f-22 vs 5x f-15s = ... ;))))

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
HARM has received many updates over the years to its systems. The main problem you all don't realize is that you're comparing more modern equipment to stuff America had for decades. ALARM was made in the late 80's, wasn't it? HARM was out in the 60's.

yet you said yourslef that HARM was just as good if not better than ALARM did you or did you not?

American UAV's give us an overwhelming advantage when it comes to reconnaissance missions. The Navy is looking for a cooperative system, not just relying on a P-7. It's only going to be part of a comprehensive net.

yes in comes the UAV's now tell me which frontline squadron has UAV's as standard kit?
and this net will it be as unpenitrable as past nets?

yet you said yourslef that HARM was just as good if not better than ALARM did you or did you not?

Like I said, it's received key updates since Kosovo.

yes in comes the UAV's now tell me which frontline squadron has UAV's as standard kit?
and this net will it be as unpenitrable as past nets?

There are only something like 20 Nimrods in the British Navy. UAV's aren't that special of technology on their own. Even after some were shot down in Iraq we stated there was no threat of losing the technology as it was old. UAV's will be performing many of the roles of a P-3/P-7 in just a few years.

Originally posted by devilwasp
yes in comes the UAV's now tell me which frontline squadron has UAV's as standard kit?

The Royal Artillery have had UAV's for quite a long time...

You guys seem to think that the Navy has no new toys for spying.......

Maybe you missed this.

UAV's have been in the US millitary as well for quite some time. The difference is that we have armed them

You Europeans have some very good stuff, don't get me wrong - but the fact is that because the US has more money, we can buy better stuff. I mean for christ sakes, we are deploying our 3rd and 4th stealth aircraft and no one else has a single one. You guys are lucky to get the JSF.......

A couple quick points
1) sminkeypinkey and others, The so called FU atttude is nothing of the sort it is simply a recognition of facts, You are not a U.S. citizen, do not vote in U.S. elections, have no say in U.S. politics and to be blunt your opinion of what the U.S. government is doining has no weight or importance whatsoever. I personally feel that the budget cutting of the U.K. military is the stupidest thing the U.K. government could possibly do however my opinion on that subject doesn't matter becuse I am not a citizen of the U.K. Further more you have no right whatsoever to judge the actions of the U.S. government, the only government whose actions you have the right to judge is your own.
2) the European militaries have some very good equipment as has been shown time and time again, Every single piece of U.S. equipment is not superior to every single piece of non U.S. equipment. However as a nation there are some things the U.S. does better than anyone else in the world, and building air dominat aircraft is one of them.

finally the fact that Americans look at everything from the perspective of how it affects the U.S. first and how it affects the rest of the world second is neither arrogance nor selfishness, it s simply human nature. The reasons many Americans don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us (myself included) are to name a few,
1) we like ourselves and as a nation have great self esteem, therefore the negative opinions of others are irrelevant.
2) we recognise that no matter what we do some people are going to dislike us and our nations policies therfore it makes more sense to simply do what we feel is right and not worry about the opinions of others.
3) We can, we are strong enough that no nation or coalition of nations can force us to do anything we don't want to.

Originally posted by mwm1331
A couple quick points
1) sminkeypinkey and others, The so called FU atttude is nothing of the sort it is simply a recognition of facts, You are not a U.S. citizen, do not vote in U.S. elections, have no say in U.S. politics and to be blunt your opinion of what the U.S. government is doining has no whatsoever.

- Who said it did? This is a public debating board. It's whole purpose is the to and fro of ideas and opinion. What has nationality got to do with whether one can express a view or not?

......and who the hell said anything about "weight or importance"; what's that all about, huh!?

I personally feel that the budget cutting of the U.K. military is the stupidest thing the U.K. government could possibly do

- I'd love to know why. Do you think we'll have need of massive armed forces. We keep having reviews that say there is no justifiable reason to have an especially big military........do you know about this? Are your leaders hoping to chew up a generation or two of our kids (in persuit of your interests) in some new wars or something?

however my opinion on that subject doesn't matter becuse I am not a citizen of the U.K.

- So what? You're entitled to your opinion. Feel free. That's the whole point of this place isn't it?

It's one way to find out about places you might know next to nothing about, isn't it? That's good, right?

Further more you have no right whatsoever to judge the actions of the U.S. government, the only government whose actions you have the right to judge is your own.

