I would love to see proof of a ghost. We need science. Not Shamans.

I'm a big fan of paranormal research. Unfortunately, I also consider myself a scientist at my core. I started college as a biology and chemistry major on a scholarship from Dow Chemical. I was very passionate about it.
I ended up working as a professional artist instead. 3D Modeling and Animation and Distributed Information Simulation. All that boils down to mostly building training and education software and such.

The reason I mention this is because I have always been fascinated by ghost stories, and the prospect of ghosts.
I've gone to every haunted house I've ever heard of, every place where a horrible accident supposedly happened.
If someone told me it was haunted, I went there at least once if I could make it. I don't go ghost hunting though.
I took my sons ghost hunting in a graveyard when they were around 8 and 9 a couple times.
We took a camera and a digital voice recorder and we snapped pictures and asked the ghosts to talk, the whole nine yards. They were fascinated with the ghost hunters tv show, and I took it as an opportunity to really enforce the scientific method in real life. To show them how hard it is to actually gain proof of something. That research takes a tremendous amount of dedication. It was fun and exciting for them, and it was time we spent hanging out. Good enough excuse for me.

We tried to summon a witch once too on Halloween. Walking backwards, cross roads, all that stuff. They were young enough that it was interesting to them.

So why am I posting?

Because I want to express my sorrow that more real science isn't focused on what happens to the human, when the meat machine stops working. Why it is so easy to dismiss ghosts and spirits and the idea that something else can happen to people after they die.
And not even from a religious point of view. I'd rather keep religion out of it and spirituality for that matter.
I'm interested in people discussing scientific principles that are understood, and how those principles could be applied to researching ghosts and spirits and the ability of technology and science to explore those ideas and the possibly to gather actual data.

Video, Audio and temperature monitoring are novel. You can't ignore video proof directly out of hand. The problem I have with Video is that there are soooooo many things that can impact a video or photographic image.

For every image of a ghost for which no reasonable explanation can be made, you are still left with the reality that "it's an image of something, and we don't know what that something is".

Video of an unknown thing in an anecdotal haunted house, is not actual proof of a ghost. It's video of something we can't identify. That's all.

I feel audio is totally unreliable. As well with temperature fluctuations. Just too many things can influence those. Temperature itself is so subjective and fluid it can't be relied on. Audio can also be too subjective.

Electromagnetic interference is interesting to me. The human body produces a unique electromagnetic field, each human body in fact. We know that electromagnetic fields can persist for periods of time even after the source of the field has stopped emitting. Fields can build up on things that don't normally hold a field. Given a strong enough field organic material can be levitated from the atomic level.

The problem I see is that the focus on EM fields right now is too broad. There isn't enough time spent in the general science world, to separate and classify fields based on multiple characteristics other than just simply field strength and density.
Has anyone read any generic research or articles about electromagnetic field variation. What other characteristics can be measured in fields?
I am always doing research on this myself. It's not like I have a lab, I'm talking about scientific journals and articles and such. Once they are converted into lay terms that is. lol

So I'd like to point this out.
Thermal imaging devices were first developed for military purposes. According to Bullard Thermal Imaging, "In the late 1950s and 1960s, Texas Instruments, Hughes Aircraft, and Honeywell developed single element detectors that scanned scenes and produced line images. These basic detectors led to the development of modern thermal imaging." Timeline: * Sir William Herschel, an astronomer, discovered infrared in 1800 * 1950-1960 Single Element Detectors (Line Images)

The reason I bring this up is because when I worked for the DoD I had access to the Air Force Research Labs online library. When my work was slow or I was stuck waiting for some rendering or sim work to run it's course, I would log into the lab library and just search interesting terms.

One time I searched for "Electromagnetic Imaging". And what I found was a book written by a Russian Mathematician. I can't remember his name, and that is part of the problem.
The point is that this mathematician is the person who wrote the mathematical formula that allowed the single element detectors that were made in the 1950's.
This guy wrote the book while living in the united states I think, or when he was in france in the late 1910's or 1920's. Besides the thermal imaging math, he wrote a similar formula that would allow for the visualization of electromagnetic energy. From his book the two types of energy were similar enough
Imagine a camera that views EM fields directly. Now don't get all tin foil hat. The reason no one has made this camera isn't some nefarious conspiracy, and it isn't because the aliens won't let them release the information.
From talking with engineers and research scientists at the base the reason is pretty simple.

