Wisconsin Supreme Court Upholds Wisconsin Union Busting Law

reply to post by centurion1211


Nah, I'm speaking from experience, certainly not from fear mongering. Union jobs are what working class America is about. Good benefits for good work. And what is wrong with that, after all? I grew up poor, my stepdad was a WWII and we lived on his measly pension. Certainly wasn't much, that's for sure. I learned early on, at age 15 with my first job waitressing at our small town cafe that it was up to me to make it. I just don't understand how people can begrudge their fellow worker, if they so choose, to join the union of their choice and reap the benefits they earn. No worries, though. I have every confidence that we are, after all, on the same side, right?

Originally posted by neo96
what good comes from union busting?

instead of having 100 overpaid jobs you can have a 1000 jobs

thats what people forget for every 1 union job your putting other people out of work who cant find a job.


go wisconsin!

1000 underpaid jobs...or 100 quality jobs.

reply to post by queenofsheba


please when it comes to unions every single union person i know think they are overworked and underpaid.


spending a decade of my life in a union i have no use for them.

i earned that right to speak it.

reply to post by neo96


I respect your perspective. You chose not to be in it any longer. There are those however, that choose to go into a union career and why should they be disrespected? That's the part I don't understand. No one forces you into the job of your choice, not usually anyway. I don't care if my neighbor is a teacher in the union, or that my neighbor is a nurse in the union....that's the part I don't understand! Why do nonunion workers rail so vehemently against union workers???

reply to post by queenofsheba


because i dont respect their work ethic " i get paid by the hour"

because i dont respect the class warfare that reside in the communistic system where the union first and union only

where the individual counts for nothing

where senority rules and if you dont have it your nothing.

your free to love unions i will never.

and never again will i ever be at their mercy

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by queenofsheba

 

because i dont respect their work ethic " i get paid by the hour"

because i dont respect the class warfare that reside in the communistic system where the union first and union only

where the individual counts for nothing

where senority rules and if you dont have it your nothing.

your free to love unions i will never.

and never again will i ever be at their mercy

Ah, more righteous hubris. Union bashing to the "umpteenth" degree. Public Unions are bad in some ways, as T Rex said there is the Conflict of Interests there. This same conflict occurs for corporations though. Public Unions do pay 20% of their benefits. They also pay taxes as everyone else does. Sounds like a double dip for them.

The issue with the 100 jobs vs 1000 jobs is exactly about pay. I would rather have 100 middle class families secure as opposed to 1000 working poor families who only get by on Food Stamps and Section 8 housing. It amuses me when the "conservatives" say they want to bust unions and get rid of entitlements. I broke down what federal min. wage is for a single person in another thread. I will re-post that here as well. the issue with min. wage jobs is that often you get cut off at 32-38 hours a week to avoid paying the benefits that come with full-time employment. It is more cost effective to use 1000 people at part time than it is to use 500 at full time. If we start running the public sector jobs the same then who will want to clean streets? Teach other peoples bad kids and guard prisoners? These jobs suck even if their lives are not in the direct line of fire as a police officer and firefighters would be.

I am also a retired Army Vet. Sadly I must use the VA so I know what socialized benefits look like, I also know that with my health issues I could not afford health care without it.

It is easy to view things from a high horse when they do not directly affect you. Fact is that all humans either rich or poor should be treated with respect. This is not what the Tea Party (co-opted or not) is doing. They claim to be for smaller government yet pass more legislation at the state levels to conform our lives. To keep the poor poor and the rich with healthy flows of income. They wish to deregulate commerce and tell us who we can and can not marry. They wish to open free markets back to the very oligarchs that use price setting to fraud the American people into paying exorbitant amounts for cheap products and services while shipping the very jobs, that allow us to earn the minimal wages to pay for said goods, abroad. They want to defund the EPA so rivers can once again catch fire and drinking water can be contaminated but they tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. (I am pro-life and have real issues with abortion as a woman killed my unborn child when I pleaded with her not too. I am also for not pressing my moral code on anyone else as it their life to lead and their god or whatever they may believe in that will judge them in the end.)

