f-22 vs 5x f-15s = ... ;))))

Originally posted by Laxpla
Sad how you think you "Brits" are always right.

- we don't, this is called debate, a to and fro of ideas and views......but it's a shame and rather ironic to see friends developing the very flaw we are accused of having as if it were a great virtue.

Because we are the ONLY SUPERPOWER in the WORLD. Thank you.

- Once most of you spoke about being the leaders of a 'free' world with values and ideals that by the virtues inherent within themselves attracted people, willingly, the world over......and now some of you have degenerated to this bombastic idiotic BS.

How sad and how genuinely pathetic.

The only thing is it is nothing like as representative as you would love to imagine.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The F-22 is worth it weight in gold and it is needed cuz the Eagle is getting 3O+ years old. Its funny to me some of the people who say its too expensive don�t even live in the US so what are they worried about? Its my tax money not theirs they should mind their business I don�t mind paying taxes to have a jet like the Raptor. Plus the encounter with 5 F-15, proves it capabilities.

Defeating 5 F-15's is saying a lot, because the F-15 is still currently the world's best fighter.

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Defeating 5 F-15's is saying a lot, because the F-15 is still currently the world's best fighter.

- exactly Hockeyguy567; not to mention the utterly misleading comment that it is "30 yrs old".

Many of the 'eagle fleet' are less than 10yrs old (the 'line' is still open, I believe......so someone obviously was able to present a convincing case that they are not out of date......or maybe the manufacturers are lying to the tax-payer?) and have as up to date systems as it is possible to have.

Sminkey - while I understand and even agree that the Eagle is the best or among the best fighters in the world, it is still a 30+ year old design. Despite when the actual airframe was manufactured, it is still using 30 year old aerodynamics and airframe methods. Now, with most people, they wouldn't trust a 30 year old car design, so why in the hell should we use a 30 year old plane to defend our ountry when we have a much superior design and the funds to replace it?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
why in the hell should we use a 30 year old plane to defend our ountry

- because your car comparison is utterly superficial and totally invalid.

The F 15 still comprehensively and fully meets it's mission requirements and that is, IMO, the only standard anyone need worry about.

when we have a much superior design and the funds to replace it?

- As I've said before I'm not against the F22 per se but it's my view that the US tax-payer is being gouged in an especially gross manner by your 'defence' industry. The 'threat' being imagined is out of all proportion to what is actually out there.

Compounding the problem is that this is being paid for with international borrowing and the effects your governments deficit - like the 'defence' situation internationally - are a concern and a problem for us all.

Sminkeypinkey what part of your opinion on this subject aint worth a fart in a firestorm don't you understand?

Originally posted by mwm1331
Sminkeypinkey what part of your opinion on this subject aint worth a fart in a firestorm don't you understand?

- S'funny, it was worth enough for you to do your little complaining tantrum routine though wasn't it?

What part of 'this is an open public debating board' don't you understand mwm1331?

(are you like 5yrs old or something and going through the 'fascist phase' where you can tolerate no views other than your own?

You are funny.)

[edit on 1-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

The F 15 still comprehensively and fully meets it's mission requirements and that is, IMO, the only standard anyone need worry about.

Again your arrogance is astounding, Let me say this one last time, The American people (or at the very least a VAST majority) support the F-22 program. We want the government to spend money on it. For you to tell us what is and is not necessry for our national security is arrogant. Have whatever opinions you want sminkey but know that they do ont matter, you have no say, you have no vote, you are irrelevant.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Again your arrogance is astounding,

- Now we dealt with this nonsense before, didn't we? Are you a slow learner or something? Do you attend 'special classes'?

It really does sound like it. OK, here we go again -

A contrary personal view and opinion - which is nothing more than what we are talking about - expressed here is not arrogance.

Deal with it.

Let me say this one last time, The American people (or at the very least a VAST majority) support the F-22 program.

- and if you actually looked at my comment you'll see I actually said I was not against the F22 per se. Are you blind? .....and where is your evidence for this "vast majority" by the way?

Or just afflicted with selective 'vision'?

We want the government to spend money on it.

- Yes, some do, but let's tell the truth and do our 'deny ignorance' bit, huh?

More than just a few don't too.

For you to tell us what is and is not necessry for our national security is arrogant.

- No. Clearly you need to look up the definition of the word arrogant and then get half a clue as to when and where that definition would apply.

What is actually arrogant is for you to spew this attacking garbage as if your view were the only one that counted and the only view that existed in the US.