"I guess there isn't enough money in it, to make it yet, but it's an interesting idea".

That's pretty much the answer I got from some people I felt were on the level. Through discussions we couldn't see that many reasons for a company to R&D an electromagnetic imaging sensor. Since you can reliably work out how much of a field will be created in electronics through the current and resistance and materials and density, there isn't much need for a camera to view it, like there was an interest in visually seeing where heat energy was building, escaping, and emitting from. There is no need to visually see how the electromagnetic fields interact when you can create a visualization from calculations based on schematics and so on.

To me, this one thing could make a huge difference in several avenues, and I expressed this to the guys I was talking with. Over lunches and bumping into each other at base functions and so on. Since EM fields are unique, you could actually tell the difference in materials and objects based on their EM signature. What if you could visualize a bomb inside a car because explosives and metal interacting gave off a precisely unique EM signature that could be seen inside the Em field of the car itself???

Wouldn't that be useful? It would become much more difficult to hide things when you have 3 different ways to view a thing. You could make 3 way cameras that Overlap Thermal imaging, Ultraviolet, and EMF data on top of each other. Now to hide a tank in the field, you have to mask it's heat, it's regular color, it's ultraviolet reflection, and it's EM field all at the same time.

The only reason that stuff is important is because Mil-Tech drives advancement faster than anything else. And I wanna see what it looks like when you view an entire shopping mall full of people with an EM field camera.

I am curious if some more answers could be had, by having a camera that can visualize electromagnetic fields live and on the go.

Or does that sound goofy and not helpful? Cause I think it would be helpful, or at least, could potentially be helpful.

Also if anyone wants to dig for the name of that Russian Mathematician. Cause I have run aground many times searching for his name and I no longer have access to the AFRL Library.

I know it's going to happen anyway...but ...if your ideas or comments on this subject involve any bibles, or spirits, or aliens, or anything other than just base principles of the "sheeples" science understanding, please make your own thread. Just avoid this one.
I'm sure the gray aliens and raptoids know all about this stuff. But unless they are going to bring me a completed unit to use, and the plans to make new ones, I'd rather discuss it as though we don't already know it as fact. Thanks.

I feel the pain brother...fully agree.

I am all about the science. I see ghosts are illogical, unnecessary, and ultimately the champion cause of every snake oil salesmen from here to timbuktu

and imagine how frustrated then I am with the fact that I have had a few very profound "ghost" experiences in my time that to day still frustrates the hell out of me. it makes no sense...none whatsoever, yet to ignore it would be simply a religious reaction..(not a fan of religion).

What can be used? well, due to its near forbidden nature to even discuss, even hypothesis's aren't out there...so we are left with the "shaman" types running the show on this, from what have experienced, very valid phenomona.

The reason science cannot really touch it yet is because its not really repeatable...you can't simply summon a ghost to float a dish across the room...so your left with a real dilemma...what is a ghost? what does it effect (electromagnetics? certain spectrums of energy? etc)...to build tools, you need proper science done to see what tools should be made...but for proper science to even be a factor, you need this random stuff to...not be random.

I have been trying to figure this dilemma out for decades now...I want to know what I experienced dammit...was it my long lost aunt edna? was it telekenesis? dimensional creatures? hell..pixies...donno, because the random nature of it makes tool building extraordinarily difficult

Star n Flag for feeling the pain.

You want to keep spirituality out of the search for the spirit realm?

You shouldn't drag your kids into it. Just because you can't percieve the spiritual does not mean your kids won't be able to. The unfortunate side effect of that will be a parent goading them on into something potentially dangerous.

You won't be able to undo that damage.

Originally posted by unicomsol
I feel the pain brother...fully agree.

I am all about the science. I see ghosts are illogical, unnecessary, and ultimately the champion cause of every snake oil salesmen from here to timbuktu

and imagine how frustrated then I am with the fact that I have had a few very profound "ghost" experiences in my time that to day still frustrates the hell out of me. it makes no sense...none whatsoever, yet to ignore it would be simply a religious reaction..(not a fan of religion).

What can be used? well, due to its near forbidden nature to even discuss, even hypothesis's aren't out there...so we are left with the "shaman" types running the show on this, from what have experienced, very valid phenomona.

