Biker activists shut down Westboro Baptists in Joplin, Missouri

reply to post by OverMan


Actually, there is some truth to that last post of yours.

By and large, people are given far too much credit for "emotional support." We stand up and make show of unity, raise a little money, and then go back to our regular lives.

Things are getting very bad, but not quite so bad that we are willing to give up our conveniences and risk our lives or livelihoods to fight the good fight. I think it is coming, but it is not there yet, and I have to agree that we take far too much credit for far too little action.

reply to post by OverMan


Hey.

You win. You have more experience with Hells Angels and 1%rs than I can muster, eating broken beer bottles and all.

The bikers should all be rounded up and taken to court for chasing off the innocent and peaceful WBC crowd. They have every right in the world to do what they do. Think that'll happen? If not, why not?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by OverMan

 

I like these kind of posts as it allows me an insight into how un/undereducated most people are especially concerning the U.S CONSTITUTION.

Well, my degrees and work experience must have let me down? Please show me in the constitution where it forbids a private citizen from doing anything? As I understand it, the constitution only limits the power of the Federal Government.

1: I was not referring to you or anyone in particular but the collective use of the words "thats unconstitutional" by people here and in the media...
2: actually, 3 times the constitution places restrictions upon "persons" aka private citizens rights yet it is rather unrelated to this topic yet it is your version of subverting my words, thoughts etc etc so I have entertained you this time.
3: the main points being
a: that the CONSTITUTION is not the wellspring from whence thy rights spring...
b: without the SUBVERTIVE UNINCLUSIVE AMBIGUOUS CONstitution we would not have needed a Bill of Rights...
c: people defend or attempt to use in their defense a document that was for the most part intended to be used to enslave them yet they know little or nothing about it and that everything that the ANTI FEDERALISTS feared has now become a reality and only would it be have been made possible via the creation and adoption of this Frankenstein monster of LEGALESE also known as the CONstitution...

You wish to divert my attention momentarily, you got it, you try to mush my words or put your words into my mouth and you will eat them ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Nemo me impune laccessit!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Still seems odd though? That I use Statutes and Rules on behalf of the state everyday for my job, I have a Ron Paul banner in my signature, and somehow I am undereducated when it comes to the rights of a private citizen?
.

What you have been taught as the rights of the citizen is a pale ghost of what was intended and have been subverted increasingly so over time like the erosion of americas topsoil via modern "good ole boy" methods of farming, it seems to produce a good crop, its profitable currently yet nevermind that giant dead zone in the gulf of mexico, kinda type of subversion...

Most statutes, codes and other "rules" were never agreed to by the people, were and are never put to a vote and are thus not democratic in any way and also shall I say are very UN-BILL OF RIGHTS-ISH and furthermore are Unlawful according to Common Law which was the guidestone in the creation of the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and each states Constitution and subsequent Bill of Rights.

Sure its "legal" because it supports the status quo who is upported by the bar which supports all Barristers and Judges also known as ADMINISTRATORS OF STATUTES AND CODES who define law via precedence which has been trained like a grape vine to only grow where it most benefits its benefactors.

You could be the US attorney general as that would only further prove my point.

So you like mr Paul, so did I until I read his book END THE FED and truly gave it all some thought.
The realization that We the people... are the people we have been waiting for and not some MESSIAH dawns upon me daily...

He will either accomplish nothing via gridlock in the senate and/or congress or he will end up like JFK.
If he wins then THEY selected him = DIEBOLD ESS and all ATSers should be ashamed if they are not aware DIEBOLD ESS VOTER FRAUD = you have no vote = the republic is dead.

Originally posted by getreadyalready


Oh well, I defer to your expertise. Please educate us and show us where the bikers and truckers violated the Constitution, and which clause or amendment authorizes us to put a stop to these horrendous outlaws that are insistent upon defending their own communities against provacateurs.

The Bill of rights would not exist if not for the existence of the CONstitution and thus they are inseperable and will be seen as inseperable until both cease to exist thus when people say "thats unconstitutional" they really mean "thats against the bill of rights" or "thats against my right as acknowledged in the bill of rights".