Wrong on both counts.

Have whatever opinions you want sminkey

- That's big and kind of you; how magnanimous of you - like it's in your 'gift' - but I will, don't you be worrying over it.

Free speech, huh? It's a wonderful thing.....you should try it..... and understanding the ideas behind it.

but know that they do ont matter

- I know full well my views don't matter to you, I'll try and get over that, don't you be worrying now! we all have our crosses to bear.

you have no say,

- I do have a little bit of a say though don't I? Here, if no where else, at least.

It's enough of a say for you to have a pop at me on a couple of occassions now - and this latest was long after I thought we'd done our little exchange of view and on this one I wasn't commenting on one of you posts, what's that all about?

What's up? Is even that too much for you to bear?

Oh laughably arrogant one?

you have no vote,

- You're absolutely right; so what? I don't have a vote in the USA, but since when did that exclude folks from expressing their views here? Are you wanting some new rules here or something?

.....or are you ill?

I do have family in the US though and anyway this is an international board is it not? One world, global free speech and all that, hmmm?

(do you only like or agree with any of that stuff if it reinforces your own views or something)

If you have a problem with that I suggest you deal with it and go cry elsewhere if you hear stuff here you don't like now and again. It's a big world out there with lots of contrary ideas and experiences.

(.....and you can be sure that I will be using my vote in the UK so that 'our' involvement with you guys takes full account of my views. It might only be a little but it all counts)

you are irrelevant.

- Oh no, that's told me!


I'll just have to see if I can possibly live with this shatteringly crushing news, oh my, between that awesome reality and the tears running down my legs, what is a guy to do?

You are funny.

......and who's being an arrogant jerk?

(God help America if you are an example of the generation to come.....and if you are the generation current or just past no surprises for the mess you lot are in)

[edit on 2-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

"The F 15 still comprehensively and fully meets it's mission requirements and that is, IMO, the only standard anyone need worry about"


Okay, maby for the British, but America was the best quailty. The USA doe's not want a fair battle. We want to win, and keep winning. So you are saying when we lost to Indias pilots, it still meets the requirements. With the growing threat of the Russian, and Chinese new aircraft. Go on a American forum and see how Americans view this, not a multi-culture jelous forum of America. So please sir, stop being jelous so your "ELITE" EUROFIGHTER can dominate Surely proves birth control dosn't work on the British.

Bluetraxx.com ATV forum talk alot about planes, guess what, we don't complain! We are all American, and guess what, Let me show you the posts.



"Advancing in aviation is the USA Military, now released publically.

"While these conversations, many of them informal, didn't touch on "even one-third of its classified capabilities," according to one pilot, they included the ability to hunt down and destroy cruise missiles well behind enemy lines, the introduction of a new missile that allows the head-on attack and destruction of stealthy enemy missiles, a tailless bomber derivative design, a planned electronic attack capability so powerful that it actually damages enemy electronics, and modifications that would allow the aircraft's electronic package to invade enemy computer networks."


www.aviationnow.com.../05244wna.xml"



"Man, the # the military is comin out with is just unbelevable. The things they do are jsut crazy. They got some smart people doing all that stuff too."

"I just hope these new aircraft aren't running any microsoft product to control the hardware. "

"wow. very cool! "

"That thing looks totally bad ass!!! "

"Are they even gonna put the f22 into service with the f35 coming out?"

"that's awesome! "

"F-22 is strickly air, 35 is ground."

"I love our military! Props to our people who build those things!!! But what pisses me off, is why do we have to release these secrets? Out of curiosity, I like knowing what these jet fighter planes can do but I don't want our enemies knowing by simply clicking on the internet ot turning on the t.v. make them work to find out these secrets by good ol fasion spy vs. spy!!!"

Oh ah I forgot,

"Never forget that the USAF is the best trained,
best equipped, and most lethal air force in the world." - Steve

Steve is a F-16 pilot, he told me that.

'Hey Sminkey, by using the "ignore" button you can make all of the horrid children you want go away.' -Steve said that.

Originally posted by Laxpla
Okay, maby for the British,

- what are you talking about? "The British" don't operate F15's.

but America was the best quailty. The USA doe's not want a fair battle. We want to win, and keep winning.

- You already have that. That is the situation already. What are you talking about?

So you are saying when we lost to Indias pilots, it still meets the requirements.

- Of course. It was a total sham for the gullible IMO (and not mine alone).

