I would love to see proof of a ghost. We need science. Not Shamans.

reply to post by Butterbone


Thanks for the very straight answer, appreciated.

Your take on snake oil is valid to you, please accept that you MAY be wrong, sometimes, about some things, ok?

Like i said, your sensors look great, and while i guess you may even have a certain amount of success in recording anomalies, they will never amount to scientific evidence of anything, so good luck with that.

You won't have achieve your narrow scientific goals, that's a promise. Your premises, assumptions, methods and attitudes are wrong. Reconsider. But as per the analagy above you're playing in a chemistry lab, with chemicals that you are blindly refusing to contemplate. It can only end badly.

peace

I think you would still need someone who can control ghost ( or whatever the word is ) so it can be more easy to measure even with less equipment. This way can minimize the risk you might encounter about other world. Mostly if you wanna have valid prove, might need ghost that reacting ( or in action maybe )and strong enough.

Hard thing to find person like this cuz they might not willing to do it. But if you search them widely, you might find someone. Here in indonesia you can still find people like that, but not sure if mostly would like to make documentation of it. But some tv show in here before ask people like this too with a good result.

If in any chance you come to here, you might wanna go to this town, sumedang in west java province. There is a man, a mystical puppet master that really friendly and often had guest from everywhere ( in here ) just for chat or learn something and usually show something that not make sense if they ask politely with no charge at all. He usually show some of his ability if in a good mood and might let you in to one of his room to meet "ghost" that would react strong enough to your need. And if you are lucky enough, he will demonstrate things flying around or jump ( mostly traditional weapons like keris ) or even watch his puppet that can move its own.

But might dont have to go this far and you will find someone that close enough with your home. Basically i like the idea about prove it with science cuz i always believe it explainable with science. Just need the right way and the right people to do it. Hope i can read more about what you will do in the future.

Simply due to the fact that ghosts are spirits, and are composed of our leftover electromagnetic energy, you can detect them using EMF detectors.

I feel that if you built a basic radio and studied the concept of electromagnetism and how radio waves transcends the atmosphere ionically, ghosts and their electromagnetic nature would make more sense to you.


Start by building a basic crystal radio. It uses no batteries but only the power from the radio station signal which the crystal converts from the radio frequency spectrum to the audible spectrum.

Plain and Simple.

Congrats on a genuinely informative thread !!

An experience I had before I was in my teens contributed to my passion for all things under the paranormal umbrella, yet because of the taboo surrounding the subject, any serious avowal of belief was not an option if I wanted to be considered "normal". With age, intensive personal research and development of critical thinking skills, I learned to separate manure from myth, lore from legend, and science from shinola. My acquired skepticism idid not lessen my interest, but rather whetted it for something more substantial.

Thanks to the popularity of the many shows now addressing the subject, the taboo has lessened and a few years ago, I along with four other (dare I say) "believers" formed a private non-profit paranormal research group. We've been asked to look into a number of unexplained events at private homes and businesses. We also teach a Ghost Hunting 101 class at three different local community colleges. (Response is great.) We also gear up and sleuth around cemetaries and other places posited as being haunted. So far I've not encountered any activity that I could be 100% confident in declaring it of paranormal origin. I've had a few unexplainable things occur that may have been but it could have been as easily from coincidence or a cause that could easily explained by someone better versed in the sciences than I.

One of the team is a "sensative" and frequently her faith in her abilities and my skepticism clash. The " I feel" or the "I'm getting/hearing a name/voice etc." may be perfectly valid for her, but it smacks too much of shamanism/charlantanism for my taste, not to mention being wholly subjective and largely unverifiable. The few "hits" she's come up with that I have been able to confirm, I contribute to luck, coincidence or just her being a good "cold reader". People give away an incredible amount of information without even being aware of doing so, and I personally believe that she's picking that info up without her being aware of what's she's doing.

As the case manager I take pains to keep any and all pertinent information to myself until after we've done our thing to avoid tainting her impressions, but that still isn't any guarantee her senses are more finely tuned to a realm the rest of us mundanes are shuttered away from. Conversely, the fact that I can't percieve something with my limited senses or instruments doesn't mean that the essences of the departed aren't galloping about having a grand old time on the other side with an occasional pop-in over here. I didn't mean to go so off topic, but just wanted to share a little background on where my beliefs are centered with regard to "proof". If it can be measured, quantified and catalogued YEAH, GREAT, but if it can't, that doesn't make it's existance any less real. Merely because I've never seen a camel spider doesn't mean they don't scrabble around somewhere !