Everyone knows that we have run away debt and that we must cut spending. If we cut human dignity with it though it was really worth nothing. Either way it seems we may be devolving into a 2nd rate country. There are no easy answers, but one thing is for certain, no matter where you stand: Left or Right, we are systematically losing the vary freedoms each one of us thinks we are fighting each other for. This inane infighting of the American people vs. the American people simply serves as nothing but a distraction while we are all turned into slaves working for and living off the corporate interests.

I believe everyone on ATS is here to fight for what they believe in, stop fighting with each other and lets take back our country of freedom and liberty. We need a rally cry to untie under and a banner to wave. It is time we mobilize against the machine.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do not mean to attack you but could what I am reading be "Welfare envy"? The simple truth is once you reach a certain level of poverty it is often, but not always, near impossible to pull yourself out.

The truth is that being poor and on welfare isn't easy or fun. It is often a vicious cycle of bad stuff happening. Not to mention there is profit made out of keeping poor people poor. When we make a concentrated effort to lessen the wealth gap from the ultra poor and the ultra rich it is not an attack on the rich. The fact is minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. (This is the federal min.)

7.25 * 40 = 290 a week. Most months that is about 1160 a month. Take out your rent; lets be nice and say that its low at 450 a month. Then your food costs. Assuming you are single with no kids that is about 150 a month. Put in electricity water trash heat and other assorted living costs that are necessary call it 150. Car insurance is another 130. Gas to operate said vehicle to go to work to be nice 100 a month.

At the end of the month I have $180 in my pocket. This is assuming you don't get sick have hospital bills any previous debt and nothing bad happens at all. Say for the whole year all I do is work and sleep. I save every penny. At years end I have saved up $2,160.00.
With that I can: Buy 1 crappy on its last leg used SUV.(Used car prices raise with Oil prices.)
I can pay for 1 (maybe) medical issue.
Maybe I can move into a nicer apartment. (You know as long as it doesn't cost more)
Maybe I can take a well deserved vacation.

Oh crap my Mom died. Looks like i have to use that money to pay for a plane ticket and week off work to go home and pay my respects.

I know this may seem like an extreme to some but for the working poor it is everyday life. When I see people complain. 'My tax dollars go to pay for those scum' it makes me sick. I'm glad that isn't my life anymore but for myself and many others that is the only way to live without dealing drugs or committing crimes. Taxes suck. So does being poor.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why is it that the NeoCon (no offense intended with the term just don't know what else to refer to this group as that is more aptly a fitting name) group never wants to respond to my points. I am mostly looking at you Neo. You like to argue against all that isn't what you or other NeoCons believe. Why do you not tackle my previous two posts? I would love to debate the validity and merits of them.

reply to post by LexiconRiot


high horse?

what part of working for a decade in a union do you not get?

they earned my contempt.

THEY EARNED IT.

Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by neo96

 

I respect your perspective. You chose not to be in it any longer. There are those however, that choose to go into a union career and why should they be disrespected? That's the part I don't understand. No one forces you into the job of your choice, not usually anyway. I don't care if my neighbor is a teacher in the union, or that my neighbor is a nurse in the union....that's the part I don't understand! Why do nonunion workers rail so vehemently against union workers???

It's not about disrespecting union members, it all about the economy and it looks like everyone is going to have to give up something to get the economy fixed. I'm a (non-union) state worker looking at pay cuts, furloughs, plus higher medical costs with less benefits.

The way I look at it is that if I and my fellow workers have to put up with all of this, then you and your union buddies are coming along for the ride with us.

You don't deserve any exemption from the economic pain just because you belong to a union.

And what you call "union busting", most other people call giving workers a choice.