The F15's were operating without the usual supporting systems they would have had in a real conflict (AWAC & JTIDS).

With the growing threat of the Russian, and Chinese new aircraft.

- You are kidding me, right? What 'threat'?

A couple of demonstrators that look interesting and fly nicely from countries that cannot afford to place any real numbers in service.....and that's if these interesting prototypes ever actually make it that far?

Go on American forum and see how Americans view this, not a multi-culture jelous forum of America.

- "Jealous" of America?! That's funny, no really, it is. Why should I go anywhere else, this is a free open forum isn't it......and ffs this one is bad enough for blinkered jingoistic rubbish at times!

So please sir, stop being jelous so your "ELITE" EUROFIGHTER can dominate

- You are a teenager with 'issues' aren't you? You seem to love to imagine everyone else "jealous" of you don't you? Guess what, I'm not; at all.

If you are into military planes then yes, eurofighter is a nice one, very capable and fully meets our requirements but you really have to ditch this jealous idea.

Why should 'we' be "jealous" of you? What over anyway? As a Briton I can honestly say I feel no reason to feel in the slightest bit "jealous" of you. If anything given your problems I actually feel sorry for large parts of America. Jealous I can assure you I am not. We don't live our lives thinking about you lot most of the time at all never mind actually think that jealousy nonsense. That's actually a bit weird IMO, that's the arguement of a child.

As for your absurd notion that we want eurofighter to "dominate". Dominate what?

Again, what are you talking about?

'We' will buy them and 'we' might sell a few to a few countries but that will be it. Unlike some, 'we' europeans shall not be so stupid to sell our best tech to any potential future enemies.

Surely proves birth control dosn't work on the British.

- What? That is just incoherent words. Maybe that passes for a joke round your way?

(If you could have calmed down and written it right it might even have been funny, in that really predictable basement level kind of 'fratboy' way.)

Bluetraxx.com ATV forum talk alot about planes, guess what, we don't complain!

We are all American, and guess what, Let me show you the posts.

"Advancing in aviation is the USA Military, now released publically.

"While these conversations, many of them informal, didn't touch on "even one-third of its classified capabilities," according to one pilot, they included the ability to hunt down and destroy cruise missiles well behind enemy lines, the introduction of a new missile that allows the head-on attack and destruction of stealthy enemy missiles, a tailless bomber derivative design, a planned electronic attack capability so powerful that it actually damages enemy electronics, and modifications that would allow the aircraft's electronic package to invade enemy computer networks."


www.aviationnow.com.../05244wna.xml"

"Man, the # the military is comin out with is just unbelevable. The things they do are jsut crazy. They got some smart people doing all that stuff too."

"I just hope these new aircraft aren't running any microsoft product to control the hardware. "

"wow. very cool! "

"That thing looks totally bad ass!!! "

"Are they even gonna put the f22 into service with the f35 coming out?"

"that's awesome! "

"F-22 is strickly air, 35 is ground."

"I love our military! Props to our people who build those things!!! But what pisses me off, is why do we have to release these secrets? Out of curiosity, I like knowing what these jet fighter planes can do but I don't want our enemies knowing by simply clicking on the internet ot turning on the t.v. make them work to find out these secrets by good ol fasion spy vs. spy!!!"

- er, yeah, great.....um awesome even.....what ever floats your boat, um......and so what?

Last time I looked ATS was an international board.

Did any of that really have much of a point?

[edit on 2-9-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by Laxpla
Oh ah I forgot,

"Never forget that the USAF is the best trained,
best equipped, and most lethal air force in the world." - Steve

Steve is a F-16 pilot, he told me that.

- Er, yeah, again what has this to do with anything?

I didn't doubt any of that.

My points have been about the military and their pals in the so-called 'defence' industry leading you guys up the garden path over what you are supposed to actually 'need'

Last I saw in 'defence' you already out-spend the next 25countires combined.

This is a concern for the rest of us as this is a grossly distorting and relatively unproductive way of flushing money down the drain by the multi-billion.....as well as being, in itself, a destabilising thing happening.

Ergo it matters to the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Bravon03
'Hey Sminkey, by using the "ignore" button you can make all of the horrid children you want go away.' -Steve said that.

- Naaaa, much funnier to have them come on and have a go.

IMO there's little funnier than adolescent gung-ho very nationalist bigot-boys who think they know it all and give full reign to their silliness for all to see.