I think the theoretical instrumentation array you've worked up is superb. I'd give my eye teeth to be able to afford an extensive set-up like it...BTW the graphics did a world of good in helping me conceptualize the system ! As for other measureable quantities, two instruments my group uses frequently are carbon monoxide detectors (helps rule out a potential source that may cause hallucinations) and vibration sensors. While ours are hardware store standards, the more expensive models can be calibrated to detect flea flatuence !

The CM detector could likely be incorporated into the air monitor array. The vibratory sensors could be a key element to detecting an anomaly without physical mass, temperature or visible substance, especially in a sealed room. We also utilize motion sensors, yet with the laser grid, those as a necessity are pretty much negated. I've also read of others who use geiger counters on the theory that the "spirit" may be composed of radioactive elements, but I personally think this rather far-fetched. Logic would dictate if an entity was radioactive and a recurrent phenomenon, then those repeatedly exposed would eventually display diagnosable symptoms. Further after the Fukishima debacle, how would one know if the readings were "spiritual" in origin or active fallout?

Anyhow, sorry for the long post, but if I think of anything else that might be worthy of contribution, I'll chime in.

ETA: on a side note, I've taken my kids on cemetery hunts before, though for the sake of privacy and professionalism they do not attend actual case investigations. No harm, no foul IMO. According to some of the more vehement posters, perhaps we were lucky and I'll accede to their beliefs while maintaining my own. We could have been in as much danger as sitting around a campground telling ghost stories and being struck by a meteor. That doesn't mean that something engendered by paranormal phenomena caused it. Sort of like the adage, "You are what you eat." Well, you are what you believe. So long as you felt it safe and age appropriate, then enjoy the time with your kids. I seriously doubt any permanent harm resulted, but on the outside chance they turn out irretreivably warped, the bright side is that they'll chase ghosts, get a show on SyFy or the Travel Channel, sell some books, make a million bucks and never have to work for Roto-Rooter !!

Thanks Ladyjem.

I think the carbon monoxide detector could be a seperate diagnostic tool, that gets run before the set up of the stable sensor array.
There are pressure pads on the floor, and the laser array which both would kind of negate the use of a vibration sensor. Plus there is the reality that the package sensor arrays are suspended on cables so a vibration sensor could be too easily influenced in that set up.

Both great ideas and I will add the carbon dioxide detector to the "baseline" sensor sweep.

Ultimately the originating sweep should use EMF detectors looking for bad wiring or em fields that are easily diagnosed and corrected. Then different gas detectors, because like you said, people could just be hallucinating due to noxious gas emissions inside the structure. A pest or vermin investigation should also be done to find out if any fauna is living inside the structure other than people. If there is a nest of racoons or marmets or something in the walls or subfloor and attic, you could end up with all kinds of strange sounds and so on.


That is a great addition to the Approach Ladyjem and I think you. Now we have our research in 3 stages.

Initial investigation covers one time tests and establishing of a baseline for incidental hazards that could cause people to think they are seenig or hearing things.
You know something else is to question people about the dates and times of these "anomolies". Noone ever asks for that information. Maybe the anomolies coincide with dates, or special phases of the moon, or times of year. That is all information that is very very basic, in scientific observation, and No One ever asks for it.

Second Stage is to set up the actual sensor array and measure for an extended period of time.

Third stage is to check results and measurements and make determination whether more time is needed and the determine how to proceed with repeating stage 2.

You are the scientific instrument and you are the scientist as well. All these sensors and gadgets are a waste of money. The occult and mystical sciences have been studying this topic for hundreds of years. if you want to believe that is mumbo jumbo and invalidate it that's fine but doing so immediately invalidates your research and shows that you do not want to put in the actual spiritual effort to "see ghosts" or "other realms."

If you're not willing to train your instrument to access the spirit realm then you will not find proof. Perhaps that will change someday as technologies advance but the science of spirit is unlikely to be found with a machine as machines do not have spirit, you do however so it is best to learn the arcane mysteries and occult methods. Just because you may not understand them or perceive them to be foolish does not mean that they are worthless.

It's amazing how people want proof but mock a "shaman's" first hand account of these experiences, whenever I read this mockery I just have to shake my head because it shows how little the "scientist" is willing to investigate.

I find it so amusing watching people take photos of dark stairwells and video taping abandoned houses at night - The spirit world does not function that way, and the majority of it does not leave physical evidence behind for anyone to make a quick buck from.

We live in a world of energy and atomic structure, we perceive only a tiny fragment of it with our limited perceptions, even our machines see but a fraction more then we are able to, compared to the entire spectrum of existence and experience.