- I'm entitled to my views as everyone else is of theirs. I'll debate my views and happily stand corrected when and if I'm wrong. Wise up.

the European militaries have some very good equipment as has been shown time and time again, Every single piece of U.S. equipment is not superior to every single piece of non U.S. equipment.

- how true, and how very refreshing an attitude to see here too.

However as a nation there are some things the U.S. does better than anyone else in the world, and building air dominat aircraft is one of them.

- Now you go and spoil it with some nonsense. It's true (of course) that the US makes good kit. However "building air dominat aircraft" is a skill you do not have a particularly impressive track record at.

True from the mid 70's things have been much improved but, since the end of the 'cold war', frankly, who cares?

finally the fact that Americans look at everything from the perspective of how it affects the U.S. first and how it affects the rest of the world second is neither arrogance nor selfishness, it s simply human nature.

- That is true to a point, however it is easy to pass that point to the point of stupidity.

Something you are doing with the environment and in world finances IMO.....and these topics respect no borders so we should all feel free to have a say IMO.

The reasons many Americans don't care what the rest of the world thinks of us (myself included) are to name a few,
1) we like ourselves and as a nation have great self esteem, therefore the negative opinions of others are irrelevant.

- so you think you are all completely great and therefore feel free to discard the opinions of others every time; why do some of you guys always have to take this 'self esteem' stuff too far (insecurity)?

Wow, arrogant and stupid. Thank God that isn't a representative attitude!

2) we recognise that no matter what we do some people are going to dislike us and our nations policies therfore it makes more sense to simply do what we feel is right and not worry about the opinions of others.

- well there's a self-fulfilling juvenille selfish excuse to do nothing to improve matters if ever there were.

3) We can, we are strong enough that no nation or coalition of nations can force us to do anything we don't want to.

- You can do the Garbo impersonation as long as you like but you need the rest of us. If only for trade.

Here's the 'real politic'.

You can be a genuine partner or the rest of us can gently shut you out.

You can have your NAFTA (LMAO!) and 'we'll' have our EU.

(BTW the EU does 80% of it's trade internally so we aren't too fussed either way if you want to be stupid about it......yous aren't the only ones capable of a 'FU' attitude.....and your current leaders are currently doing very well at getting one going across the globe)

Sminkey you are so arrogant you can't even see the most basic truths.
I don't bother to critisize the U.K. government (except as in my last post to make a point) because it doesnt concern me].
The fact is the U.S.'s military expenditures doesn't concern you.

Lets put it another way, f my neighbor decides to spend 100k to build a new wing onto his house, the fact that I may think its a dumb idea is irelevant because its his house. We feel that having a strong military is important so we are spending our money on the F22. Thats our choce and whether we spend money on the F22 the F18 or trained elephants doesn't affect you in any way. You are like a nosy neighbor who keeps track of what everyone on the block is doing, and passes judgement on everything they do.

As for Amercas atttude toward the rest of the world its very simple, the U.S.A comes first. Big surprise we care more about ourselves than we do about others, just like europeans africans, all humans and every other species on the planet.

You disagree with our policies? So what, we are doing what we believe is best for us.
Let me put it another way, some of the people I work with like me and some don't but I don't really care why those who don't don't. I like myself,and as long as I am happy with myself then I have pleased the only person in the world I have a responsibility to please, Me. The same goes for nations, as long as Americans or britons or frenchmen or germans are happy with Amerca, or the U.K. or France or Germany than that is all that matters. Whether the french like the germans or the germans like the italians is irelevant. It is not your job to please anyone other than you. Now if the citizens of the U.K. believe that it is the U.K.'s responsibillity to make the rest of europe like them, then bully for you, but we don't have to feel the same way. We choose to make Americans happy with America.

Its not a matter of merica first and the rest of the world FU its a matter of this is who we are and you will just have to accept us as who we are. We are not going to change to please anyone other than ourselves.

And as for the E.U. trading, as someone mentioned earlier the U.S. has a trade defecit with the E.U. which means you make more off trade with us than we do.

Why does Europe constantly feel the need to tell us how to run our country?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Sminkey you are so arrogant you can't even see the most basic truths.
I don't bother to critisize the U.K. government (except as in my last post to make a point) because it doesnt concern me].
The fact is the U.S.'s military expenditures doesn't concern you.

