'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

Originally posted by xynephadyn
To understand Gods actions of the Old Testament, one must consider his origin. Who ever said that God "the father" was the first God, or the only God? How do you think he got to where he is today? One must consider God's evolution, to understand why there is such a difference between the two books. Once you consider the alternatives, it becomes a little clearer.

If God had an origin or evolved He wouldn't be God, He'd just be another creation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Not if God created all of Creation. If God existed before creation existed, and he created creation, therefore he is just as suspect to evolve as anyone of his creations evolves.

Originally posted by JonU2
His conservative estimate is that 'God' was responsible for the violent deaths of 6.5 million people in the Old Testament. These figures are completely explained, figures for his approximations are given for every city, town or village that is massacred.

First, your first problem was being raised a Catholic. Second, I suppose it is entirely lost on you people when Christians talk about judgement day? If you think 6.5 million is bad wait until then - it'll be in the billions. I find the whole disingenuous debate that of a strawman. You say God loves but then you say here I can prove where he destroyed so that proves he cannot love. Even humans can do that. God judges which you can interpret as lays down the hammer. He judged then and will judge again. No inconsistency. Catholics ran the fear racket for 1500 years telling people that they'd better be saved (or rather tither) or they'll be destroyed - I suppose your church just tried to be more 1980's PC about it.

As for whether its right or wrong its between your opinion and that of a someone that is responsible for all creation so ... just saying maybe your wrong.

There are also ideas that the eradication of many of the peoples in the OT were due to being genetically corrupted by the fallen and there is certain evidence to back that up. It certainly would explain quite a bit. That is also a mistake that everyone Christian or not makes about our religion - that there is no supernaturalism to it - they sort of ignore the majority of the Bible because it doesn't fit their present day reality.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Hmmm, wasn't Abraham the first "Hebrew"? I'm fairly certain he was a monotheist, as was Issac, and Jacob, and Jacobs 12 sons.

Pagan idolatry entered Hebrew culture during the exodus.

In the Hebrew version of the Toral, in Genesis 12, Abraham is said to worship "El Shaddai", one of the names for Canaanite God, El Elyon. In Genesis 28 Jacob climbs the ladder to talk to El Elyon. Later Jacob makes El Elyon his "Elohim", the Canaanite tradition of elevating one God amongst the others to be their "primary" god. These are Pagan polyetheistc gods. And these guys were Canaanites and whether Canaanites were Hebrews is the subject of much debate. But they certainly were NOT monotheistic.

The Bible - truth stranger than fiction.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JonU2

 

I have recently read a book entitled 'Mousetrails' by an elderly man named Keith Stephens, who, like me, was raised as a Christian and could never understand why people didn't talk about the actual contents of the Old Testament.

What verses? Where a holy and righteous God passes judgment on wicked and rebellious people?

*gasp* What horror!!!!

What is so holy and righteous about forcing your "special" to kill everyone.

A holy and righteous God would do the dirty work himself.

Do not kill means DO NOT KILL.

So god coulda wiped em off the face of the earth but made his loyal followers murder and dirty their own souls, yeah very holy and righteous.

Originally posted by GisfridMaillor
What is so holy and righteous about forcing your "special" to kill everyone.

A holy and righteous God would do the dirty work himself.

Do not kill means DO NOT KILL.

So god coulda wiped em off the face of the earth but made his loyal followers murder and dirty their own souls, yeah very holy and righteous.

You are simply pigeon holing God in to a version of something you can argue against. The 10 Commandments which you are referencing were given to the people of Israel as a set of laws. It makes sense and has for 1000's of years - do not kill other people - its not good for the collective.

As he was giving it to them he passed judgement on a group of people that had erected a false idol and worshiped it. Your version of God is simply a Walt Disney approved version and its baseless. It might be hard to accept for some that there is an entity - lets call him God - out there playing God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by xynephadyn
To understand Gods actions of the Old Testament, one must consider his origin. Who ever said that God "the father" was the first God, or the only God? How do you think he got to where he is today? One must consider God's evolution, to understand why there is such a difference between the two books. Once you consider the alternatives, it becomes a little clearer.

If God had an origin or evolved He wouldn't be God, He'd just be another creation.

Your God has evolved, as I've explained. El Elyon fades from the Hebrew Bible in Exodus and is replaced by Yahweh, the God Of War.

Exodus 15:11 - "Who is like you among Gods, Yahweh?"
Exodus 18:11 - "Now I know Yahweh is greater than all Gods!"

Exodus 15:3 states Yahweh is a "Great Warrior" that delivered them from Egypt. And later is "Yahweh Sabioth" which translates to "Yahweh, God Of The Armies".

Once the Israelites arrived in the Promised Land they no longer needed a War God and started to once again revere the Canaanite fertility gods Baal and Asherah (Judges 3:7).

There is also firm archaelogical evidence of the Israelite polytheistic belief dating back to 1000 BCE (Cult Stand of Tanach).

El Elyon > Yahweh > God

reply to post by Logman

Your God has evolved, as I've explained. El Elyon fades from the Hebrew Bible in Exodus and is replaced by Yahweh, the God Of War.

