'Mousetrails' and the dark side of the Old Testament

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posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by JonU2
 


I totally agree, but then when it comes to the bigger picture, who can say for certainty whether there really is or isn't a benevolent God. Nothing wrong with keeping an open mind.




posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 06:14 AM
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I would just like to add, that in the bible,

God killed 3,291,421 people
Devil killed 10 people



Just a little fun fact to throw into the debate.

Source: The Bible.
edit on 10/12/10 by anicetus because: Proper comma (,)



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 06:20 AM
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reply to post by kindred
 


Yes, keep an open mind but don't spend your life in devotion to something that in all probability doesn't exist. I've always felt that this 'blind faith' thing is the biggest con-man trick of all time...............



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by anicetus
 


Thanks but I think your maths is a little wrong. I believe that it's upwards of 6.5 million deaths in the Old Testament alone that 'God' was responsible for...............



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by Logman
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Kind of like how Jesus says the only route to the Father is through him. A point I bring up with Christians if motivated enough to bother is that is it then true that in the millennia before Jesus not one soul found God (if one does exist)? In all the thousands of years of civilisation, millions of loving and caring individuals never found God and yet a mere man appears and suddenly there's a path? It makes no sense.


Agreed on all points raised in the thread so far, re the above truth, not even any of the player characters or heroes of the bible not old Abe or strong Sam or wise Sol or tenacious Dave each and every one of them cast into the pit because they didn't go the route of err Jesus, a mere accident of time or just more schizo mumbo jumbo of an old fakes so called plan and habit of moving in mysterious ways, read confused and convoluted propaganda.

I think all religions survive because of the inate human desire to please their parents mainly their dad.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by JonU2
 


You are correct about my math, but we were both wrong in our estimate.

It's still in the 2-3 million area, not counting women & children. Also, not counting the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the firstborn Egyptian children, etc...

If you add all that up, I'm guessing, from this site I'm reading... it's estimated around 24,634,205.

Source: dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...
edit on 10/12/10 by anicetus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by Logman
Originally posted by NOTurTypical

They were polytheistic Canaanites, according to the Torah, which is a book edited for a thousand years since the first book for written (which was not Genesis 1). They worshipped one of many Canaanite gods.


Yes, they were when God first spoke to Abraham. My point, was that when Abraham became the first Hebrew, he was worshiping the One True God, and had been for 18 years. He became the first Hebrew at his circumcision. So you're incorrect, the first "Hebrews" were monotheists. Idolatry and Paganism entered later, much later.


Idolatry and Paganism appeared long after the initial Exodus, even according to the Bible.


Yes, true. And God was severe in punishing His "chosen people" for said idolatry.


There is no archaelogical evidence for mass slavery in Egypy, let alone the enslavement of a whole race. Of course there was some slavery though.


Completely false. Because no one wants to talk about the evidence, doesn't mean there is no evidence.

"The Exodus Decoded" ~ James Cameron

"Mountain of Fire" ~ The Search for the Real Mt. Sinai


Jesus, if he existed was not God. He never said he was God. The Council of Nicea was convened to discuss his divinity, at which time it was decided Jesus was divine. He has also been dead for 2,000 years.


He was killed because He claimed to be God. The title "Son of Man" was taken directly from Daniel 9 where a man has the attributes of God. His title "Emmanuel" means God with us. He took His life back up again after death proving He was God. And the tomb is empty, it has been for 1,980 years. It would be kinda hard for Christianity to make it off the ground in Jerusalem 1,980 years ago if everyone could just walk outside the city walls and see the tomb with the stone still intact don't ya think?

And no, don't get your theology and church history from Dan Brown books. The Nicean council was convened to address the Aryan controversey. His divinity was already long accepted, the council didn't "make" Jesus divine, but they defined His divinity. Also the books of the Bible wasn't even a topic of discussion.

Oh yeah, and Constantine didn't have a vote.



Understood. Which is why I don't debate Christians or Politicians. Nothing I say will change anyone's mind but it can be fun debating people purely on their own beliefs and merits. Nothing I've said is untrue, it all comes from the Torah. We need look know further to discover the real Truth.