A. it does concern us you know why? because we are allies and we like to know what the world is up to.
leet us take your scenario.. why were u looking in the first place? if it doesnt concern u then why were u watching? tha fact is it does concern u cause it can make u look bad.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Lets put it another way, f my neighbor decides to spend 100k to build a new wing onto his house, the fact that I may think its a dumb idea is irelevant because its his house. We feel that having a strong military is important so we are spending our money on the F22. Thats our choce and whether we spend money on the F22 the F18 or trained elephants doesn't affect you in any way. You are like a nosy neighbor who keeps track of what everyone on the block is doing, and passes judgement on everything they do.

yes and so what we have the most exsperience in the world at military projects we arnt critizeing we are offering advice. some may critize

Originally posted by mwm1331
As for Amercas atttude toward the rest of the world its very simple, the U.S.A comes first. Big surprise we care more about ourselves than we do about others, just like europeans africans, all humans and every other species on the planet.

actually not every race cares about themselves first but thats the standard gov policy.

Originally posted by mwm1331
You disagree with our policies? So what, we are doing what we believe is best for us.
Let me put it another way, some of the people I work with like me and some don't but I don't really care why those who don't don't. I like myself,and as long as I am happy with myself then I have pleased the only person in the world I have a responsibility to please, Me. The same goes for nations, as long as Americans or britons or frenchmen or germans are happy with Amerca, or the U.K. or France or Germany than that is all that matters. Whether the french like the germans or the germans like the italians is irelevant. It is not your job to please anyone other than you. Now if the citizens of the U.K. believe that it is the U.K.'s responsibillity to make the rest of europe like them, then bully for you, but we don't have to feel the same way. We choose to make Americans happy with America.

that view is kinda stupid sure u just wanna make americans happy but you gota learn if u just please ur self then all you'll have for frineds is yourself is america ready to be ally less?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Its not a matter of merica first and the rest of the world FU its a matter of this is who we are and you will just have to accept us as who we are. We are not going to change to please anyone other than ourselves.

you can be like that. its your right.

Originally posted by mwm1331
And as for the E.U. trading, as someone mentioned earlier the U.S. has a trade defecit with the E.U. which means you make more off trade with us than we do.

yes we do. so why dont you change that instead of wasteing money on planes that no one can match in 20 years.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Why does Europe constantly feel the need to tell us how to run our country?

because we've been here longer. we have exsperience. we know what happens when u waste money. its your choice to follow or disreagard it.

Yes devilwasp the nations of Europe have been here longer, and we have learned from your example and the example of all history. The fact is a strong military is essential to any nation. Those that have one are masters of thier own destiny those that don't are mastered by others. Education, welfare, public parks etc. all are useless without the abillity to overcome any foe, possible or present.

my thoughts exsactly.
i really hate how parts of the UK military are lacking.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Sminkey you are so arrogant you can't even see the most basic truths.

- Really? "Arrogant", am I? My definition of "Arrogant" is 'Aggressively assertive or presumptive'? You sure that's what you mean? Cos from what I see in your responses mwm1331 that seems to fit your views to a tee.

Where have I been aggressive? Where are my presumptions?

I'll agree that I can be assertive but isn't that - partially - what free debate is about? Asserting points and counter-points?

I don't bother to critisize the U.K. government (except as in my last post to make a point) because it doesnt concern me].
The fact is the U.S.'s military expenditures doesn't concern you.

- Given that US actions do affect the rest of the world (seeing as there is only the one world we all have to share) and it's overall security situation ummm, sorry, I think it does.

It also affects 'me' in the sense that the money your government is borrowing - like there is no tomorrow - to pay for all this affects the global economies' financial situation. Grossly and with much risk.

The fact that the US is sucking up funds on the world markets as it is is driving up the cost of money the world over. That's a practical effect to me and everyone else.

Lets put it another way, f my neighbor decides to spend 100k to build a new wing onto his house, the fact that I may think its a dumb idea is irelevant because its his house.

- Sorry but this is really a pretty daft irrelevant analogy. I really don't mean to insult you but the situation you outline is nothing like similar except at the most purile superficial level.

We feel that having a strong military is important so we are spending our money on the F22. Thats our choce and whether we spend money on the F22 the F18 or trained elephants doesn't affect you in any way.

- No. The money your government is spending on these projects is borrowed and is affecting everyone else in the world right now.

You are like a nosy neighbor who keeps track of what everyone on the block is doing, and passes judgement on everything they do.