And... don't you know this? yes, you must thus why ask me to educate you on something that does not exist unless that is what you do best = ask stupid questions...

Okay, its easy, on a "LEGAL" level one group petitioned to assemble while the other did so without informing the authorities which PETITIONING is designed to protect both the protestors and any protestees from becoming violent aka PUBLIC SAFETY.

Secondly, a right is not a right if it infringes upon the rights of others thus their right to assemble and speak should be supported not only by the local people and government, police who they dutifully INFORMED and gained PERSMISSION FROM etc etc but also by the bikers themselves yet these bikers chose to drown out a lawful and even a "legal" protest with their own unlawful and "illegal" form of protest and thus we rae back to square one... it is not a right if it infringes upon the rights of others....period.

I do not condone nor endorse the need to petitition to assemble nor to speak yet I am aware of the hows and whys as it concerns the act, local population, the need for public safety, the volatility of the situation etc etc...

As I have said and will continue to say, these church people would hate me as much if not more then all the dead and suffering who they like to bother yet the urge to defend their right to speak is primal, comes from deep within and will not be bred out as it appears to have been bred out of many of my so called peerage.

and a good day to you sir!

reply to post by OverMan

yet the urge to defend their right to speak is primal, comes from deep within and will not be bred out as it appears to have been bred out of many of my so called peerage.

You somewhat confound me?

You make some good points, at times bordering on the "freeman" or "sovereign" arguments, but still intriguing. But then you say that you have a primal urge from deep within to defend the right to speak. Ok, but what about the primal urge to protect your friends and neighbors and loved ones from additional hurt?

See primal urges come from deep-seeded instincts. Those instincts are not usually conducive to civilized society. Primal urges are more animalistic and natural. A primal instinct would be to rip the throat out of someone that stands and screams that your loved one is going to rot in hell.

You seem to have gotten it backwards? Your primal instincts have indeed been bred out of you and your peerage. You are so indoctrinated that you now believe that a piece of paper defining one view of civility is more important than your own flesh and blood? I love the Constitution, and I love this country, but I love my friends and family more! I mentioned earlier that the framers of our constitution would have been the first to stand up for their personal honor and challenge these WBC idiots to a mortal duel! That is a primal urge, that is the urge that lives in me and others.

I can appreciate your steadfast view, and I can even admit to flaws in my own personality. For me, if I was grieving over a loved one, and some idiot drove cross country to come scream insults at me, I would sleep better at night knowing that I helped arrange a meeting between him and his beloved maker. I may not be civilized, but I know the difference between my primal urges and my indoctrination. You seem to have gotten them confused?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by OverMan

 

Actually, there is some truth to that last post of yours.

By and large, people are given far too much credit for "emotional support." We stand up and make show of unity, raise a little money, and then go back to our regular lives.

Things are getting very bad, but not quite so bad that we are willing to give up our conveniences and risk our lives or livelihoods to fight the good fight. I think it is coming, but it is not there yet, and I have to agree that we take far too much credit for far too little action.

edit on 2-6-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

"Some" truth? my friend, please try to be perfectly honest as my comments are chocked full of this stuff you refer to as truth.

The reason being is that I am not trying to offend nor NOT OFFEND anyone...

Of course, Charities by and large are riddled with fraud and incompetence if not filling the aganda of nefarious intent whilst cloaked in sheepskin.
From The gates foundation to "locks for love"... dig deep into that cess pool and tell us what you find please.

Of course, all they do is "rah rah root root!" and then send their sons and daughters off to kill and die because there are simply no better options for them...so sad and then they get all patriotic with their bumper stickers etc etc and maybe get alittle emotional at the playing of the national anthem quickly followed by a reassuring "go USA" or "USA #1" chant as they do the wave...

Its sickening to me just like all the flag waving and islamophobia post 9/11.

reply to post by OverMan


Well, that is exactly why I said "some" truth.

I am a Mason and a Shriner, and 100% of all of our fundraising passes through to the named charities. Our operating budgets come from our dues and our own private donations to the fraternities. Any and all public donations are passed through 100%.