Now please (honestly) answer these questions: if union membership is so gloriously wonderful, why do you need state laws to force people to join? Instead, shouldn't unions be swamped with people wanting to join?

Fact is that union membership has been in decline for years. That alone should tell a thinking person all they need to know.

reply to post by centurion1211
well here is some that are working class www.ua.org... back with IBEW www.ibew.org...
and then the Teamsters union www.teamster.org...
Now what do they all have in common?? They are the working class, and with this bill/ law it is just a matter of time before they are made illegal!!! To bad they do not see the writing on the wall, then there are other labor unions that can be added to the list painter's gen laborers, nursing and the like are they not middle class, it all viols down to slave labor,, long hours less pay, no benefits and no one to speak for you, if you complain then there, are others that can work in your place. Get it?????

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by centurion1211

 

well here is some that are working class www.ua.org... back with AEW

So what?

The majority of middle class workers are still NOT union members.

And union membership is still falling.

This could be the start of a good thing.

Before we had all these unions to put up with a man could get a job.

You could go almost anywhere and get $1.00 maybe $1.25 a day to dig a ditch. You didn't need no darnd education. Of course, most people started work at 10 to 12 years old anyway.

If you were lucky and survived to about 65 you could retire and let your kids take care of you for the last 5 to 6 years of life.

Yep, those were the good old days when the skies were darker with coal soot and the lakes and streams were--- well we all remamber Love Canal!!

ok i see your point and yes agree with you for the unions are no longer for the worker tried to join one, local labor union $275 up front that was one weeks pay, then min 25% per pay check for what??? 35% of income when there is a strike??? To me that is just greed and yes the unions should fall, the it will be equal pay min wage across the board what do you think?

reply to post by queenofsheba


Personally I dislike most unions these days. Union workers work less and get paid more than a non union worker. Add to that, in alot of states, you are forced to join the union and pay dues to work in certain places. What if I can not afford the union dues? What if I do not agree with the union? What gives the union the right to force me to join and take my money for a representation that I do not desire? On to the real issue in Wisconsin, its public unions that are being busted, whats wrong with that? Public workers are public servants. If they want to make more money or have better benefits, well, then go work in the private sector where competition for skilled workers with an actual work ethic drives the pay an benefits higher. All public unions do is drive states into financial decline. Why should the teacher that is not allowed to teach because of improper contact with a student be paid 125k a year to sit in a room and read a newspaper, this happens in New York all the time because of the public unions. Why is it anytime you see a state, county or city road crew doing work there are 5 people standing around talking and 2 more actually working? That is a public union hard at work wasting the tax payers money

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by LexiconRiot

 

high horse?

what part of working for a decade in a union do you not get?

they earned my contempt.

THEY EARNED IT.

They earned it. Great argument really gets to the point of my issue anti-union busting.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by neo96

 

I respect your perspective. You chose not to be in it any longer. There are those however, that choose to go into a union career and why should they be disrespected? That's the part I don't understand. No one forces you into the job of your choice, not usually anyway. I don't care if my neighbor is a teacher in the union, or that my neighbor is a nurse in the union....that's the part I don't understand! Why do nonunion workers rail so vehemently against union workers???

It's not about disrespecting union members, it all about the economy and it looks like everyone is going to have to give up something to get the economy fixed. I'm a (non-union) state worker looking at pay cuts, furloughs, plus higher medical costs with less benefits.

The way I look at it is that if I and my fellow workers have to put up with all of this, then you and your union buddies are coming along for the ride with us.

You don't deserve any exemption from the economic pain just because you belong to a union.

And what you call "union busting", most other people call giving workers a choice.

Now please (honestly) answer these questions: if union membership is so gloriously wonderful, why do you need state laws to force people to join? Instead, shouldn't unions be swamped with people wanting to join?