- like I said this is not a good analogy. Besides I thought we were allies, you know friends who could let each other know when one was going 'too far'?

But then again with the 'With us or against us' crowd in charge for now and the example of what happened to France where's the surprise?

As for Amercas atttude toward the rest of the world its very simple, the U.S.A comes first. Big surprise we care more about ourselves than we do about others, just like europeans africans, all humans and every other species on the planet.

- Wow, nice mature attitudes guy.

Maybe you'll notice sometime that there is one human race on the only habitable planet we know of with the single functional environment we all require to live?

You disagree with our policies? So what, we are doing what we believe is best for us.

- Fine, the debate will go on. BTW in case you didn't notice, you and your views are not representative of all Americans.

Let me put it another way, some of the people I work with like me and some don't but I don't really care why those who don't don't. I like myself,and as long as I am happy with myself then I have pleased the only person in the world I have a responsibility to please, Me.

- Yeah ok, but you're back to fairly superficial analogies again and you're as usual very light on your reliance on and need for others.

If you don't mind me saying you sound like a loner or a very young person.

The same goes for nations,

- No it doesn't. This comparison is so utterly false.

Nations need and rely on each other. We interconnect at the very least in our financial and our security worlds.

as long as Americans or britons or frenchmen or germans are happy with Amerca, or the U.K. or France or Germany than that is all that matters.

- Not where there is a global system of alliances and relationships it doesn't.

Whether the french like the germans or the germans like the italians is irelevant. It is not your job to please anyone other than you. Now if the citizens of the U.K. believe that it is the U.K.'s responsibillity to make the rest of europe like them, then bully for you, but we don't have to feel the same way. We choose to make Americans happy with America.

- I think you could do with a little thought about the whole concept of mutual assistance and mutual benefit. This 'please yourself alone' nonsense is so 19th century, short-sighted and let's not forget a failure.

Its not a matter of merica first and the rest of the world FU its a matter of this is who we are and you will just have to accept us as who we are.

- That's just infantile adolescent headstrong rubbish. We all (that is most of the grown-ups who run governments/world affairs) give and take.

We are not going to change to please anyone other than ourselves.

- were your views representative of the majority of Americans that kind of commment would be quite worrying. But you don't and it is, at the end of the day, quite funny in a childish way really.

And as for the E.U. trading, as someone mentioned earlier the U.S. has a trade defecit with the E.U. which means you make more off trade with us than we do.

- Yup we do. You need our exports because you cannot supply your own markets yourselves.

That's all very well up to a point.

The thing is that in addition to your worryingly vast record government spending deficit (mostly being flushed down the lavatory on armed forces and equipment you can't possibly actually 'need') the US also has a trade deficit which is also enormous and, hmm, how shall I put this? Not helpful to say the least.

Again you have 'gone too far' and it is affecting the rest of us adversely. It affects the dollar and that affects the rest of the globe.

Do you not see this or something?

Why does Europe constantly feel the need to tell us how to run our country?

- Europeans like myself have US relatives. I'm not telling anyone how to do anything. I have raised issues I feel are relevant. It's called debate. Feel free to respond to the points raised.

It's kind of the whole point of coming here, no?

First of all sminkey the government defecit you keep whining about is not money borrowed from other countries in the way you make it seem, It is borrowed in the form of debt instruments which nations and individuals purchase as investments. Nearly every country on earth purchases U.S. T-bills and Bonds from the U.S. government because they are the safest investment in the world. Our defecit could increase by any amount you can think of and it doesn't take one thin dime out of your countries economy. Our defecit affects no one but ourselves, the U.S. debt is financed and guaranteed by the "full faith and credit" of the U.S. government.

Second the dollar was intentionally weakened as a way torReduce the trade defecit with europe by
A) making Amercan goods more affordable and attractive to those in the E.U.
B) Make european goods more expensive and less attractive to U.S. consumers

While the economies of all countries are interconeected and interdependant to large extent, If you want to whine about the negative effects of a countries irresponsible fiscal policies on your economy why dont you start with france and germany?

And you still seem unable to grasp my most basic point, your arrogance lies in thinking you know whats good for americans and that we don't, and your irational belief that just because we are allies we have to be like you, or run our country in a way you approve of.
We don',t we will continue to do what we beleve is in our nations best interests because if we trust the rest of the world to tell us what is in our best interest we will end up doing what is in the best interest of those we listen to.