The manner in which we the living progress through and interact within this world is vastly different from the departed and I'm sorry to say that humanity's play toy of scientific fact and reasoning is far too limiting to explain something as infinite in nature as the spirit world.

Once you've been there, you will understand, but until that day comes, Its very much like the drop of water in the sky, what does it know of the ocean?


-GM

regarding ur title
no,no u dont u really dont

I still do. I really do.

I haven't added anything because I haven't come across any new information about what other aspects of mass can be measured.

Time issues, physical matter, and even gasses. I still think there is something to the idea of measuring gravity in minute detail.

But I don't know if you can create a "net" of gravimetric sensors, or even if gravity sensors can measure differences in a scale that is understandable in this context. But I'll keep reading.

Something else that just keeps driving me mad is the inability to visualize electromagnetic field data.
But I did find some more interesting information about visualizing radio waves, which are in the same vein. So I'm going to keep reading up on that. It was some japanese kids who made an art installation that reads wifi signals and converts them into color bits and displays them on a screen. So their art installation scans the gallery and "paints" a picture of the wifi signals coming from peoples phones and they found it also picked up EM signals from pacemakers and other minor electronics. If something like this could be built and tuned for tiny tiny discrepancies, it could really be some new form of visualization that may show us "other" things.

I haven't given up. Just been working on other things.

Oh well, my father says he sees a ghost in the door way (Door ways represent gate ways to the other world), well all he sees is a outline, nothing interesting.

reply to post by Butterbone


Science is over-rated and boooring! I totally hate science.....

I love your post on this.

The wi-fi signals as art is an interesting idea, I found a link to share with others on this.

www.theurbanshogun.com...

I'd like to also add that filming/imaging in sound/frequency be considered for adding to your list of considerations.

If everything in the universe vibrates at a unique frequency, then whatever interacts within our domain visible or not would generate a unique signature, including spirits.

In having researched this already and reading your posts and the replies, I wonder that the chilling effect which is felt upon reported spirit intrusions and presence might be one of our bodies perception of another frequency "body/field" comingling within our own "body/field's" frequency. Not that the ambient temperature does not actually drop in certain instances, but certainly if the temperature is not dropping, and a person still "feels" a chill, then something else must be causing us to "feel as though" the temperature is dropping.

I know that some people report that when they are in the presence of high EMF fields, that they can "feel" the "tingling" sensation. It is pretty scary to see florescent tubes without power sources, lighting up beneath high voltage power lines.

If heat and EMF can be worked to produce a visible result, then "sound" should be able to be seen as well, since this is just another energy signature. It would be best to have a portable camera to do this with of course, so that all the usual "haunts" so to speak could be checked out. Perhaps a damping field could also be generated in order to effectively perform a window frequency search for spirts and the such, something which would eliminate the lower frequencies first, sort of a white noise mask.

Additionally; if spirits are electro-magnetic, then perhaps something exists which would increase or ramp up the spirit’s electrical signature upon arrival, or transit path.

1) Suspending a networked grid of "monitored" transformers/capacitors at various levels. Perhaps the capacitors could be independent units feeding very low voltage LEDs (you would then "visually monitor" these at a safe standoff distance with you night vision equipment), or simply monitor the grid (unit voltage levels) with some simple network management software.

2) Some type of monitored static electricity rod; set into a grid. Keep in mind…in all the legends, spirits do not come around iron works, perhaps they know that they can be grounded or conducted. Use of iron was a traditional method of keeping spirits away from you. Using rubber poles with a monitored circuit should work.

3) Using a reverse variation for some of Tesla's inventions for wireless power transmission (Disturbed charge of ground and air method). The idea is to create a spirit friendly sensor (don't run them off/scare them with lights, at least in the human visible range).

4) Running some monitored "Air Energy Circuits": www.youtube.com... Monitor these for increasing and decreasing voltages. Each of these monitors would achieve a baseline voltage on a per unit basis and the monitoring software would "zero out" the baseline. When spirits cross near these sensors then an electrical "footprint" should be revealed.

5) Running a network of very low voltage induction voltage monitors, or leds:
www.youtube.com...


Regardless of what is used, as you have elaborated, you still need to create an active area for spirits.

Without offending anyone, I'm just writing these as ideas for discussion...

You could go to the “haunted mansion” or the “graveyard” and hang some of the visible ideas up in the trees, or set them upon gravestones….

One *might* consider using "Bait" for whatever you are hunting, remembering that we are not trying to kill something, we just want to record its presence. If you do know people who can talk with spirits, then these people have an attraction to the spirits. That only certain people can "hear" these voices is pretty well documented within the Spiritism (allan kardec authored some good material) field of study. So much the better, everyone else can keep their sanity and the mediums can go about doing what they do. I would suggest having this person sit in the middle of one of these monitoring grids and see what happens.