I also ride with a couple of groups like the Patriot Guard, and I attend the National Guard's Toys 4 Tots runs every Christmas season. Those "biker" events are very popular and 100% of the funds and merchandise pass directly through to the intended recipients.

I agree that major fundraising corporations have a lot of corruption, but we are talking about bikers here, and those groups probably have the least amount of corruption when it comes to their charitable endeavors. (Not talking about the outlaws and their criminal enterprise, just talking about the public groups and rides, etc.)

reply to post by masqua


Now yer simply being silly

For several years I was raised in the presence of many "bikers" but they did not ride honda's, were terribly anti war anti establishment etc etc because they lost many of their friends in Vietnam and came to realize it as the mass manipulation that it was and were so full of anger and pain which they tried to satiate by any and all means possible...via drugs which includes large amounts of the poison and drug also known as alcohol

Give it time, you will come to understand and enjoy my far superior and well thought out position, heck I will even give you a hand up if that is all you require.

Consistency is a prime objective right? thus we must support the rights of others even when we disagree with their position.

The LEO's should have removed the bikers and allowed the petitioned scheduled protest to occur.
The bikers would be allowed to counter protest in another area at the same time or at another time to maintain public safety and the rights of both groups.

It is not that hard and you do not have to resort to ad hom or outrageous illogical conclusions to try and contain my position, to corn hole, to corner, to degrade and/or otherwise attempt to make me appear as something that I am not.

Is it that hard to believe that real americans would come here and defend the rights of those who they most definately do not agree with, with not only the full understanding of the initial essence of these rights but also the as they are currently and very narrowly defined as presently?

If so, now begins the period of the suspension of your disbelief as liberty calls...
Nay! liberty beckons, ringing like a bell in the minds of those who understand and shining like a bright star helping to enlighten the steps of those brave enough to believe we can once again reach a high level of freedom and independence, in this lifetime, without a messiah... amen

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by OverMan

 

Well, that is exactly why I said "some" truth.

I am a Mason and a Shriner, and 100% of all of our fundraising passes through to the named charities. Our operating budgets come from our dues and our own private donations to the fraternities. Any and all public donations are passed through 100%.

I also ride with a couple of groups like the Patriot Guard, and I attend the National Guard's Toys 4 Tots runs every Christmas season. Those "biker" events are very popular and 100% of the funds and merchandise pass directly through to the intended recipients.

I agree that major fundraising corporations have a lot of corruption, but we are talking about bikers here, and those groups probably have the least amount of corruption when it comes to their charitable endeavors. (Not talking about the outlaws and their criminal enterprise, just talking about the public groups and rides, etc.)

I agree that some charities are 100% going to the needy yet that the majority of charities are criminal.

Yet the people who are trying to help/assist and otherwise "support" our troops would serve the troops better by protesting war instead yet they do not protest war they embrace the Nationalism surrounding it and thus are no better then the Fascists who led us into these wars... willing accomplices as few if any of them can be so ignorant to have not noticed the trail of unjust wars from VIETNAM to Afghanistan which have led to so much death and destruction...

Little do they know that every gallon of gas they use simply reinforces the carter doctrine and thus endless war.
Is that another bit of truth that you would like to degrade into "some" truth?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Primal was the wrong word as this "urge" this "desire" is not only "gutteral" but also assisted by a long series of learning and then critical thinking which most lack and thus primal was indeed the wrong word or was the wrong word when left alone, unassisted by other good words like "critical" and "thinking" which I failed to mention. My bad...

No again, sorry and rather apparently you are twisting my words as I pointed out directly that the CONSTITUTION was NOT the wellspring from whence our rights originate but rather a subversion of the SOVEREIGN.

If you really want to know how bad it is??? really?
Common law comes from two sources mainly, the bible and tha magna carta.
The Magna Carta was a ploy to unseat a king, a joke at best, signed but quickly recanted in the presence of a nefarious Pope.

The bible, another story for another day yet imho on level with the deception presented via the magna carta.

A joke, that is how most of these great ideas aka our rights originated, sadly.
Yes, nothing but a piece of paper as our actions define us.

and I will now take you one more step down into the abyss before returning to my real life



debunk the info presented in the video...please.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
So, you see, it is less about my disagreeing with your position on this subject then your dislike of my disagreeing with your position on this subject...