Yes America and The U.K are allies it does not mean however that we must live as you would wish us to, or have the priorities you think we should, As for my maturity level, you neither know me nor anything about me so your opinions are uninformed and ignorant. Waste your time tryng to make everyone like or approve of you if you wish I will do what is best for me and my family.

Sminkey I am surprised you have not yet learned that no matter what you do there will always be people who don't like you. Those that are friends are friends because they like who you are. If they are only your friends because you change to fit what they think you should be they are not friends. If a country is the U.S.'s ally it is because it is in thier own interest to be our ally and if we have to change to suit them that alliance is not in our best interest.

On a final note if you think your government puts the best interests of other governments first then for your sake I really hope you are wrong.

Oh and by the way sminkey,

You should check a dictionary before you attempt to define a word as "your" definition of arrogant is incorrect.

Arrogant.
1) Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2) Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak

You think that the U.S. a soverign country should change its defense spending because you disagree with it over the decisions made by the elected officials of that country.
Yeah it fits you are arrogant.

[edit on 25-8-2004 by mwm1331]

Originally posted by mwm1331
First of all sminkey the government defecit you keep whining about is not money borrowed from other countries in the way you make it seem, It is borrowed in the form of debt instruments which nations and individuals purchase as investments. Nearly every country on earth purchases U.S. T-bills and Bonds from the U.S. government because they are the safest investment in the world. Our defecit could increase by any amount you can think of and it doesn't take one thin dime out of your countries economy. Our defecit affects no one but ourselves, the U.S. debt is financed and guaranteed by the "full faith and credit" of the U.S. government.

Second the dollar was intentionally weakened as a way torReduce the trade defecit with europe by
A) making Amercan goods more affordable and attractive to those in the E.U.
B) Make european goods more expensive and less attractive to U.S. consumers

- We shall see.

However you put it you are borrowing on the international markets to 'fund' your deficit don't go blaming anyone but yourselves if it all goes 'breasts up' though.

While the economies of all countries are interconeected and interdependant to large extent, If you want to whine about the negative effects of a countries irresponsible fiscal policies on your economy why dont you start with france and germany?

- er, whining?! Since when was this anything to do with whining?

Is this the current form in the US? Anyone making comments you don't like is whining?! LMAO.

You're the ones with the record borrowing. France and German growth may be sluggish at the moment but that is nothing like the 'risk' your borrowing is.....and if you think devaluation is a great way of 'solving' the problems I suggest you check out the UK experience. We tried that several times. Sometimes it helps, usually it doesn't.

And you still seem unable to grasp my most basic point, your arrogance lies in thinking you know whats good for americans and that we don't,

- In most places that's called having a view. Expressing an opinion. Freedom of speech, it's supposed to be what it's all about isn't it?

I am not telling anyone what to do I am putting my 2cents/pence worth. That's all.

and your irational belief that just because we are allies we have to be like you, or run our country in a way you approve of.

- Ha ha ha ha LMAO. Jayzuss that's rich coming from an American right now. You are funny.

No, it's about debate, you know differing points of view. I haven't said anyone had to be like anyone, actually, if you actually read my comments..

We don',t we will continue to do what we beleve is in our nations best interests because if we trust the rest of the world to tell us what is in our best interest we will end up doing what is in the best interest of those we listen to.

- As I said there's a little truth in that (obviously) but you seem utterly blinkered to our shared interests - or that any of us actually have any shared interests at all.

Yes America and The U.K are allies it does not mean however that we must live as you would wish us to, or have the priorities you think we should,

- Again, when you act contrary to the shared interests of us all we should be saying so, yes?

As for my maturity level, you neither know me nor anything about me so your opinions are uninformed and ignorant. Waste your time tryng to make everyone like or approve of you if you wish I will do what is best for me and my family.

- I don't know what you are now on about. Do you consciously act on the contrived basis of trying to make or not make people like you?

I really couldn't give a monkeys whether you act in a social manner in your life or not. Your gain/loss, it's nothing to me.

Sminkey I am surprised you have not yet learned that no matter what you do there will always be people who don't like you. Those that are friends are friends because they like who you are. If they are only your friends because you change to fit what they think you should be they are not friends.

- Is this little paragraph meant to have a point? It's rather pithy and silly IMO.

If a country is the U.S.'s ally it is because it is in thier own interest to be our ally and if we have to change to suit them that alliance is not in our best interest.

