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The HOLY GRAIL and the "PURGE"

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posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I've just not really come to respect anything that conforms to sex or finds such physical pleasures as enlightening or the source of truth and knowledge (I think you know what I mean). I feel that some people can only comprehend what is physical and unable to even try to fathom what is spiritual.

Out of curiosity's sake, when is reading sex into religion the right thing in a lot of causes? I really am curious and don't mean to sound like a smart-ass. Such like an obelisk and such?




posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 05:56 PM
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Unfortunately this thread is filling up with people who believe Jesus walked the Earth 2,000 years go and somehow seem unable to realise he was a symbolic story.

I find it most sad that people could believe such things and do not realise a simple truth but however it seems the way of the world.

Also how could it be that the Gods are spirits only, when verses like these are in the bible ..

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There are unfortunately people who believe Jesus was the first and only ... of course there were many versions of this story before hand and I showed this at the beginning of the thread ... never mind like I say I find it very sad but I also wish these people would take there very tiny narrow view of religion to another thread.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by JeshurunAndronicus
 

. . .like an obelisk and such?
Like in the video, and btw I just linked to that so people could find the right channel because there are fake ones that try to imitate him.
The old calenders probably had the year starting at the spring equinox and there were traditions built around that and the euphemistic way of referring to it would be to say, fertility rites, but what it is, is sex magic.
Paul talks about "the elemental things of the Earth" and we need to keep that in mind, as being the source for things like holidays and festivals.
You have life coming into being, youthfulness and growing, then ripening and later weakening and finally death, marked out in the year cycle. What I learned from Christopher Lords (aka truthiracy) is that the same concept applies to the weekly cycle with Saturn being the death, or Hell planet, at the end of the week.
Seeing how the ancients were so concerned with life and death, they created religions to perpetuate life through institutionalized sex practices. Later it reverted to more symbolism because it became not acceptable to have it so out in the open. Anyway, the week thing made me do a lot of rethinking of why I should keep a particular day of the week as being holy. Not sure, exactly but I am working on it.
edit on 3-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 


But careful of who you criticize, AprilSky, just because you believe something doesn't automatically make yours the superior notion or even true; the same goes for me, we are entitled to our opinions, be kind and considerate about it.
Thank you.

God Himself is only a spirit (though if you look it at the Trinity it will get more complex) and the rest of creation is His work, having spiritual and physical shape. Just as angels and cherubim have entered into this world though their domain is in Heaven so are these stories possible: from the angel that comforted Hagar after she was ousted from Abraham to the visions of Ezekiel surely anything is possible with God.

And why do you say the life of Jesus Christ is only a symbolic story? (I am truly curious)


Many people have a narrow scope of vision and will refuse to accept someone else's position, this is to be expected, especially on the Internet. If you are to present a foreign idea to a mass of people you should be ready to be subject to criticism and rebuke. Also, to cast off Jesus' life as mere symbolic when over 3 billion people (Christians and Muslims) accept that He lived you must be ready to bear a storm of complaint, especially so when over 2 billion hold Him as God Incarnate.
Be friendly and deal accordingly and remember to not let prejudice overtake you, it can be hard.

From your comment you yourself seem as the one with a narrow point of view and I am compelled to show this.
Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Just a friendly reminder, people aren't the easiest to make accept a new idea.

Also, I know of those who came before Jesus and yet I hold faith in Him; why? For I see them all as imposters to Him and He the true light. Odd maybe, but I am entitled to such as you are to your opinion.

Now friend, be kind, and I am sorry if my previous post was found offensive in some sort to your thoughts (I never intended for such) though you mentioned nothing of the like.

Lastly, some sources to how you have come to the conclusions you have would be helpful and slips of movie don't necessarily garner great respect or authority.


Nevertheless, may God bless you on your search for truth



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by JeshurunAndronicus
 


Unfortunately Christians do not seem to understand boundaries, they seem totally oblivious to the fact most of us already know what the Christian religion invokes and we have soundly rejected it in principle, seeing as the symbolic story that it is ... not that there is not truth in it but just not how Christians view it in my opinion.

Still they want to drone on warning of Satan and trying to force all their fears on everyone else and they have this arrogant I am going to be saved and you are going to burn because you do not believe attitude.

You can believe what you want and write as many threads as you want but please do not do it here, it is not an insult, it is simply that I do not need to be preached to and it is most unwelcome here.

