this is just christianity based, not counting the hundreds of other denominations like islam, judaism, buddhism, etc.] First you have to make up your mind which version of your "jesus" you would like to follow, then once you have picked a side, THEN try and explain how man is just perverting his word and everyone else on earth is wrong, from every religion that doesn't fit into yours.

Do explain....



What is so hard to accept about that? All these humanists, Gnostics and Luciferians refuse to accept their flaw and thus this is why men are lead to slaughter in war.


Actually, it is the theist that labels individuals with a "flaw",not the gnostic or humanist, and without your bigoted labels, most people would just simply get along. (Luciferians are just as silly as theists) I don't label christians with any flaws other than a lack of critical thinking skills, but I don't accuse them of killing people because they don't accept the theory of evolution or any other "insert here" scientific topic that questions your official story. War is started over a few simple things, and NONE of them have to do with your "god", or at least none but the very last one:

1. Money
2. Power
3. Land
4. Racism/Hatred/Bigotry learned from childhood by ignorant parents
5. Religious views



ANYONE WHO KILLS IN THE NAME OF COUNTRY IS NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN. GOD COMES BEFORE THIS MATERIAL WORLD. OPEN YOUR EYES.


Then I suppose that all the freedom fighters of the world that fight oppression in the name of freeing their people from tyrannical rule, and for the sake of their country are evil people as well? I guess you would condone rape, murder, genocide and a host of other atrocities that the bible advocates as well, just so you could be a true christian? Or are they supposed to live horrible, agonizing and tortured lives mentally, physically and emotionally all while your "god" turns a blind eye because no one is supposed to kill? I'm sure they are really feeling his love while they are being beaten and enslaved for the majority of their lives.


YOUR FIRST LOYALTY IS TO GOD, NO COUNTRY.


No, YOUR first loyalty is to god, not mine. This is how wars start........when you force this belief upon me without my permission.

King
edit on 11-8-2011 by Kingalbrect79 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Leahn
The Crusades have never been about religion. The Crusades were about stopping the Muslim invasion of Europe, and reconquering the lost land.


Apparently you don't have a firm grasp on history, so let me fill you in on just the most general details so that we are at an understanding.

First check here for the Crusades.

Then, let me point out the VERY FIRST sentence in the description for you:

"The Crusades were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns, called by the pope and with the main goal of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land."

So as I stated, the crusades were based on religious control, regardless of the specifics in who started it. Islam vs. Christianity in a "who's religion is better and can control you" slugfest. It's plain and simple.........You can take either side, because in the end, it is about religious control, thus, the crusades were based on religion, not just a scrap of desert.



It exists whenever your actions are irrelevant for God's purpose.


Thank you for re-inforcing my point. If "god's" purpose exists, and your actions are irrelevant, then where is your free will? You have none.


This is an incorrect premise. The Bible does not teach such.


Funny, I never claimed that it did. Nice for you to jump to conclusions though. I put as much faith in the bible being a reliable source of information as I do trusting Dr. Seuss to do open heart surgery.

King



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by FawkseyGuy

Originally posted by Jdawg9909
reply to post by FawkseyGuy
 

Why are you so desperate to attack Christianity? Why does it threaten you so much? When we attack others who do not believe the same as us, we only show our own weakness and ignorance.
This thread has not attacked any other religions. It only states that those who are soldiers and kill cannot be true Christians and be followers of Jesus Christ.

Show me where I attacked Christianity. Show me.
I simply answered your question about God never killing anyone in wars with Biblical evidence.

His version of Christianity says when Joshua went up a road one night and met a warrior angel with a drawn sword, that was actually the same person who later became Jesus.
So, saying the desolator of Joshua was Satan, you are attacking his brand of so-called Christianity.
Of course you are right.
edit on 11-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Jdawg9909
The world has accepted public persecution of Christians, for now just in entertainment, but it will follow into the real world soon enough. Life imitates and follows art.


So public persecution automatically validates Christianity? If that's the case then Islam is true since they're being persecuted for being terrorists right now.



1) More people have died in the name of God than anyone else.

I always message and correct this flawed logic.


What's so flawed about the truth? Millions have died for their God either directly or indirectly. No need to be offended by it.


God has granted us something called Free Will.

That means we can choose to do whatever action we want. Love or hate anyone we want. Build or destroy anything we want. Choose life or choose death. Choose Christ or not.



For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. -- Romans 8:29-30



God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13



Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. -- 2 Timothy 1:9


Free Will is an illusion. God chooses who he wishes to save and whom he wishes to damn. It says so in your Bible. Are all Christians this blind on the topic of free will vs predestination?




The number 6 commandment YOU SHALL NOT MURDER.


At least you got one thing right so far.



This means that any Christian who enters the military is not a true Christian. YOU SHALL NOT KILL.
You may have a religious affiliation, but you are not living the word of God. When you enter the military
and kill "for your country", you have in fact betrayed God.


