'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

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posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by akushla99
Talk...


... been trying

You're either a hoax, inebriated, or mentally impaired.
You have yourself a great evening!


Despite the veiled insults, my friend...you have yourself a good life.
Akushla




posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


From all of the posts you have written I have picked up a very superior and disdainful attitude. You talk down to people as if they have no right to question any action of this so-called 'God' and label people as children for daring to do just that.

It seems that being on ATS, in a discussion forum, is not exactly an ideal situation for your mindset.

This 'God' of yours was not merely protecting his beloved people and smiting those who did not follow him - he was demanding millions in tithes from them including, and I quote, 'The gold that they gave as a contribution to the Lord amounted in all to sixteen thousand seven hundred fifty shekels. (Numbers 31:52) which was just from the massacre of the Madianites and would be worth approximately 3 million US dollars in todays money.

This is just one example amongst numerous for gold and treasure as well as other specific demands such as: “You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the firstborn of your sons. You must do the same with your oxen and your sheep;” (Exodus 22:28) and he made sure that his followers were aware that he must be paid constantly: “No one shall appear before me empty handed.” (Exodus 23:15)

Reading through the many passages where 'his beloved people' had to give their tithes to 'God' you see an amazing amount of money and gold being given to him. In the following passage think of how much this is: 'One beca apiece, that is, a half shekel apiece, was received from every man twenty years or more who entered the registered group; the number of these was six hundred and three thousand five hundred fifty men.' (Exodus 38:26)

So, this all-powerful, omnipresent 'God of love' throughout the whole of the OT was demanding gold, silver, money, food, animals and even blood sacrifice from his followers for his protection, whilst ordering them to continue to massacre settlement after settlement to obtain more and more gold, silver, money, food, animals!!!!

This doesn't sound like a God that is merely punishing people for not following him!!!

Why does this God need all these riches? Sounds like a modern-day tyrant to me - maybe he wasn't actually a God after all?



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Firstly, Keith Stephens is not my friend. I have never met the man but was impressed with the scholarly way in which he set about to merely show exactly what was contained in the Old Testament.

Regardless of any mistranslations, this is what the Old Testament says and that cannot be denied.

If someone says that the OT is all true then they must stand by ALL of it and accept that ALL of it is true.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by JonU2
. . .
This is just one example amongst numerous for gold and treasure as well as other specific demands such as: “You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the firstborn of your sons. You must do the same with your oxen and your sheep;” (Exodus 22:28) and he made sure that his followers were aware that he must be paid constantly: “No one shall appear before me empty handed.” (Exodus 23:15)

Reading through the many passages where 'his beloved people' had to give their tithes to 'God' you see an amazing amount of money and gold being given to him. In the following passage think of how much this is: 'One beca apiece, that is, a half shekel apiece, was received from every man twenty years or more who entered the registered group; the number of these was six hundred and three thousand five hundred fifty men.' (Exodus 38:26)


Perhaps you should read up on why tithes were important.

I will give you a small hint. Tribe of Levi.


So, this all-powerful, omnipresent 'God of love' throughout the whole of the OT was demanding gold, silver, money, food, animals and even blood sacrifice


Material items were set apart.


from his followers for his protection,


The blood was not for protection. It was to cover the breakings of the law. The blood sacrifice was symbolism.


whilst ordering them to continue to massacre settlement after settlement to obtain more and more gold, silver, money, food, animals!!!!


The point of the massacres was not to amass wealth. You really do fail at understanding the Torah.


This doesn't sound like a God that is merely punishing people for not following him!!!


It doesn't sound like it, because you are being ignorant.


Why does this God need all these riches? Sounds like a modern-day tyrant to me - maybe he wasn't actually a God after all?


He doesn't need it. Perhaps instead of picking and choosing certain passages to suit your agenda, you should actually study the writings to get the whole story.

It is akin to taking the following excerpt from a book:

--"denoted the fond, throbbing trust, the loving alarms, with which the poor bride gave her bosom away."--

And saying that the book is obviously a Harlequin romance novel, and the author was a lustful sex maniac.

Well, damn. That excerpt is from Moby Dick.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman
I don't really see where the problem is here.... YHWH is a vengeful God... He helps those who believe in him and destroys those who don't... Plain and simple...

If one were a Christian I don't see why this would change with their God... He is peaceful, forgiving and loving beyond all understanding to those who try to follow him, but will destroy all who stand against he and his people...Christ was pretty clear about what would happen in the last days... I would say a lot more than 6.5 million would die in this scenario...

According to scripture God's Love is more powerful than all, and his wrath is the same... He is all powerful in all ways...