Mods are like that as they get use to winning alot and quickly forget the bitter taste of defeat.

reply to post by OverMan


LOL! I am going to work backwards on my reply.

So, you see, it is less about my disagreeing with your position on this subject then your dislike of my disagreeing with your position on this subject...

Mods are like that as they get use to winning alot and quickly forget the bitter taste of defeat.

Wrong and wrong, but appreciated. You are not disagreeing with me as much as you would like to take credit for. In fact, our views are quite similar, except you seem to be an idealist on the matter, while I am more of a realist. I would love nothing more than stopping all the wars, corruption, eroding of personal rights, etc., etc. I entirely agree with your stance on Vietnam, and Afghanistan, but so long as we are over there, I prefer to win.

Which brings me to the second part. I do like to win, but I did not get to my station in life (Mod or any other) through my triumphs. I got here through my defeats!! I have certainly suffered 10x more defeats than triumphs, and I have started back from square 1 more times than I can count. It would take another whole thread to recap my many defeats in life, but suffice to say, that my experiences were well-earned, and I wear most of those experiences in plain view from scars, to tattoos, to gray hairs! We can swap stories anytime, I enjoy it, and I'll never run out, LOL!

No again, sorry and rather apparently you are twisting my words as I pointed out directly that the CONSTITUTION was NOT the wellspring from whence our rights originate but rather a subversion of the SOVEREIGN.

This and the other stuff that went with it was somewhat of a deflection on your part. I did mention your stance on "sovereigns" and I am a supporter of the position. I have a post somewhere in the halls of ATS regarding a meeting I attended at the Florida Bar where the sovereign and freeman argument was being discussed and taken seriously. It is a decent thorn in the side of the established legal system. I'm sure they will eventually legislate themselves out of the corner they are painted into, but for now, I support the good fight.

BUT..... I disagree that any of our rights spring from any legal document. I believe along the lines of "natural law." I believe my rights are "self-evident" and I appreciate the Declaration pointing that out, and all of those "common laws" are great for civilizations and religions, but as an individual, I don't need them. If you truly believe as a freeman, or as a sovereign, then you already know right from wrong in your own eyes. You already have a moral code that you live by, and if you are anything like me, your moral code takes precedence over the laws of the land. I do my best to follow the law, but when the law interferes with what I believe is right or wrong, then I follow my own code despite the consequences. In some definitions, that makes me a sociopath, but I have done pretty well for myself and avoided any major confrontations with the law. I have to admit, it gets harder and harder, day by day, as the laws seem to make less and less sense, but for now I am getting along fine.

Little do they know that every gallon of gas they use simply reinforces the carter doctrine and thus endless war.
Is that another bit of truth that you would like to degrade into "some" truth?

Nope. I entirely agree, but tell us what you are doing to combat it?

As for me, I have converted to solar water heat for the house and pool. (Homemade system.) I am on well water, and a septic system, with a gray water unit. I have stopped the family from buying all things disposable, and we make every effort to buy high quality merchandise that will last and last. We have stopped buying cheap shoes, or cheap furniture, or cheap utensils, and we buy things with the mindset of keeping them forever, repairing them as needed, and passing them down to the next generation. I ride my motorcycle 90% of the time to save gas. I have a timed sprinkler set up for my house roof for the hottest part of the day to cut down electric consumption. I am slowly converting all electrical items in my home to higher efficiency or getting rid of them completely. I have cut my consumption by about 40% in 2 years, and if I get it just a little lower, I will convert to 100% solar, and I will be entirely off-grid.

There are a couple of books that came out long before the "green" movement, and they were intended more to help people amass wealth, but the lessons also support conservation of resources instead of the consumption we have gotten indoctrinated for.

Read The Millionaire Next Door and watch a great little video about our engineered consumptionism Here
*
*
See, we are not so far apart in our beliefs, you are just more of an idealist, while I prefer it down here in the nitty gritty!!