No True Scotsman Fallacy. Here is a list of wars fought by God's chosen. They must not be true Christians:
LINK

* the campaigns of Joshua, Book of Joshua
* the wars described in the Book of Judges: Ehud versus the Moabite king Eglon (Judges 3:12-30); Deborah and Barak versus Jabin of Hazor and his general Sisera (Judges 4 and 5); Gideon versus the Midianites (Judges 7:1-25); Samson versus the Philistines (Judges 13:1-16:31). These were all defensive battles fought with tribal militia. The battles were more like extended skirmishes, lasting minutes to hours - short, sharp, swift.

* Saul's war with the Philistines, and David's conquests
* Israel under two great military kings, Omri and Ahab; Battle of Qarqar
* the siege of Samaria, and conquest by Sargon II of Assyria after a three-year siege. Deportation of the Jewish population (the 'lost ten tribes')
* battle against the Egyptians at Megiddo
* Judah's struggle for survival and eventual conquest by Nebuchadnezzar


You cannot have it both ways. Start living the Word. Stop killing your fellow man. If everyone did this, the word would be a lot better place.


The world would be a better place if people would stop judging them based on their beliefs, ethnicity, sex, etc. Most of the judging comes from Christians, kind of like your entire OP.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 05:46 AM
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reply to post by novastrike81
 



You wrote:

["Are all Christians this blind on the topic of free will vs predestination?"]

That appears to be the case, and it makes real communication on this central point practically impossible. Consequently the subject will quickly be presented rhetorically, with semantic acrobatics or even scholastics by elitist christians.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Jdawg9909

Which isn't true, but religion certainly has played a big role in genocides etc.


It still isn't true that it has played a big role in genocides. It is historically a very minor factor.


Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Leahn

The cathar crusades? The northern crusades?


When people talk about Crusades, they usually think about the first two. The one led by Komnenos after the Levante, and the one after the fall of Edessa. The remaining crusades had very little to do with the Church.


Originally posted by Kingalbrect79
Apparently you don't have a firm grasp on history, so let me fill you in on just the most general details so that we are at an understanding.


You go on believing that, dude, if that helps you sleep at night.


Originally posted by Kingalbrect79
"The Crusades were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns, called by the pope and with the main goal of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land."

So as I stated, the crusades were based on religious control, regardless of the specifics in who started it.


I see. Your "firm grasp of history" is based on a single sentence on a Wikipedia article that you misrepresent. No wonder you have very little idea of what you're talking about. It is interesting that you claim that the war was based on religious control regardless of who started it because you know that the war was not started by the Christians. You also know that the Muslims were not interested in exterminating Christianity in the least, they only wanted lands. And the Christians fought back to reconquer those lands, and weren't in the least insterested in exterminating Islam, as well, stopping as soon as they recovered it all. I think you missed the part talking about "restoring" Christian control of the Holy Land, although the article is misleading. It was never the main goal.

Yes, the wars were religiously sanctioned. I never said that they didn't have any religious undertones. I said that they were not for religious reasons. You might want to read the opinions of actual historians, instead of carving your own from a misrepresentation of a single sentence on Wikipedia.

en.wikipedia.org...



It exists whenever your actions are irrelevant for God's purpose.


Thank you for re-inforcing my point. If "god's" purpose exists, and your actions are irrelevant, then where is your free will? You have none.


It exists whenever your actions are irrelevant for God's purpose.



This is an incorrect premise. The Bible does not teach such.


Funny, I never claimed that it did.


I stand corrected but it is irrelevant. It is still an incorrect premise, and your whole argument rests on it, rendering it moot.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by novastrike81
What's so flawed about the truth? Millions have died for their God either directly or indirectly. No need to be offended by it.


The part that is flawed is that where it isn't truth. Despite the repeated claims of the anti-theist crowd, even if you tallied all the deaths of all wars that had the least tinge of religious undertones, you wouldn't reach a count of 'millions.' More have died in the USA-Afghanistan and USA-Iraq wars in the last decade than have died in the whole of makind's history because of God.


Originally posted by novastrike81
Free Will is an illusion. God chooses who he wishes to save and whom he wishes to damn. It says so in your Bible. Are all Christians this blind on the topic of free will vs predestination?


No, we only know what those passages actually mean.


Originally posted by novastrike81
No True Scotsman Fallacy. Here is a list of wars fought by God's chosen. They must not be true Christians:


At least you got one thing right. Given that Christianity was founded approximatedly 2 thousand years ago, and those wars were fought more like 3 to 4 thousand years ago, it is hard to call them "true Christians." I can't really see how you can argue that they were part of a religion that didn't exist, and wouldn't exist for a thousand years.


Originally posted by novastrike81
The world would be a better place if people would stop judging them based on their beliefs, ethnicity, sex, etc. Most of the judging comes from Christians, kind of like your entire OP.


And your entire reply.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Leahn
The part that is flawed is that where it isn't truth. Despite the repeated claims of the anti-theist crowd, even if you tallied all the deaths of all wars that had the least tinge of religious undertones, you wouldn't reach a count of 'millions.' More have died in the USA-Afghanistan and USA-Iraq wars in the last decade than have died in the whole of makind's history because of God.