I have already tried to get others to stop but on and on and on .. from now on I will totally ignore all obvious Christian posts.

edit on 3-7-2011 by AprilSky because: grammar



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 07:39 PM
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Dear AprilSky,
Thanks for posting that dream it was a very interesting read.

Side note about me. Maybe 10 years ago or so, I began to question religion and see the flaws in it. I still do theses days to some degree. After not knowing who to trust or what to believe, I went in search for ancient wisdom. This search has taken me on quite the spiritual journey and I have learned many things along the way. The wisdom I found most enlightening I found in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita, in Buddhism, Taoism, and of course the teachings of Jesus Christ. (The middle section of the book, Be Here Now encompasses all of them. I found all organized religions to have flaws in my mind, however there is always more to learn and more spiritual growth to make, and basically for me it’s about finding the good teachings and leaving the bad stuff behind. Not letting myself be controlled or obligated along the way.

Enough about me. Although I find your dream fascinating, I now find myself concerned for your well being. “Daddy” seemed concerned too. I think one of two things are happening here. Either A. You are having mental issues. or B. You are in contact with evil spirits. Demons have you. It sounds that they have gained your trust and now have you under there control to some degree, with your permission. What do you think?

About the blood lines, this sounds like the truth manipulated.
Remember this stuff is on a spiritual level. Human bodies die, it’s the soul that is eternal. That’s what’s important. They know this. All things material perishes. Now listen, there are two “blood lines” (in a sense) those who follow God and those who reject God. It’s not that hard to cross over. Those who follow God would be called “whores” be the evil ones. They may also call them “elites” in a sense that they are favored by God. Besides human spirits, which these demons are always trying to pull away from God, the Bible talks about angles and fallen angles, those who were cast out. It would make sense that there lot would be to look after the human spirits. I would imagine that they can’t effect us much, especially if we don’t go asking them to. But I know only very little about these other spirits. I found the stuff in Genesis about the sons of god sleeping with the daughters of man interesting but don’t know entirely what to make of it. I have a couple ideas though. The Book of Enoch, also a Dead Sea Scroll, picks up where the Bible leaves off about Enoch. The Book of Enoch is about Enoch traveling with the “watchers” to meet God. God is angry with the watchers that sent Enoch and Enoch finds himself as a go between. Sorry I only read pieces of it so that all I can say about that.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 

. . .they have this arrogant I am going to be saved and you are going to burn because you do not believe attitude.
Seriously. I have had Christians friends tell me such, that they can't wait to see all those people burn. Really weird, but it seems that it is not only allowed, but actually encouraged in some churches.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 




Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


jude 1: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

there's 2 possibilties with that verse either: 1) it's a reference back to a passage in the non biblical text called the book of enoch, or it's a reference to genesis 6:2
and even the book of enoch has 2 possiblities: 1) either a reference to the stars (called angels and stars interchangeably) who got caught in the gravity well of a super massive black hole in an active galaxy or 2) a reference to the angels who came to earth and messed up the human genome.

the book of enoch was found amongst the dead sea scrolls

here are the references

enoch

CHAPTER VI.
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'


CHAPTER VII.
1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

CHAPTER IX
1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth.

AND finally the passages about the stars of heaven


CHAPTER XVIII
11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) ⌈for ten thousand years⌉.'

CHAPTER XXI
1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars ⌈of heaven⌉, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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I don't want to keep posting bible verses but I think there are a few that some people need to think long and hard about because you go to heaven with the body you have NOW you are reborn (symbolically) to a different world, not to a spirit world.

Heaven is NOT for the dead.

Many people unfortunately live their life's like death is the highlight ... it isn't, that is were you simply get returned here
.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


God is interested in our physical bodies ... the below relates to us being the CROP which is traded and sold etc


1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


and finally why would body make our bodies in a very special way to suit him/them, if he/they were only interested in the spirit?


1 Corinthians 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

1 Corinthians 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:


God is interested in the inner workings of our bodies, our wombs URN and pineal glands, why would these verses even exist if God has no need of the human body.

Of course he has need of it ... it goes with his physical body!



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by IndieA

Enough about me. Although I find your dream fascinating, I now find myself concerned for your well being. “Daddy” seemed concerned too. I think one of two things are happening here. Either A. You are having mental issues. or B. You are in contact with evil spirits. Demons have you. It sounds that they have gained your trust and now have you under there control to some degree, with your permission. What do you think?