This drifted a little off-topic, but it goes to show that "outlaws" may have a higher moral code than the average citizen, and it goes to show that two people can share the same views and strongly disagree on an issue. It is an odd conundrum. I support the truckers and bikers for the exact same reasons that you oppose them. How the hell do we ever accomplish anything as human beings?

Originally posted by OverMan
reply to post by masqua

 

Now yer simply being silly

Yes, I'm Mr. Silly

For several years I was raised in the presence of many "bikers" but they did not ride honda's, were terribly anti war anti establishment etc etc because they lost many of their friends in Vietnam and came to realize it as the mass manipulation that it was and were so full of anger and pain which they tried to satiate by any and all means possible...via drugs which includes large amounts of the poison and drug also known as alcohol

I see. Some of the bikers I knew rode blue Vespa's and little red Honda 90's. They hung around with hippies and wore flowers in their hair even when they pulled wheelies on Main Street while police officers applauded their antics. The only young Americans we saw regularly were those who crossed the border to evade the draft. They wore flowers in their hair too.

The ones who drank a lot were driving hot Cameros and SuperBees, going to sock hops wearing tight black jeans and white T-shirts with cigarette packages tucked into the left sleeve. Their shoes were black and pointy and the all wore duck-tail haircuts. We avoided them and they avoided us.

Canadians, for the most part, didn't get into the Viet Nam war. Some Native American Canadians did, but then they always were the ones to get into any war they could because they like to keep sharp... you know?

Give it time, you will come to understand and enjoy my far superior and well thought out position, heck I will even give you a hand up if that is all you require.

Maybe I will. It certainly seems you've MUCH more experience with the seedier side of life. Wouldn't that mean a hand 'down', though?

Consistency is a prime objective right? thus we must support the rights of others even when we disagree with their position.

So what happens if we both agree that the WBC has the right to go and do their thing? There could be circumstances where the WBC would be appreciated by me... like a Mafia boss or pedophile funeral .

The LEO's should have removed the bikers and allowed the petitioned scheduled protest to occur.

Don't forget the good citizens of Joplin. The crowd running the WBC bunch off were not ALL bikers. Maybe only the grieving families of those who died should have been allowed to stay at the memorial and riot police could have protected the WBC'ers from angry survivors with tear gas and truncheons.

The bikers would be allowed to counter protest in another area at the same time or at another time to maintain public safety and the rights of both groups.

Yes. You're right. No-one on a motorcycle should have been allowed within 50 miles of Joplin. Road blocks, helicoptors, quads and mounted police all around should make that happen.

It is not that hard and you do not have to resort to ad hom or outrageous illogical conclusions to try and contain my position, to corn hole, to corner, to degrade and/or otherwise attempt to make me appear as something that I am not.

What, exactly, are you then? And what does it mean to 'corn hole' if I may ask. I'd look it up in the Urban Dictionary but I think you already know, don't you?

Is it that hard to believe that real americans would come here and defend the rights of those who they most definately do not agree with, with not only the full understanding of the initial essence of these rights but also the as they are currently and very narrowly defined as presently?

Well... when it comes to real Americans, Sitting Bull comes to mind. The rest are mostly Europeans who either came over on the Mayflower or later. Besides, how can a Canadian even pretend to know what standards real Americans like yourself hold dear?

If so, now begins the period of the suspension of your disbelief as liberty calls...
Nay! liberty beckons, ringing like a bell in the minds of those who understand and shining like a bright star helping to enlighten the steps of those brave enough to believe we can once again reach a high level of freedom and independence, in this lifetime, without a messiah... amen

You silver tongued real American, you! How can I withstand such flowery atheism?

Hope you liked Mr. Silly.

To the OP

if you want freedom you need to let such people use thier right to speak, even if you and i do not like them.

as for the bikers - seems like that town have thier own "Sam Crow"

I'm a little late here, and probably not needed, but that's never stopped me before.

I get the distinct impression that a number of the folks who are arguing here have little or no experience with the people they are condemning, much less real experience or ability to interpret life. No, not all bikers are good guys. But then, not all non-bikers are good guys. Not all people who are "bound" by a certain law are going to understand it, or, even if they do, are going to follow it. That's just human beings. That's why they build jails. And being able to sit behind a keyboard and berate the people involved, and crying and bragging about a self-perceived moral, ethical, and/or intellectual superiority doesn't make it so, either.

