I'm thinking of becoming a Freemason.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Ummmmm clearly you did not read seeing as my member info clearly states I live in Tucson Arizona (that would be in the United States of America).

I see you running away from the argument when I point out that masons were the largest individual group among the founders.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
You must be British because only a Brit or a Canuck would reference first-past-the-post elections as an argument that Masons made up the majority of the U.S. founding fathers.

Actually, United States Presidential elections were not the same affair we have now and there were several parties competing for the Presidency. A good example would be the modern day 'Presidential Ticket' (President and Vice-President) where in the 1700's and early 1800's the Vice-Presidential position went to the next highest vote-getter and could (and occasionally did) come from a competing party.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
I see you running away from the argument when I point out that masons were the largest individual group among the founders.

The largest 'group' among the founders would have been 'males'. Followed by their ethnicity and various religions. These played just as much a part, if not more, than their fraternal affiliations.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I only offered it as evidence I have no way of going down and verifying it. So where then does the pyramid and all seeing eye of masonry come from? Hiram Abiff? Lol

Oh thanks for the smart a$$ reply on semantics. You know exactly what I was referring to. good try though.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Ummmmm clearly you did not read seeing as my member info clearly states I live in Tucson Arizona (that would be in the United States of America).

Guilty as charged. That said, your logic bears more in common with British and Canadian election logic than U.S.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
I see you running away from the argument when I point out that masons were the largest individual group among the founders.

Largest identified in this thread. Mayhap that they were businessmen? Sinister? Bald/balding? They still weren't a majority (well short of it) and you seem Hell-bent on assuming that by being Masons, they were of a hive mind on all matters. Bit of a stretch.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
You must be British because only a Brit or a Canuck would reference first-past-the-post elections as an argument that Masons made up the majority of the U.S. founding fathers.

Actually, United States Presidential elections were not the same affair we have now and there were several parties competing for the Presidency. A good example would be the modern day 'Presidential Ticket' (President and Vice-President) where in the 1700's and early 1800's the Vice-Presidential position went to the next highest vote-getter and could (and occasionally did) come from a competing party.

Fair enough but correct me if I'm wrong. It wasn't until the rise of the Anti-Masonic Party post-Morgan affair when there was actually a viable third party in your mix?

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


I am not talking about any anti-masonic political parties. I am talking about the men signing the declaration of independence. Never once mentioned elections or political parties.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
I only offered it as evidence I have no way of going down and verifying it.

Stop being dramatic. If you feel it is a viable source then you must have read something (other than the claims of the priest who found it) that convinced you. What were these circumstances?

So where then does the pyramid and all seeing eye of masonry come from? Hiram Abiff? Lol

There is no pyramid in Masonic ritual. There is a triangle with the All-Seeing Eye (or Eye of Providence) which is taken from Trinitarian Christian symbology developed in the 15th-17th Centuries. The unfinished pyramid was a creation of William Barton who was on the third committee that helped design the Great Seal of the United States. The lone Mason was Franklin who worked on the first committee. He envisioned an allegorical seen depicting Moses on the reverse.

Oh thanks for the smart a$$ reply on semantics. You know exactly what I was referring to. good try though.

There is nothing smart-assed about it. You are fixated on one aspect of their lives (Masonry) while overlooking that they had much more than that to influence their reasons for rebellion.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Fair enough but correct me if I'm wrong. It wasn't until the rise of the Anti-Masonic Party post-Morgan affair when there was actually a viable third party in your mix?

You are generally correct. The other parties were minor compared to the Federalists and Democratic-Republicans.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

I am not talking about any anti-masonic political parties. I am talking about the men signing the declaration of independence. Never once mentioned elections or political parties.

Already addressed here

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Largest identified in this thread. Mayhap that they were businessmen? Sinister? Bald/balding? They still weren't a majority (well short of it) and you seem Hell-bent on assuming that by being Masons, they were of a hive mind on all matters. Bit of a stretch.