Lol, you're ignorant of Hebrew. "El Elyon" is a title, not a proper name. It means "God most High" or "Most High God". YHWH is a proper name.

That would be like saying "The president's name was "Commander in Chief" yesterday and today a new president comes along and they are calling this dude Barack Obama!!!"

Christians have definitely not been silent on this issue. The accusation of a dichotomy between the "evil" Old Testament God and the "loving" New Testament God is an old snare that continues to trap those all too willing to find an excuse for their unbelief.

The explanation is straightforward, there's no mystery to it especially if you understand two basic Christian principles:

1. Christians do not worship the Bible.

2. God does not change His mind.

The Bible did not float down to us from Heaven. It is not God's word-for-word dictation to human kind, if it were we would worship it as divine. Thankfully, it is not. This frees us from literalism which can lead us into all sorts of errors. Take the OP for example...if Christians were slaves to the ink on the pages of the Bible we'd have no choice but to accept the monstrous duality of God. Luckily we are not bound to ink. This is especially important to note when reading the Old Testament when it says God "hates" this or that, is "jealous" or otherwise acting like a human.

The Old Testament is better read for what it says about us rather than God. It does it's part in showing the progression of our understanding of God and Heavenly things, how our forefathers perceived it anyway. And we read of terrible acts of brutality, of God commanding others to kill, but in truth none of this was from God:

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Are you forgetting the great errors of these early men? How quick they were to turn away from God and devolve into barbarism? If all this bloodshed was ordered by God, why didn't it please Him? Why the terrible judgements in the wilderness? Why the need for a second covenant? Jesus preaches of peace and love but the Old Testament says that God ordered genocides, rapes and murders? Did God change his mind about the sanctity of human life? No.

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins... In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

But much of the Old Testament concerns these Laws of burnt offerings and sacrifices...did God institute these traditions only to turn around and disavow them? Of course not!

The truth is God did not order his people to rape and murder. God did not create the deadening and convoluted system of burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin. These we can all attribute to the obtuse and carnal way the early Isrealites understood God. Our evolved understanding of God as Love must prevail over the vulgar perceptions of the Old Testament because they are shadowy and dark. Since then we've had God's own Son set us free from such bondage.

reply to post by GisfridMaillor

What is so holy and righteous about forcing your "special" to kill everyone.

My "special" what?

A holy and righteous God would do the dirty work himself.

Because you say so?

Do not kill means DO NOT KILL.

The Hebrew word is "murder". Thou shalt not murder is more accurate. Murder means taking innocent life.

Just let the hate out man, it's healthy.

I'll try and put it to you gently. Everybody dies. Not just people in wars and floods etc. Even the rich. I suppose you think that some-how he might forget about you, especially if you refuse to believe in him. But you and I are probably not that lucky.

Wheather or not it is a sword or bullet or a car crash or cancer it just doesn't matter to the person who is dead. They are just as dead.

So I guess that your premiss is a whole lot worse than you thought. News flash GOD KILLS EVERYONE. Always has and always will.

The question is why do you think He set it up that way???????????

Or is mankind just naturally evil and they want to blame it on someone or something else.

So Christianity had their crusades and Muslums have terrorests, all with the greatest intentions. Would you care to go into how many people liberals have killed all with the geratest of intentions.

Like when DDT was banned 40 years ago when Malaria was under control, world wide and then suddenly the mosquito returned with a vengance and now more than a million people a year have died ( Look up the stats for yourself, you wouldn't believe me anyway). Thats 40million people, all with the greatest intentions.

The question I have is, Why will you not fight to bring back DDT???? You could save 40 million people over the next 40 Years. Or does you liberal religion forbid it. ( This all happened in your old testiment before you were born).

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman

 

Your God has evolved, as I've explained. El Elyon fades from the Hebrew Bible in Exodus and is replaced by Yahweh, the God Of War.

Lol, you're ignorant of Hebrew. "El Elyon" is a title, not a proper name. It means "God most High" or "Most High God". YHWH is a proper name.

That would be like saying "The president was called "Commander in Chief" yesterday and today a new president comes along and they are calling this dude Barack Obama!!!"

No, I'm not ignorant of Hebrew. I know full well that El Elyon means God Most High. However, El Elyon is still one of many pagan Gods worshipped by the Canaanites. Whether a title or not, El Elyon refers to one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon.

reply to post by Logman

No, I'm not ignorant of Hebrew. I know full well that El Elyon means God Most High. However, El Elyon is still one of many pagan Gods worshipped by the Canaanites. Whether a title or not, El Elyon refers to one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon.

If you're not ignorant to Hebrew why do you keep presenting titles God uses and treating them as proper names for different gods?

Originally posted by monkcaw
The truth is God did not order his people to rape and murder. God did not create the deadening and convoluted system of burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin. These we can all attribute to the obtuse and carnal way the early Isrealites understood God. Our evolved understanding of God as Love must prevail over the vulgar perceptions of the Old Testament because they are shadowy and dark. Since then we've had God's own Son set us free from such bondage.