The ultimate goal is this; Daniel 2:44 "During the reigns of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed or conquered. It will crush all these kingdoms into nothingness, and it will stand forever."

We as humans who are suppost to be peaceful unless of course, as you point out happened in the OT, God wills differently....I don't understand why people have to complicate this so much... Either you believe in what is written in the Bible or you don't... The Most High is pretty consistent throughout... No matter where you decide your particuliar Holy Book ends...

Stand with Him and be rewarded... Stand against Him and be destroyed... This needs no justification by anyone...The End...


edit on 15-7-2011 by wearewatchingyouman because: clarity


Hitler tried to destroy all those that stood against him as well, and rewarded those that followed him. What makes him so different from your God? Was America wrong for standing against him? Should we have been punished?

Why is it ok for God to destroy those that oppose him? Would you consider it moral and loving and understanding if everyone tried to kill anyone that didn't follow in their said beliefs?

Why should I be destroyed because I choose not to follow Christ? I'm not an evil person, God just makes no logical sense to me. It's not my "choice" just the way it is. I don't "choose" to not believe, I just don't. Do you choose not to believe in the tooth fairy? Or do you just not believe because in your logical, adult mind it's illogical?

If God 'chose' to give me this brain, why should I be destroyed because I don't believe, and because I choose not to "try" and follow him. That sounds pretty harsh...that means he put me here to be doomed from birth, knowing my belief is him isn't my choice. Sounds like a pretty mean thing to do, regardless of OT or NT.

I just don't understand how people can love and so whole heartedly follow someone or something that has an all powerful wrath of vengence. It's like a dog fighting pit bull loving his master, even though his master may lash out in vengence at any moment.

By the way I'm not trying to bash you, or anyone that believes. Good for you. Religion has its benefits, along with its wackos, but that goes for any organization. Ill stick with my beliefs because thats who I am. If God wants to destroy me because of them, well at least I stuck to my values, and didn't succumb out of fear for what might happen if I didn't. AN ALL LOVING GOD SHOULDN"T HAVE TO BE FEARED!



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 10:09 PM
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Not going to read teh thread as I don't get into debates with Christians. But I do know a lot more about their God than 99.9% of Christians.

The old God of the Hebrews was YHWH (Yahweh) and this was the Hebrew God Of War and was one of three main deities the polytheistic Hebrews worshipped (the others being Baal and Asherah). This is why the Old Testament is full of the wrath of GOD. Amongst the Hebrews their were Yahweh cults, Baalist cults and Asherist cults and at different times in their history some cults weremore popular than others. During times of great strife YHWH was worshipped heavily (like during Exodus and the Babylonian Exile).

Around 600 BCE the Hebrew King Josiah came to power. He was a strict Yahwist and decided that all Jews would worship Yahweh. He enforced the worship and banned the other gods. This was the birth of Monotheism in the world - it didn't exist before then. Yahweh became GOD of all Jewish sects, including a new sect called Christianity 600 years later.

And thus the God of War held dominion over all mankind.

Incredible stuff. I urge all to study the historicity of both books of the Bible. "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong will open your eyes. It describes all the above and how Josiah rewrote the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) extensively including adding Deuteronomy. In fact the oldest books of the Hebrew Bible was written by 5 people at 5 different periods separated by more than 3 generations. This has allowed linguistic scholars to study the Ancient Hebrew used in all books and separate who wrote what and when. When you see it in order and see how it was edited by these 5 individuals the Bible comes alive. You can really see why God was so savage and how the Jews were Polytheists until recently.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 10:20 PM
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Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?

Because it doesn't exist.

Why does God not punish people that do evil but did so millenia ago?

Because it doesn't exist.

But Christians explain this away by seeing these people just go to Hell instead. Something they made up conveniently to explain why their God no longer punishes people.




posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 10:50 PM
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reply to post by Pseudonaut
 


Made me crawl deeper in my Anti-Idiot Mind Bunker.

I mean Shut the Front Door.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by Logman
Not going to read teh thread as I don't get into debates with Christians. But I do know a lot more about their God than 99.9% of Christians.

The old God of the Hebrews was YHWH (Yahweh) and this was the Hebrew God Of War and was one of three main deities the polytheistic Hebrews worshipped (the others being Baal and Asherah). This is why the Old Testament is full of the wrath of GOD. Amongst the Hebrews their were Yahweh cults, Baalist cults and Asherist cults and at different times in their history some cults weremore popular than others. During times of great strife YHWH was worshipped heavily (like during Exodus and the Babylonian Exile).