Not being a Yank, I'd wager more of them were businessmen than Masons. Does that then by your logic mean (if true) that the U.S. revolution was a conspiracy of businessmen?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Not being a Yank, I'd wager more of them were businessmen than Masons. Does that then by your logic mean (if true) that the U.S. revolution was a conspiracy of businessmen?

You are much closer to the truth than you think.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Not being a Yank, I'd wager more of them were businessmen than Masons. Does that then by your logic mean (if true) that the U.S. revolution was a conspiracy of businessmen?

You are much closer to the truth than you think.

OK, tax-avoiders. Tomato, tomatoe. One our War of 1812 turncoats (Canadian Volunteers) was a businessman from Ancaster who was a member of Niagara Lodge (even though Barton Lodge in Stoney Creek was considerably closer). Markle was his last name if you're interested

/derail

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


The eye of providence comes from Egypt. What are you talking about developed by christian trinity? The trinity is Osiris, Isis, Horus. And by that point in history all "christian" celebrations coincided with other pagan traditions due to Constantine.

Originally posted by MasterGemini
The eye of providence comes from Egypt. What are you talking about developed by christian trinity? The trinity is Osiris, Isis, Horus. And by that point in history all "christian" celebrations coincided with other pagan traditions due to Constantine.

I am not talking of the Eye by itself but the Eye within a triangle. This is a Trinitarian Christian symbol which has its origins in Byzantine culture. It was not used until the 15-17th Centuries. There is ample evidence to support this, both written and artistically.

Originally posted by MasterGemini

What are you talking about developed by christian trinity? The trinity is Osiris, Isis, Horus. And by that point in history all "christian" celebrations coincided with other pagan traditions due to Constantine.

I disagree with you here - the trinity and its symbol is older than the Egyptians. The trinity and its symbolism symbolism has its origins in the Brahmins from the highland plateu north of the Hindu-Kush.

In ancient Brahmin texts, predating the Egyptian trinity, the trinity was denoted by a hexagram and was explained as such...

The equilateral triangle, Trikum, represents Brahma, the Triune god, with his visible attendants, Vishnu (water) and Siva (Fire). The triangle with its point turned upwards, as flames dart upwards to the sky, denote Siva, the Spirit of fire. The triangle with its point turned downwards, as rain falls to the earth, denote Vishnu, the Spirit of water.

The two triangles interlaced, called Sherkum, represent Vishnu and Siva, being the visible spirits, and therefore denoting Brahma, the Triune god.

It was afterwards adopted and modified by the Egyptians, and even later by the Christians. However, at the time that the triangle with the Eye of Providence came into use, it was based on the symbol which was then considered Christian. The same way as the cross predates Christianity, yet is considered a Christian symbol.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
reply to post by jbarr

 

I've sat in Scottish and York Rite meetings with you many times. If you can guess who I am, I'll buy you a beer.

And so the gauntlet is thrown down.

It is actually a very small group you describe, so I should be able to narrow it down fairly quickly. My first guess is a certain professor who would likely favor a good Guinness tapped at its source. However it could also be a certain brother who shares my first name. Or maybe one of higher degree who prefers performing rather than watching. Then again, I'm probably forgetting a much more obvious someone. Hmmm.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by jbarr

 

Hey jbarr. Good to see you on this site.

If this is the same jbarr that I talk to on Masonic forums.

I have posted as jbarr on several, though I recently changed my username on SS to my full name. In any case, it's great to come across familiar fellow Masons in seemingly obscure places!

reply to post by Saurus


Thank you for expanding on the concept. I am working my way back in time with these things so I appreciate the help getting that far back.

You explained what I was trying to point out much better than I could have, that the symbols were co-opted after the catholic church came around which is an entity that is immersed in pagan holidays and symbolism. Hardly any Christianity really involved in it.

FYI another Mason Dr. Conrad Murray (RIP M.J.)

Originally posted by MasterGemini
I am working my way back in time with these things so I appreciate the help getting that far back.

The best book that I have found dealing specifically with the Eye of Providence is The World's Eye by Albert M. Potts. It traces its origins back to its Eastern roots and is loaded with illustrations.