Being a supporter of the Patriot Guard, the Legion Riders, the American Legion, and a few other patriotic organizations, as well as a veteran of the Viet Nam War... That I VOLUNTEERED for... I tend to laugh at and disregard people who wrap themselves in cloaks of self righteousness and think that, if not for them, our civilization would still be in the caves, or have evolved into a world wide Nazi, or Socialist/Liberal civilization. You write and/or falsely embolden yourself so that you can, basically, attempt to create your own version of "an" reality, put it forth,and then lambast and denigrate all who do not see it exactly as you do.

The thing that bothers me is the people who display themselves that way (morally, ethically and/or intellectually superior) toward the rest of the common folk, up to and including many of the moderators, are probably scared, and very insecure themselves.

If you are, in reality, that good, you don't have to try and convince the rest of us. The bright and good people are pretty much obvious to us lesser mortals. Those of you who cry that you would not live in a "thus and such" type of society or culture, don't probably do very well here at any rate. You obviously aren't doing too terribly well in the one you are living in, otherwise you wouldn't be so full of derision, fear, and lack of class, or consideration for your fellow man.

The people here who feel as if they have to put down those people who write a blank check to our country don't obviously have care or consideration for anyone other than themselves. There are a lot of us who have gone in service to our country (not the guys in charge at the time)... But we saw it as a necessity so that people like you, who probably haven't gotten off your butts for anything other than yourselves, can continue to sit on your butts and criticize the rest of us.


I suspect, seriously, that when the smoke settles on the Joplin Debacle, we will find that the Patriot Guard did not start anything. If any ass kicking happened, it wasn't them. I suspect it began as a result of the Westboro Trolls pushing just a liiiiittttlle toooo hard on those lesser mortals/people/native Missourians who were already pushed to the edge of their abilities to deal with stress, death, destruction and fear. That reality is a far cry from a nice safe environment, in which you can sit in front of your keyboard and pompously malign, traduce, and vilify people who you rather perversely, deem to be less than you.

Folks like you cause folks like me, who by the way, won't respond to any of your "superiority" insults, simply shake my head and worry about the future of the world.

Nations go to war over differences in opinion. Why would the people not have the same right?

Go ahead and practice free speech. Just don't think there won't be any consequences.

Westboro does have the right to say what they want and protest.... Although I do not agree with what they protest...

Don't the bikers also have the right to protest the protesters?

I know many a biker (in fact I married into a biker family) and all and all they are just people like everyone else. I personally believe that they have the right to protest actions they deem questionable even if it is another protest.

Westboro does have the right to say what they want and protest.... Although I do not agree with what they protest...

Don't the bikers also have the right to protest the protesters?

I know many a biker (in fact I married into a biker family) and all and all they are just people like everyone else. I personally believe that they have the right to protest actions they deem questionable even if it is another protest.

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*I just realized how old this thread was! lol sorry







I will say this:
I've known Baptists all my life, and I have never heard of, or known of any of them doing stuff like this. IMO, I think this 'group' hi-jacked a religion to spread their hate. They're not Baptists, IMO.

That being said, and I will add a disclaimer that I think this group is complete and utter hate mongering idiots, they are entitled to their free speech the same as EVERY AMERICAN, no matter how repulsive and dumb it is.

They were showing up at every mine disaster here where I live and doing these things. I think a bunch of them got beaten pretty badly. There's just some things that you shouldn't do. They're highly disrespectful and have no common decency. Unfortunately for all of us, there's people like this out there who live to make other people unhappy.

WBC protests, events simply done to garner attention for themselves, are an abhorence, but that doesn't mean that they should be stopped from expressing anything.

We are a Constitutional republic, the minority are afforded the same rights as the majority. We're not a democracy, AKA mob rules.

Let them protest, it is our right as Americans.

The best "revenge" on the WBC is actually protesting their church. Bet they'd just love some "color" showing up to their bible thumping Sunday sermons!

Derek