- True, but again you are, once again, completely dismissing and ignoring the whole idea of shared interest and mutual benefit.

On a final note if you think your government puts the best interests of other governments first then for your sake I really hope you are wrong.

- There are times when it is in your interests to act on the basis of mutual shared benefits and not just for the instant immeadiate short sighted self interest.

[edit on 26-8-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Oh and by the way sminkey,

You should check a dictionary before you attempt to define a word as "your" definition of arrogant is incorrect.

Arrogant.
1) Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2) Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak

- So your (unnamed) dictionary is different, big deal (mine was Collins BTW).

That definition still does not fit with my expressing what is clearly a personal opinion and view being 'arrogance'.

You think that the U.S. a soverign country should change its defense spending because you disagree with it over the decisions made by the elected officials of that country.
Yeah it fits you are arrogant.

- No that's called a point of view and I have, IMO, reasonable reasons for that view. I have expressed that opinion/view on a public debating board. I am not making anyone do anything. You can respond, agree or diagree that is your right. That is the purpose of this place.

That's not arrogant but your insistance that it is is actually ignorant.

You are manifestly ignorant of what arrogance actually is.

......and BTW are you seriously claiming that taking a differing view over the actions of 'elected officials' is arrogance?!

Jayzuss, what are you like? God help you!

This is getting off topic here, this is an aviation board. Nationalistic jingoism isn't discussion its mental masturbation. The biggest guns.........indeed. Freud would be amused by it all.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

However as a nation there are some things the U.S. does better than anyone else in the world, and building air dominat aircraft is one of them.

- Now you go and spoil it with some nonsense. It's true (of course) that the US makes good kit. However "building air dominat aircraft" is a skill you do not have a particularly impressive track record at.

True from the mid 70's things have been much improved but, since the end of the 'cold war', frankly, who cares?

I must disagree with the statement that we do not have a good track record of building air doinate aircraft. Since WWII, we have had the best aircraft in the world. here is a number for you: 100+ thats A2A kills of US piloted F-15's during their service. Here's another number for you: 0. As in the number of US 15's lost to enemy planes. Our enemies have had about 3 decades to take one out in air to air combat, NONE have done so. The numbers don't lie.

[edit on 25-8-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by mwm1331
Lets put it another way, f my neighbor decides to spend 100k to build a new wing onto his house, the fact that I may think its a dumb idea is irelevant because its his house.

If he were spending 100k on guns, I think at the very least you would want to know.

mwm1331, on the basis of "it's our money and none of your business" then you don't mind what Saddam was doing in his country...

[edit on 25-8-2004 by Cjwinnit]

because we've been here longer. we have exsperience. we know what happens when u waste money. its your choice to follow or disreagard it.

Interesting. So, as Greece in the Olympics longer, this means we have to use there strategies for vollyball because they were the founders? Not sure what you mean, as before in another post you stated you would kill a partner to kill a enemy. Sad how you think you "Brits" are always right. This concludes this, we spend out money different ways. Economy, and military. It just dosn't make sense DevilWasp, please I would recommend to YOU, that you stop posting, why? Because we are the ONLY SUPERPOWER in the WORLD. Thank you.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

I must disagree with the statement that we do not have a good track record of building air doinate aircraft. Since WWII, we have had the best aircraft in the world.

- Well sorry but I disagree. I think that from 1945 - 1975ish it is quite clear that you did not particularly. Others made better and 'yours' weren't 'the best' at all.

What you had were competitive aircraft, I grant you.

...... and a series of governments that, in collaboration with your large aero-manufacturers, by fair means and most definetely foul, managed to close down or force out of the market every other nation's individual military aero-industry.

here is a number for you: 100+ thats A2A kills of US piloted F-15's during their service. Here's another number for you: 0. As in the number of US 15's lost to enemy planes. Our enemies have had about 3 decades to take one out in air to air combat, NONE have done so. The numbers don't lie.

- and the net result of all these machinations was that the US ended up with a lead by the mid 70's and early 80's that is how it now is. So what?

Europe in particular isn't playing that game anymore. You brought it all upon yourselves, congratulations.

There will never again be a 'sale of the century' like the F104 program (even the superficially similar euro F16 program had so many 'off-sets' it wasn't anything like what the starfighter sale was).

.....and as your aero-corporations merge and down-size and out-source you can applaud the long-term outcomes such short-sighted 'politics' have brought.