Sources please, we can count the the number of deaths as they are in the Bible


No, we only know what those passages actually mean.


It's painfully obvious that God is in control or does predestined mean free will in Christianity?


At least you got one thing right. Given that Christianity was founded approximatedly 2 thousand years ago, and those wars were fought more like 3 to 4 thousand years ago, it is hard to call them "true Christians." I can't really see how you can argue that they were part of a religion that didn't exist, and wouldn't exist for a few thousand years


They follow the same God Christians do. You're grasping at straws now.



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by Leahn
 


You wrote:

["It still isn't true that it has played a big role in genocides. It is historically a very minor factor."]

You obviously define 'genocides' and 'very minor' different from what I do.

Quote: ["When people talk about Crusades, they usually think about the first two. The one led by Komnenos after the Levante, and the one after the fall of Edessa. The remaining crusades had very little to do with the Church."]

The cathar crusade(s) were actively supported by the church, and the northern crusade (can't remember if there were two, possibly) was for missioning reasons. I don't consider 'when people talk about' as significant in this context.

And btw, can we somehow relate this to topic?




edit on 12-8-2011 by bogomil because: addition



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by Leahn
 


Where, in scripture, isn't it God behind all the circumstances causing man to make a choice?



posted on Aug, 12 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Leahn
 


Jesus told his disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even force if you will) them to change their wills, against what they previously stated. Was there a reason that God caused the disciples to will loyalty to Jesus, and then nearly the same night, to will to deny Jesus? God doesn't do anything without a reason. God totally humiliated them by proving to them that their own will was not free to do what they wanted but "it is God, (not man) which works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure to bring about His intentions. Phil 2:13.(L Smith)

So, in the course of just one night, God jacked the presumed free will of the disciples.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by novastrike81
Sources please, we can count the the number of deaths as they are in the Bible


Then go ahead and do it. Tally them up. I want to see the "millions" killed. Let us see if it really adds up to millions like you claim. It is about time some atheist owned up to the burden of proof for their claims.


Originally posted by novastrike81
It's painfully obvious that God is in control or does predestined mean free will in Christianity?


It is painfully obvious that you have a strong desire to quote the Bible out of context and making a poor case for predestination, even when a cursory understanding of the Bible would tell you otherwise.


Originally posted by novastrike81
They follow the same God Christians do.


So? Christianity is defined as the religion that follows the teachings and example of Christ. Do they follow the teachings and example of Christ? No? Then they are not True Christians. I am not the one grasping at straws here. You're the one making the claim that ancient israelites that lives 2 millenia before Christ came to Earth must be accepted as "True Christians" under some criteria that you concoted yourself.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by bogomil
["It still isn't true that it has played a big role in genocides. It is historically a very minor factor."]

You obviously define 'genocides' and 'very minor' different from what I do.


Which doesn't change the fact that I am correct. There hasn't been many genocides because of religion, and there have been many more genocides for a multitude of other reasons. Historically, it is a minor factor in causing genocides.


Originally posted by bogomil
I don't consider 'when people talk about' as significant in this context.


Then you should refrain from asking it. When people talk about Crusades, they do not usually mean either the Cathar Crusades or the Northern Crusades. They mean the First and the Second Crusades, which are the most famous ones.


Originally posted by bogomil
And btw, can we somehow relate this to topic?


I'd love to, but it is hard to keep yourself on-topic when anti-theists only have a handful of arguments that they make sure to hijack with any topic even slightly related to religion. I will gladly drop the subject and return to the topic of free will, if you agree.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by aero56
So, in the course of just one night, God jacked the presumed free will of the disciples.


Exceptions do not disprove a rule. If I state that "white swans exist" and you show me a black swan, it does not mean that white swans do not exist. It only means that not all swans are white. Your argument fails logic. It is a fallacy of Proof by Example. No theology that relies on free will to explain things make the claim that free will is completely irrevocable. Everyone understand that prophecy causes free will to be breached.



posted on Aug, 16 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Leahn
 


It either all stands, or it all falls, and in the scriptures, God made it very clear that our wills are not free. The instant God created a "free will" His plan of supremacy was doomed. The idea that God would allow man a "free will" that could or would advert God's plan or purpose, is absurd. If a carnal minded person cannot love God and cannot be subject to God's law, how in the world is he going to choose to love and obey God? God's word says that isn't possible. If God's word says it, not one person is "free" to contradict His Word.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by Leahn
 

It either all stands, or it all falls,


Why? I'd address this as false dichotomy, as it is, but I'd like to hear your reasons first.


Originally posted by aero56
and in the scriptures, God made it very clear that our wills are not free. The instant God created a "free will" His plan of supremacy was doomed. The idea that God would allow man a "free will" that could or would advert God's plan or purpose, is absurd. If a carnal minded person cannot love God and cannot be subject to God's law, how in the world is he going to choose to love and obey God? God's word says that isn't possible. If God's word says it, not one person is "free" to contradict His Word.


What are you talking about? I mean, I really tried to understand what you're talking about, but hmm... what?




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