Fact is that union membership has been in decline for years. That alone should tell a thinking person all they need to know.

edit on 6/15/2011 by centurion1211 because: (no reason given)

This alone should explain that Unions are under attack. Wal-mart will close a location that employees attempt to unionize. I have not seen a law forcing membership; if you would be so kind to show me where this is I would gladly respond.

Expecting everyone to give up being middle class to drive wages down while inflation occurs is like saying you think everyone should go on welfare. People need the right to collectively bargain giving one voice against the one voice of the almighty bottom line. It starts with vitriol towards public unions and I doubt it will stop there. This is nothing short of Corporate Communism. Why do you think the Kock brothers are behind union busting? Same reason they want to defund the EPA, to increase the bottom line.

Unions also serve a second purpose no one seems to understand. The un-unionized worker is paid his worth for simply not being a union member. You hold an advantage to employers, you lack of a collective voice. This is valued due to others having that said benefit. Take it away and you can be replaced by someone willing to do your job for less money.

Sometimes we cant see the trees past the forest.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by centurion1211

 

well here is some that are working class www.ua.org... back with AEW

So what?

The majority of middle class workers are still NOT union members.

And union membership is still falling.

You know what other membership is falling, at an even faster rate?

Member of the middle class.

reply to post by LexiconRiot
star for you, you get it, try living in LV Nevada were everything is union, got out fast, the only job i could find there was washing cars for way below min wage, said your tips made up the dif .What tips i was the tunnel man . is that not slave labor saved enough for gas back home, after living in the car for 2 months

reply to post by LexiconRiot


your point was

people are "entitled" to "earning" $100 dollars an hour having 8 weeks of vacation,double time,triple time,holiday pay,funeral leave,

to get paid for nothing most of the time and get overpaid for substandard work or production.

and considering the topic of this thread public unions such as teachers and other things such as taxpayer healthcare provided that covers botox and breast enhancements.

meh

Originally posted by queenofsheba
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

- those that work for let's say, Walmart, who go into county welfare offices to apply for health care/Medicaid benefits cuz Walwart only allows them to work thirty-six hours and therefore doesen't have to offer them health care benefits?

I despise unions but this statement is true. I know people that work at walmart and they only allow them to work 3hrs so that they are still considered "part time" and not eligible for benefits.

But the answer is not unions, the answer is passing a law where "part time employees" are not punished by withholding benefits. Or lowering the "part time status" to like 15 or 20 hrs not 36.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by LexiconRiot

 

your point was

people are "entitled" to "earning" $100 dollars an hour having 8 weeks of vacation,double time,triple time,holiday pay,funeral leave,

to get paid for nothing most of the time and get overpaid for substandard work or production.

and considering the topic of this thread public unions such as teachers and other things such as taxpayer healthcare provided that covers botox and breast enhancements.

meh

Do you ever complete thoughts? You are the least concise person I have had any discourse with. Let me attempt to decrypt what you are saying here.

People shouldn't earn benefits for working nor get paid a fair wage. They shouldn't get paid funeral leave or paid for overtime.
1. Show me where anyone working for the government is $100 an hour. I have seen Federal jobs paid hourly as far up as G-6 make up to $27/per hour. Those jobs are not often allowed overtime.
2. If you are trying to say a salary base position earns $100 an hour if you break it down. Please show the math here, I would guess you didn't account for the 12 hour days that people often work on salary.
3. Please help me understand that vacation and funeral time is a negative. America is the most over worked country in the world. Paid vacations and less hours are the norm in other 1st world countries.

to get paid for nothing most of the time and get overpaid for substandard work or production.

I need two things to prove this statement as more than just anti union vitriol.
1. I want to see a pay slip with 0 hours worked or some academic report showing that unions are able to get paid while not working. (This does not included paid time off.)
2. I want proof of the "substandard" work or production.
I would wager this is simply just repeating talking points from the Kock brother based tea party people.

As far as healthcare goes; there needs to be a universal fix for the issue, blame can not solely be laid at Public union workers feet.