You seem to forget though-out the bible many people were contacted via dreams were they not?

Also as nice as your general reply is, you still loaded it up with Christian mambo jumbo of evil spirits etc etc ...

I don't believe in such things and I am always treated with the highest respect and the utmost care for my well being given.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 


Mark 12:26-27
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Now these patriarchs are men who have passed away (physical death) but were and are spiritually alive. These are the dead and living Jesus Christ is talking about. He is not God of the dead because the dead are distant from Him and refuse Him while the living accept Him and embrace and follow Him.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These mention that God created us and we belong to Him, He hath preeminence over us because He understands more than us. Bought with a price? The sacrifice of Jesus Christ that allowed us to glimpse at Him and His glory. Our body is the temple of God because with it we are able to communicate with Him which is why He doesn't want us to defile it. That which He has made perfectly to communicate with He doesn't want to be distorted, for He loves to communicate with us and loves to hear from us.
For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

1 Corinthians 12:24-27
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

In this Saint Paul relates that we (humanity) are all a part of the body of Christ and all have our part to serve for Him. With each injury we give to each other we suffer, with each movement of love we receive the same. That part which lacked? Those which are most injurious to one's well-being for the cause of God such as prophets, apostles, teachers, doers of miracles, etc.

Again, God does not have a physical body (except God the Son that has a spiritual body) but is all and surpasses all.

I Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

This is Solomon talking about the Temple that he built for God, representing the abode God has with all people even though He surpasses all; He is still with each person individually despite being beyond comprehension and size.

May God lead you into the light



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 


People were contacted via dreams in the Bible, but that does not mean you have been. Try the spirits, whether they be of God or of their own lusts. If you cannot wait to dream there is something wrong, for it is only a dream and not real. I like to dream, too, but there must be a limit. Also, if any physical pleasure is derived from such occurrences I highly doubt they work for God, for God does not care for a physical pleasure but rather a spiritual one. My two cents.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 09:54 PM
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A woman/isha ("garment"/the flesh) encompasses a man/ish ("fire being"); and this woman dies (is extended) in childbirth, transforming the man by her extension. That which we have been is the womb of our becoming. The emergence is Zerach, a "lifting of the light." Zerach-- the emergence of the light body (soul)-- appears first, but is quickly swallowed up by Peretz-- by faulty expressions (soul) engendered in the experience of mortality/enosh. When those expressions have been fully comprehended and measured, they are overcome; and Zerach is, at last, truly born.

An imperfect son of mortality/enosh clings to the mortal and perishes with it: such a son is stillborn. In the metaphor of Peretz/Zerach, it does not gain the inheritance/birthright of the firstborn. A perfected son of mortality puts on immortality and rises from the cocoon of the flesh in an imperishable form, the body of light. The scarlet thread-- the karmic trail of blood/life-- accompanies the elect son (Zerach) through all of his struggles with Peretz in the cocoon/womb/flesh.

Not every incarnation produces a butterfly (perfected soul/light body): adversity exists; impairments occur. The angel who fails to complete its transformations in an incarnation is not lost, however: it remains immortal, a spark of HaShem. It is gathered, again, into the lake of fire above, where it is purged and purified. The aborted soul that was in process of creation in an incarnation but that failed to reach perfection is lost; but that loss does not involve the life of the angel. The immortal angel can be sent forth again, into a new cocoon.

The light body is formed by the release/surrender/ of the full nature of the light energies (angelic character) resident in an incarnation as the incarnate angel is aligned with/conformed to the perfect unity of the Life Force, the Spirit of HaShem. This is analogous to the formation of the physical body within the natural womb. A partial release of energies creates an imperfect body/soul/, which cannot be sustained. Unlike with the natural mother, who survives childbirth by retaining those things necessary for her own life, the chrysalis must utterly abandon itself to complete transformation if it is to emerge from the cocoon in a new form. This abandonment of self releases every expression within the chrysalis: the scarlet thread is entirely spooled from the skein of yarn into the garment of light being formed.

Again, I've written many words and have failed to write clearly. Discussing the pe soul and the bet soul is like discussing the double helix of the DNA string. It is possible to make the jump between the two understandings, but it's no easy matter to explain exactly what you're about.