Around 600 BCE the Hebrew King Josiah came to power. He was a strict Yahwist and decided that all Jews would worship Yahweh. He enforced the worship and banned the other gods. This was the birth of Monotheism in the world - it didn't exist before then. Yahweh became GOD of all Jewish sects, including a new sect called Christianity 600 years later.

And thus the God of War held dominion over all mankind.

Incredible stuff. I urge all to study the historicity of both books of the Bible. "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong will open your eyes. It describes all the above and how Josiah rewrote the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) extensively including adding Deuteronomy. In fact the oldest books of the Hebrew Bible was written by 5 people at 5 different periods separated by more than 3 generations. This has allowed linguistic scholars to study the Ancient Hebrew used in all books and separate who wrote what and when. When you see it in order and see how it was edited by these 5 individuals the Bible comes alive. You can really see why God was so savage and how the Jews were Polytheists until recently.



I absolutely agree with you! I prefer not to get involved in personal belief debates, because frankly life is all about perception, and we all have a right to our own belief.

HOWEVER, I do think that many religious people do not take the time (as you have) to research the cultures and religious practices of the ancient Mediterraean. If they had, they would notice that the world was much more complex then is generally assumed. People were not insulated by country borders as we know them today, but moved more freely between territories for trade. With trade came interdependance and the transfer of ideas. You are very right Logman to argue the polytheistic nature of the Hebrews during the Archaic period. I also recommend the book, God Against the Gods, by Johnathan Kirsch for a discussion of how monotheism eventually truimphed as the popular viewpoint in the late Hellenistic period, and how polytheists were persecuted for their beliefs by Christians.

I only hope to edit one bit of detail in your discussion. It has to do with the idea that around 600BC King Josiah instituted a monotheistic standard and that "This was the birth of Monotheism in the world - it didn't exist before then." While the monotheistic intitution at that time is likely true, please consider the earlier monotheistic efforts of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), Pharoah of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, who took extreme reforms to rid his dominion of all other gods but Aten. His reforms were not well received by the Egyptian people, and after his death, his name was removed from almost all heiroglyphic inscriptions and many of his architectural achivements were destroyed by the people.

I also feel that if there is an almighty "God" out there that he does not judge individuals so harshly. We ALL grow up with different cultural and religious backgrounds that are nostalgic and particular to our own experience. This is the beauty of life with all its variety! I would hope that if the God of the Old Testament is an actuality in some form that his reputation for boodthirst was overexaggerated in the Bible.
edit on 15-7-2011 by TheAncientsKnew because: added detail



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by Logman
 



Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?


Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by JonU2
 



Why does this God need all these riches? Sounds like a modern-day tyrant to me - maybe he wasn't actually a God after all?


Maybe He was trying to break the spirit of greed in His children? God doesn't need anything, He could create planets of solid gold if He wanted to. His ways are to teach men, like any father does with their children. Most of the time when kids are young they can't fathom why mom and pops are making the rules and decisions they do.

No different here.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Logman
Not going to read teh thread as I don't get into debates with Christians. But I do know a lot more about their God than 99.9% of Christians.

The old God of the Hebrews was YHWH (Yahweh) and this was the Hebrew God Of War and was one of three main deities the polytheistic Hebrews worshipped (the others being Baal and Asherah). This is why the Old Testament is full of the wrath of GOD. Amongst the Hebrews their were Yahweh cults, Baalist cults and Asherist cults and at different times in their history some cults weremore popular than others. During times of great strife YHWH was worshipped heavily (like during Exodus and the Babylonian Exile).

Around 600 BCE the Hebrew King Josiah came to power. He was a strict Yahwist and decided that all Jews would worship Yahweh. He enforced the worship and banned the other gods. This was the birth of Monotheism in the world - it didn't exist before then. Yahweh became GOD of all Jewish sects, including a new sect called Christianity 600 years later.

And thus the God of War held dominion over all mankind.

Incredible stuff. I urge all to study the historicity of both books of the Bible. "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong will open your eyes. It describes all the above and how Josiah rewrote the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) extensively including adding Deuteronomy. In fact the oldest books of the Hebrew Bible was written by 5 people at 5 different periods separated by more than 3 generations. This has allowed linguistic scholars to study the Ancient Hebrew used in all books and separate who wrote what and when. When you see it in order and see how it was edited by these 5 individuals the Bible comes alive. You can really see why God was so savage and how the Jews were Polytheists until recently.


Hmmm, wasn't Abraham the first "Hebrew"? I'm fairly certain he was a monotheist, as was Issac, and Jacob, and Jacobs 12 sons.

Pagan idolatry entered Hebrew culture during the exodus.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman
 



Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?


Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.