No, it's a gross misunderstanding of the Torah. You've said quite a few things untrue so far, (several in this post alone), that's why I've been setting the record straight. It's not for my health.







edit on 16-7-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by Logman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by summer5
 



The bible claimed that if you had the faith of a mustard seed, and asked and believed, it would be yours. Well, I did, and it never happened.


God is not a genie in a bottle, Christ said if one had the faith of a mustard seed they could move/sway a mountain.

Your fail was in not realizing "mountain" is a Hebraism for "nation". You didn't learn Hebraisms and figurative literary devices when you studied Hebrew?


Very good point. Just shows how easy it is, and has been, to misinterpret the Bible and Jesus's teachings. Because he taught by allegory and parable his teachings (if they are his teachings) can be subverted, miscontrued and used to serve the idealogy of certain people and periods in history.


No, Jesus taught exclusively by parables only immediately after the Jewish authorities claimed He was doing miracles not by the power of the Holy Spirit, but by "Beelzebub". He explained all his parables to the apostles, and those explanations are in the text.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by JonU2
 



I label them innocent above because I don't feel that the Old Testament actually explains any reason (is there one, really?) that they had to be all massacred.


You won't understand much of the OT if you don't understand the seed of the serpent (Rephaim/Nephillim) that entered human history during the sin of the angels in Genesis 6.

I'll point you in the direction of the rabbit trail, but you need to follow it yourself.

"Return of the Nephillim" part 1


And according to Daniel, it will happen again at the end of the current age before Christ returns.

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." ~ Daniel 2:43

"THEY shall mingle themselves with the Seed of Men"



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by anicetus
I would just like to add, that in the bible,

God killed 3,291,421 people
Devil killed 10 people



Just a little fun fact to throw into the debate.

Source: The Bible.


That total seems extremely conservative to me..

Hasn't God required the soul of every person to date that has died?



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


OK, so you know this how?

It seems to me that humans just believe other human's interpretations of ancient writings when it suits their own needs...............
edit on 16/7/11 by JonU2 because: typo



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by JonU2
 


I don't know too many (well not really ANY) believing Christians who are ignorant of the wrath of God. I'll agree people tend to focus more on the loving God of the New Testament...but that doesn't mean they forget about the OT God either.

This is another attempt to lump all Christians into one big ignorant group of sheep by pointing out something that isn't really even true.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:17 AM
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I'm going with Kindred on this one in that the Bible is too watered down at this point to be believed. Why people are still arguing the merits of the Bible as if it is "Gods word" is beyond me..

www.awitness.org...

This is just one of many examples that you can find which prove the Bible has been tampered with MANY times throughout history. The biggest one I've heard yet is that the Catholic Church does it, or did it, so it would bring more cohesiveness to the different texts so as to make each chapter segue better into the next. This supposedly was done to cut down or do away with misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Seems to me that the Catholics need to stick with what they're good at, fondling young boys, and leave the editing to the professionals because they obviously suck at it. Don't give me that bile about how God speaks through people either, and I won't tell you how MY God has told me that people are shortsighted and quick to follow.

If 90% of you don't believe that, look in the mirror for the proof.





Don't take my "young boys" reference as meaning that I am downplaying the severity of it, because I'm not. The Catholic Priests who do this, and its not all of them mind you, need to be taken out of circulation with no re-prints allowed. Burn the books in other words.
edit on 16-7-2011 by Taupin Desciple because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:23 AM
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Mercy, salvation, eternal life, peace, forgiveness, love, guidance, and protection for those who unquestioningly obey, follow the laws set forth, and believe; these seen as blessed, virtuous, and without defect.

Terrible retribution, death, vengeance, suffering, wrath, and destruction for those who disobey, violate the laws set forth, question, or inquire into/partake that which is forbidden; these seen as defective, fallen short, impure.