Christians believe the Bible is the Word Of God. God is always commanding people to kill.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' (ESV)

Deuteronomy 17:12
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (NLT)

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (NAB)

Plus about 10-15 others that I could write up.

This is Jesus's father, Jesus was His son, and that was God's message. But I guess he changed his mind.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman

 

No, I'm not ignorant of Hebrew. I know full well that El Elyon means God Most High. However, El Elyon is still one of many pagan Gods worshipped by the Canaanites. Whether a title or not, El Elyon refers to one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon.

If you're not ignorant to Hebrew why do you keep presenting titles God uses and treating them as proper names for different gods?

Because El Elyon is one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon. The Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who you incorrectly stated were monotheistic, were Canaanites. El Elyon is not the Christian monotheistic God. Please read more books other than the bible.

I have not read through all the replies. I am no longer a christian. Have not been for many, many years now. I was raised in 'the church' be it, baptist, protestant, evangelical, etc. When I turned 18, I walked away from the church once I moved out of my parents home. Eventually, in my mid 20's, I returned to church. I went 2x a week, every Sunday and Wednesday. And every so often I went to any special speaker service they had as well. Do to a situation, that I wont get into here, I was shunned by not only the members of the church but the pastor as well. I wanted to walk in with a handful of rocks and hand them out.

Any-who...while I was in the church, any church, I always had a problem with the disregarding of the OT for the NT. That just felt wrong. How can you read the middle to the end of a book and think that's all there is to it? Just didn't seem right to me.

So I learned Hebrew, studied the Torah, and found that the NT is so full of holes, I walked away. Since that time, I have done away with holidays, I don't participate in any of them any longer.

I am not sure what I believe to be truthful. The OT is such a contradiction. The loving god, the murdering god, if he is all loving, as a "father", I don't know of any fathers who would allow their "child" to be killed no matter how much wrong they did. As a parent, I just can't comprehend, an all knowing, all loving god, to allow harm, death, unjustice, who is supposedly in control-at all times, to allow harm to come to his own. So as much as I want to believe in a creator, a loving spiritual guide (god), I don't see it.

The bible claimed that if you had the faith of a mustard seed, and asked and believed, it would be yours. Well, I did, and it never happened. Being a single mom, I gave money to some ministries (tithed) and was basically robbed. I believed if I helped others, I would be helped. I was lied to. I was believing, and faithful...to man! I threw my money away, which killed my faith in any kind of loving god. '

I now believe in Karma. What goes around, comes around. If you help those in need, be it big or small, it will come back to you. I don't need some organized religion telling me that i need to tithe X amount to be in good standing. I don't have much, but if I see another in need I will help them. If I get the urge to give a few bucks to someone in a store, that's my good dead. I don't need some organization telling me how to, or when to do it. I do it when I feel I want to or should. AND that is good enough for me.

reply to post by Logman

Because El Elyon is one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon. The Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who you incorrectly stated were monotheistic, were Canaanites.

They were Hebrews, Abraham was the first "Hebrew" when he circumcised himself and all those in his camp. His son and grandson, and great grandson's were all monotheists. Idolatry and Paganism was a problem when the Jews were captive in Egypt.

El Elyon is not the Christian monotheistic God.

Yeah, Jesus is not only the Most High God, He's the only true and living God.

Please read more books other than the bible.

No thanks, I can find more creative and less time consuming ways to become ill-informed.

No chance the OT was created by men seeking to control a populace through war, fear and mysticism is there? I'm a "confirmed" Catholic, not strictly raised in a Catholic sense, but confirmed all the same. I don't mock religion. I do find it funny that since the advent of modern knowledge new religions don't have the same effect.

If only the phrase "pictures or it didn't happen" existed 2000+ years ago. I'm one of those stubborn believers in a higher power, not necessarily a being, but something greater that NO ONE can comprehend, at least not consciously.

reply to post by summer5

The bible claimed that if you had the faith of a mustard seed, and asked and believed, it would be yours. Well, I did, and it never happened.

God is not a genie in a bottle, Christ said if one had the faith of a mustard seed they could move/sway a mountain.

Your fail was in not realizing "mountain" is a Hebraism for "nation". You didn't learn Hebraisms and figurative literary devices when you studied Hebrew?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman

 

Because El Elyon is one God of many in the Canaanite pantheon. The Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who you incorrectly stated were monotheistic, were Canaanites.

They were Hebrews, Abraham was the first "Hebrew" when he circumcised himself and all those in his camp. His son and grandson, and great grandson's were all monotheists. Idolatry and Paganism was a problem when the Jews were captive in Egypt.

El Elyon is not the Christian monotheistic God.

Yeah, Jesus is not only the Most High God, He's the only true and living God.

Please read more books other than the bible.

No thanks, I can find more creative and less time consuming ways to become ill-informed.

edit on 16-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

So- Just to clarify...reading other sources than the Bible will make you ill-informed? In fact, restricting your reading selection to one source inhibits your ability to make an unbiased and thoughful decision.....