Now that is Settled,,, Move along everyone,,, nothing more to Think about,,,,,,
Celebratory Fireworks Begin at Armegeddon,,,
Sin was Judged,,,,
Even American Idol won't let him on their Show now......
Move along. Nothing to Think about here.
More Dueling Deities after the Good News at 11:00.

Move along.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 



The point of the massacres was not to amass wealth. You really do fail at understanding the Torah.


People who fail at understanding why God commanded the "massacres" also fail at understanding Genesis 6 and why the flood was necessary and how that chapter affects most of the OT.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by TheAncientsKnew
I absolutely agree with you! I prefer not to get involved in personal belief debates, because frankly life is all about perception, and we all have a right to our own belief.

HOWEVER, I do think that many religious people do not take the time (as you have) to research the cultures and religious practices of the ancient Mediterraean. If they had, they would notice that the world was much more complex then is generally assumed. People were not insulated by country borders as we know them today, but moved more freely between territories for trade. With trade came interdependance and the transfer of ideas. You are very right Logman to argue the polytheistic nature of the Hebrews during the Archaic period. I also recommend the book, God Against the Gods, by Johnathan Kirsch for a discussion of how monotheism eventually truimphed as the popular viewpoint in the late Hellenistic period, and how polytheists were persecuted for their beliefs by Christians.

I only hope to edit one bit of detail in your discussion. It has to do with the idea that around 600BC King Josiah instituted a monotheistic standard and that "This was the birth of Monotheism in the world - it didn't exist before then." While the monotheistic intitution at that time is likely true, please consider the earlier monotheistic efforts of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), Pharoah of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, who took extreme reforms to rid his dominion of all other gods but Aten. His reforms were not well received by the Egyptian people, and after his death, his name was removed from almost all heiroglyphic inscriptions and many of his architectural achivements were destroyed by the people.

I also feel that if there is an almighty "God" out there that he does not judge individuals so harshly. We ALL grow up with different cultural and religious backgrounds that are nostalgic and particular to our own experience. This is the beauty of life with all its variety! I would hope that if the God of the Old Testament is an actuality in some form that his reputation for boodthirst was overexaggerated in the Bible.


Thanks for the book recommendation, I will add it to my list of books to read. I've been meaning to study material on Akhenaton but haven't got around to it. I am vaguely familiar about his monotheistic views and efforts in that regard. Look forward to reading the book.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Really, Socrates grasped the seemingly impossible dilemma. Just forgiving without penalty would compromise God's righteousness.


Actually it would help prove it. Especially if the usual fare is to dole out infinite punishment for finite crimes - something wholly unjust, merciless and unrighteous.


God already offered mercy and justice at the cross.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman
 



Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?


Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.

Kind of like how Jesus says the only route to the Father is through him. A point I bring up with Christians if motivated enough to bother is that is it then true that in the millennia before Jesus not one soul found God (if one does exist)? In all the thousands of years of civilisation, millions of loving and caring individuals never found God and yet a mere man appears and suddenly there's a path? It makes no sense.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen23

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman
 



Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?


Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.


Now that is Settled,,, Move along everyone,,, nothing more to Think about,,,,,,
Celebratory Fireworks Begin at Armegeddon,,,
Sin was Judged,,,,
Even American Idol won't let him on their Show now......
Move along. Nothing to Think about here.
More Dueling Deities after the Good News at 11:00.

Move along.


Whoa.. Not so fast, that only applies to those who accept it. Don't head for the isles yet, there's quite a bit of fireworks left in this drama.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:35 PM
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To understand Gods actions of the Old Testament, one must consider his origin. Who ever said that God "the father" was the first God, or the only God? How do you think he got to where he is today? One must consider God's evolution, to understand why there is such a difference between the two books. Once you consider the alternatives, it becomes a little clearer.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by Logman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Logman
 



Also, many have stood against the ridiculous Christian God and have not received any wrath. Why did God punish people thousands of years ago for standing against him when he does nothing now?


Because sin was judged at Calvary 2,000 years ago.

Kind of like how Jesus says the only route to the Father is through him. A point I bring up with Christians if motivated enough to bother is that is it then true that in the millennia before Jesus not one soul found God (if one does exist)? In all the thousands of years of civilisation, millions of loving and caring individuals never found God and yet a mere man appears and suddenly there's a path? It makes no sense.


It makes no sense because you've gotten your Theology from hostile sources who cherry-pick the details. Kinda like searching for information on how to field dress a buck on PETA's webpages.

Before Christ they had sacrifices which "covered" their sins. Christ's death "atoned" for their sins. Apples to oranges difference. Before Christ's atonement for sin, departed souls didn't go to heaven, they went to "Abraham's Bosom". Once atonement was made, Christ led "the captives" to heaven when He ascended.





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