Both precepts used as the blueprint and the tools (over thousands of years) to ultimately create a supreme, all powerful, eternal kingdom inhabited only by the former, and enforcing the eternal subjugation and suffering of the latter on the outside.

Where have I heard/seen that vision of the future before in human history? I respect everyone's beliefs and opinions and their right to hold and espouse them. I'm just saying...

Just my two cents. Peace.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:23 AM
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I am not going to bother with reading all the replys, I am sure its all been said before.
Why waste time on the Old Testament? Revelations is about God destroying the whole Earth.
The last book of the New Testament is about God destroying everything that doesnt worship him.
The average Christian is delusional and has swallowed the lie.
If the average Christian read the book of Isiah, they would realise they are delusional.
God is Holy and Jealous and he will send those that are not his, to hell.
Repent or go to Hell.

Praise God.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:30 AM
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The first few times I read the book I had a similar reaction. "Who is this bloodthirsty pyscho?". Although I went to church most Sunday's and served as an altar boy at 14, when I went to college I fell away from my church. It wasn't till long after college that I felt an urge to read the bible.

Today, I have made sense of the brutality in the bible. In my understanding, God created human beings in order that we may truly appreciate His awesome creation. Unlike the angels who were consciously aware of His existence and immeasurable love for us, it was necessary to remove every vestige of conscious memory and toss us into a most brutal crucible where we would be exposed to the polar opposite of His love.

Furthermore we were given free will. Each one of us is being tested to the very limits of our ability to endure a very harsh reality. Think of BUDS school for navy seals.

Having been exposed to the extent of our individual and collective abilities to destroy or create, which would we choose? In the end, those of us who "pass" the test will "graduate."

I Can't read God's mind. I don't know how harsh this school had to be or how much time this age includes. Maybe it could have been longer and less harsh? Maybe there have been other ages before this?

What I know is that I am loved and I try to think how God would react in any given situation in my life. I love everybody on ATS. I am excited about the age to come. I feel we will soon face the ultimate choice and given the history of the OT, it is going to be harsh.

Whose with me?



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011
 


What "logic" is that?? The cherry-picked, hasty-generalizational straw man "logic"???

That's not logic, that's the opposite of logic.


How is reading through the whole Old Testament,and actually writing every killing God has commanded cherry picking, or hasty generalization? What YOU are saying is NOT logical, and is in fact quite opposite of logic.

The OP went through the whole book in a very logical manner.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by gabby2011

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011
 


What "logic" is that?? The cherry-picked, hasty-generalizational straw man "logic"???

That's not logic, that's the opposite of logic.


How is reading through the whole Old Testament,and actually writing every killing God has commanded cherry picking, or hasty generalization? What YOU are saying is NOT logical, and is in fact quite opposite of logic.

The OP went through the whole book in a very logical manner.


No he didn't. He cherry-picked a few random verses without any context to push an agenda.


Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias. Cherry picking may be committed unintentionally.


Cherry Picking



Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence.


Hasty Generalization


Fallacies


Christians do not deny God's wrath, skeptics deny God's mercy, grace (common and specific), forgiveness, justice, holiness, and righteousness. If people only evaluate God's wrath without taking into consideration His other attributes that's cherry picking and a hasty generalization.



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 09:11 AM
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this is such an interesting topic! i've been wrestling with all this stuff myself. anybody here read zecharia sitchin's earth chronicles? he had come to the conclusion that jehovah and yahweh were two different gods. i think he was wrong about that as yahweh is just a later spelling of jehovah. HOWEVER, i think i have discovered that jehovah was at the very least 3 different gods, and that the elohim were a whole divine council of gods. and they don't all agree on the destiny of each other's charges.

i've also found quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the word elohim had been used interchangeably for various gods, angels, dead people, etc, (in essenece spirit beings) and that the english and latin translators did not realize this.
edit on 16-7-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2011 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by undo
 



i think he was wrong about that as yahweh is just a later spelling of jehovah.


Other way around, Jehovah was a later spelling of the "YHWH" tetragrammaton of the OT.

There are no "J" letters or J phonetic sounds in Hebrew.





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