I've had visions of people I know, seeing them in their angelic form as they were previous to incarnation. That form is an unstable cloud of fire, like a sun. The core, I understand, becomes the fiery grub for purposes of incarnation. In comparison to the light body we are destined to attain, the earthen vessel is like a bushel over a lamp: it obscures the light within; and the light within must eventually burn up the earthen vessel, releasing the incarnate fire. To come to an enduring house, our souls must be fully transformed, as also our bodies in that great day when the last of our enemies is vanquished.

To appear, however, light must inhabit a medium. Without a medium to differentiate between them, light and darkness are indistinguishable. "Space" is black in full sunshine because there is nothing to receive and reflect the light. Blessed be The Name of YHWH, who divides the light from darkness.

"Now we see through a glass darkly...": the soul's imperfection is both measurement of the darkness within and also the very means by which we are able to be drawn further into the light. Do not fear darkness: YHWH has winked at it for our sakes, and now our Light is come.

Perfected, we shall see Him "face to face"-- that is, "face upon face"-- even as it is also written: "I know that in my flesh shall I see YHWH...." Blessed be HaShem, and may His faces shine forth continually from within each of us. Shalom.

www.crowndiamond.org...



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 


I am aware of reincarnation in Christianity though I fail to see how it applies directly to your views. I am divided on the issue though I see its sense. Actually, I see it reaffirming my statements to an extent.


Though truly, why do you present this statement? It's been a while seen I've read such like, since I was about 15 or 16 so not too long ago. I am curious how it supports all that you have stated for I cannot see a correlation. Anyone can come upon a website and see some significance to their statements. While I see reincarnation's use I do not exactly find it necessary; yet, I am divided on such a topic, though where once I was adamantly for it I have read the Bible to such a degree that I no longer see such a need for reincarnation. Oh well, I look forward to your response.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:24 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 


isn't that like kabbalah?
how is that any different (as far as elitist texts go) from the bible?



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by AprilSky
 





Also as nice as your general reply is, you still loaded it up with Christian mambo jumbo of evil spirits etc etc ...

I don't believe in such things and I am always treated with the highest respect and the utmost care for my well being given.


Everything aside, I think you would agree, you are being contacted by some entities. I just want to warn you that these entities may not have your best interest in mind and be aware, you are being used by them, for whatever reason that may be.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I thought it was something like New Age. Either way, I don't really care for it. If there is a truth hidden away that others know but will not allow others to know there is something wrong.



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by JeshurunAndronicus
reply to post by undo
 


I thought it was something like New Age. Either way, I don't really care for it. If there is a truth hidden away that others know but will not allow others to know there is something wrong.


it's interesting that it mentions isha and enosh. i did a study on that, as i had read a website about the word adam and the word ish, both being translated from hebrew into english, as "man" yet the verses themselves indicated the ish and the adam were entirely different as far as their station in life, yet both males. (ish and isha, male and female but apparently not exactly human? weird verses involved)



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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I am well aware what I have to say is greatly unpopular ... why would people choose to believe what I have to say when believing in Christianity offers paradise, simply by believing?

That is why the religion was conjured up in the first place ... it is hard to manipulate people if only women get into to heaven and only some select women at that.

So the elite unable to manipulate people with the truth, made up nonsense and hid the truth. They replaced the woman Goddess with Jesus and strained believability by saying he died on the cross for us and yes his father forgives us our sins because we put his son to death.

So it's OK if you have committed crimes because Jesus died to save you from them...

I hate to say it but it is complete twaddle!!!

LOOK before Christianity and you will find the truth, spoken of here...



Evidence that it is women is clearly spoken of in the bible ... which secretly hides the goddess in Revelations.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

also it can be found here ...


Are we not instructed that a woman will be saved-- not hurt of the second death-- if she continue in child bearing? Let us not lose hope! The wilderness travail is long and difficult because of sin, but HaShem has promised that He is able to bring us to the birth.

www.crowndiamond.org...


Sorry to rain on all you Christians parade!







edit on 3-7-2011 by AprilSky because: grammar



posted on Jul, 3 2011 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by IndieA
reply to post by AprilSky
 





Also as nice as your general reply is, you still loaded it up with Christian mambo jumbo of evil spirits etc etc ...

I don't believe in such things and I am always treated with the highest respect and the utmost care for my well being given.


Everything aside, I think you would agree, you are being contacted by some entities. I just want to warn you that these entities may not have your best interest in mind and be aware, you are being used by them, for whatever reason that may be.


Quite true.

It is more than apparent.




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