Definately a far cry of the genesis of the U-2 program. It was done specifically because Ike didn't want to be caught in a destabilizing arms race with the Russians, an arms race makes things more unstable rather than more. When you think of how many social programs can be funded with even a handful of billions it beggars belief. Get people educated, give them something to do that gets them out of the ghetto and motivated to be part of society and it pays for itself in the long term. Arms races only benefit the rich and frighten the poor with overstated claims of enemy capabilities.

Heh, must I quote you again.

"The F 15 still comprehensively and fully meets it's mission requirements and that is, IMO, the only standard anyone need worry about"

-Meets the mission's requirements. Yah, it does, but we want the excellent. That is the bare minimum, we want overclocked. You guys got the TORNADO, it meets the requirements. Why do you need the Eurofighter?


Is America your country? No, so why do you care what America does. Do I march in Britan and complain how the Eurofighter is a failure?

Its all about the jealousness. Listen, I cannot lower myself to your level, British are no match for a American. If you guys were all concerned, get rid of the failure EuroFighter with stone age tech.

On second thoughts I can't be bothered to argue with a total turnip.

[edit on 2-9-2004 by waynos]

Originally posted by MPJay
Definately a far cry of the genesis of the U-2 program. It was done specifically because Ike didn't want to be caught in a destabilizing arms race with the Russians, an arms race makes things more unstable rather than more. When you think of how many social programs can be funded with even a handful of billions it beggars belief. Get people educated, give them something to do that gets them out of the ghetto and motivated to be part of society and it pays for itself in the long term. Arms races only benefit the rich and frighten the poor with overstated claims of enemy capabilities.

- Yeah but this debate is between people think waving your "awesome" wang about the place is how to do it.

They either (hopefully) grow up or become your standard Bush/Cheny kind of idiot hypocrites.

Originally posted by Laxpla
Meets the mission's requirements. Yah, it does, but we want the excellent. That is the bare minimum, we want overclocked.

- I know you do....well some of you anyway.

All your friends and well-wishers can do is calmly point out from the sidelines just how much self-harm you are blithly doing yourselves with this unnecessary arm's race that no-one else is joining in with you lot on..

You guys got the TORNADO, it meets the requirements. Why do you need the Eurofighter?

- Well as Waynos has already pointed out both are very different planes from different times with different missions......and even so we are buying the bare minimum. Why? Because by any truely rational assessment we don't really need a big airforce these days. Eurofighter is not a replacement for Tornado and is a very different airplane.

Man if this is the level of your insulated ignorance on a topic you are supposed to be into what the hell does that say about your 'grasp' (don't make me laugh) of current affairs?

Is America your country? No, so why do you care what America does.

- Well it's obvious is it not?

America affects and influences the rest of the world in a major way just like the rest of the world does America.....the trouble is certain blinkered Americans think that this either doesn't matter or only matters in one direction.

This is both stupid and wrong.

Do I march in Britan and complain how the Eurofighter is a failure?

- I have no problem whatsoever in your views on europe. It's what free speech is all about. Fire away.

You think eurofighter a failure?

OK, now tell me why. Seriuosly I'd be interested in how you define this failure and how you arrived at this conclusion.....and since when and how you knew the full ins and outs to be able to make such a judgement.

If you want to debate an issue go ahead. I could care less your nationality. That's the point of this place is it not?

Its all about the jealousness.

- What a cop-out. What a thoroughly lame and purile 'point' to assert.

If that is how you comfort yourself feel free. I really have no interest in such a ridiculous to and fro.

There may be other peoples less priviledged in the world who do feel jealousy but all I can tell you is that I don't.

I get by quite nicely in a free (certainly more 'free' than the present day 'Patriot Act' - such an appropriate 'title' - USA), peaceful (I'll take our levels of crime anyday over yours, not to mention lethal and serious injury gun accidents) and affluent country thanks very much.

Listen, I cannot lower myself to your level,

- I think it's very clear to anyone who cares to look who is occupying the 'low level' here Laxpla. You are very welcome to it. Enjoy. You no doubt do anyway.

British are no match for a American.

- er, in which century are you expecting to plan for a fight between USA and UK?

Grow up.

If you guys were all concerned, get rid of the failure EuroFighter with stone age tech.

- Yeah that'd be about right. Here's the truth of what it's all (really) about, American crying that we didn't buy American.

Dry your eyes and get over it. We designed and bought what we wanted at the price we were prepared to pay and by doing so protected our high tech industries across our continent, not yours, boo hoo hoo.

Get over it. The billions stayed in europe.