Rather than starting your research in the "middle" why not start at the beginning with the construct of "Does the human soul exist?" If you can quantify this then first then what you are trying to research will have have support and respect from the scientific community.

How about finishing off Duncan MacDougall's study with a larger scale control group were you can collect coded data ie weights, thermal camera etc at time of death. Quantitative method would most likely be readily respected than other methods. The of course you would need to jump the hurdle through the ethical committees.

I know there is a lot of scepticism with MacDougall's research, today we have significantly more tools and cadets available to us today than MacDougall ever had in 1907.

I like your idea about measuring changing air pressures in a room as many who have experienced the paranormal often state about the air feeling "thick - heavy" feeling.

I can't prove this mechanistically, but I see what little I've read on superstring theory, as possibly explaining how ghosts might work.

I see reality in general terms, operating in the same way as radio does. In other words, something broadcasts on a particular frequency band, (a transmitter) and a receiver has to be tuned to the same frequency in order to pick it up. If you check out a lot of the New Age channelling that has been written, pretty much all of it very consistently uses this theory for explaining how the deal with acorporeal intelligences work.

So our every day physical reality corresponds with a particular radio station, to use the analogy. We're usually only able to listen to that. Dead people and aliens, on the other hand, exist on a frequency other than the one we're usually tuned into, so we either can't see them at all, or we only very occasionally can, when we either take drugs or for some other reason, our receiving frequency matches their transmitting one. This also means that our physical reality, isn't the only one that exists. From their perspective, their "physical," reality is probably just as solid to them, as ours is to us.

What we need to do, is somehow build some solid physical tech that is able to flesh this out; which unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea how to do. If we could do it though, I suspect you'd find very solid evidence of the afterlife, in fairly short order. I remember seeing somewhere that Thomas Edison actually had a crack at it once, though.

I have ideas on the existence of the spirit... I think the possibility of the paranormal could best be described by the holographic priniciple developed by Leonard Suskin(sp?)

Check out the video below for a quick explaination.

Starting about approximately 4:40 in, and continues through about 11:00 minutes...for anyone who wants to see what i mean without the scientific explaination; just start at about 9-10 minutes in.

reply to post by Shark_Feeder


Thanks for the upload - very interesting. Many years ago my father spoke to me about energy. He said place your hand on the table and the energy memory remains forever.

reply to post by DonaldD


Funny enough, we now know that to be absolute fact. Which to me means that my conciousness is projected "out there" as well.

My boyfriend works for csx, hauling crew men to trains, and the other night while he was waiting for the crew to get done on the train he was inside the vehicle playing a game on his phone and he felt something watching him when he looked up he seen a 'ghost', and he flashed his lights on bright and snapped a picture. Ive never seen a ghost so clear before in a picture.

A lot has changed.

A lot hasn't.

First and foremost, my search for a way to really measure electromagnetic interference across a confined volume has all but been done for me by interferometry. With gravity waves being measured accurately and laser interferometers being accessible for $3000.00 instead of hundreds of thousands, it's just a matter of time before the costs drop enough that the components can be breadboarded on the cheap.
Bluetooth is also a big change for the set up. No need for wires. Once a rig is assmbled the first time in a neutral space the baseline EM and field dominance can be measured and excluded from future measurements. Like zero'ing a scale with the container you plant to put things in.

Lastly, I had an experience that has changed my perspective very much.

I don't have to believe in ghosts, or that there is something that remains of people after they die. Someone close to me died in 2014, and I was given proof.
The proof is anecdotal and can not benefit anyone else. It could only be witnessed by me, because of a specific series of conversations held over years of time with the individual who died, and then a series of events that occurred in an order as to leave absolutely no question in my mind as to what actually happened.

So I still don't believe in Ghosts..but I do know that when people die, they don't disappear, not if they don't want to. I cannot prove to someone else that what happened to me actually happened. But I was there. I was living it when it happened, so I know it was real.

What I understand today, that I did not understand in 2011, is faith. Now I know what faith is, and how it comes to be. And that I cannot explain it for someone else. It is not a gift I can give.

So the struggle continues. Technology has taken steps that will help. Science has taken steps that are helping.
The entire make up of the instrumentation in this theoretical array doesn't have to be eliminated, but there are multiple redundancies built in that don't need to be now.

Working with wave distribution tools and interferometry, huge selections of data can come from many fewer instruments.

I'll post again.