The reason science cannot really touch it yet is because its not really repeatable...you can't simply summon a ghost to float a dish across the room...so your left with a real dilemma...what is a ghost? what does it effect (electromagnetics? certain spectrums of energy? etc)...to build tools, you need proper science done to see what tools should be made...but for proper science to even be a factor, you need this random stuff to...not be random.

I have been trying to figure this dilemma out for decades now...I want to know what I experienced dammit...was it my long lost aunt edna? was it telekenesis? dimensional creatures? hell..pixies...donno, because the random nature of it makes tool building extraordinarily difficult

Star n Flag for feeling the pain.

Alright then, you've just provided us with a plan.

Log into face book and post this as your status, and try to convince your friends and family to spread it. I'll convince mine to as well.
[please excuse the caps, it is for comedic embellishment]

DEAR GHOSTS!!! BE LESS RANDOM!!! WE NEED THIS FROM YOU, SO DO IT. PLEASE!

I'm sure that will help. Baby steps right?

Originally posted by Butterbone
Alright then, you've just provided us with a plan.

Log into face book and post this as your status, and try to convince your friends and family to spread it. I'll convince mine to as well.
[please excuse the caps, it is for comedic embellishment]

DEAR GHOSTS!!! BE LESS RANDOM!!! WE NEED THIS FROM YOU, SO DO IT. PLEASE!

I'm sure that will help. Baby steps right?

Not sure if ghosts get facebook...perhaps they have some ouija board alternative

I think for thousands upon thousands of years, people have been trying to figure this phenomona out...from making up religions, sacrificing animals and people, using crystal balls, meditating, etc...and so far, nothing seems to make it any less random.

science is the only hope overall, I agree with that, however, the trick is to get proper equiptment and professors to spend time studying the phenomona for science (you monster)

Originally posted by siren8
You want to keep spirituality out of the search for the spirit realm?

You shouldn't drag your kids into it. Just because you can't percieve the spiritual does not mean your kids won't be able to. The unfortunate side effect of that will be a parent goading them on into something potentially dangerous.

You won't be able to undo that damage.

My sons asked me to take them ghost hunting. I saw it as a learning opportunity. And I only use the word "spirit" because it is a commonly used term for ghosts.
Questioning my childrens safety under my supervision is.... well it's trolling and insulting.
I put my children in no danger. We even had permission to walk through the graveyard at night. The church thought it was cute.
If you give someone the chance to answer their own questions, they often come up with the right answers for themselves.
And by that, I mean, the right answer For Their Own Self. Not the "right answer" you wanted them to get.
Based on that we can avoid the semantic "right answer" quibble.

Thanks for attempting to side track this discussion.

Now to hide a tank in the field, you have to mask it's heat, it's regular color, it's ultraviolet reflection, and it's EM field all at the same tim

Upon further reading, you have no interest in the spiritual and it sounds more like you want to see EM.

What you mentioned about heat, color and UV, they are all part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and we can see or detect them all. From what I gather, the EM field and an objects gravity--attraction force-- are pretty much the same thing. And most objects on earth have relatively small gravity, something like a tank in a field would anyway. There is really no need to, "see it". Although if they can detect it I'm sure some computer genious out there can find a way to make it visual.

Only things with a current would have enough to detect anyway. A stationary, powered down object wouldn't have much.

Unless your looking for a giant eleoctro magnet.

yeaaa - good luck with. without any real respect for the shaman and his or her purpose in communicating with the other dimensions [where your mind fears to tread] - what interest could you have in the other side, anyway? what could you possibly learn from something which you mock out of the gates? h00mans have much to learn.

reply to post by Butterbone


Well i do not have much of proof except for the fact that i saw one when i was younger. I made a thread about it. If your interested here it is for you to read.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Butterbone


You sound like someone who admittedly has had very little experience with the spirit world indeed. You don't know the risks. They won't be finding the truth for themselves, they will be finding what they are being led into by an exited parent, or they will find what the spirit world decides to teach them. How can you supervise something you admittedly aren't grasping yourself?

Learn something on your own before you take your kids down that road.

I know this is kind of over simplifying things, but since there is a consensus among 3 that measurement really is a key ingredient here, what can we measure?

Not in terms of Ghosts. We gotta start simpler than that. If you start theorizing about what a ghost is, then you skew your ideas of what to measure for and how to measure for that based on what you "think" you are trying to measure right. So we have to eliminate the concepts that are creeping in


We've covered standard visual spectrum. Audio Spectrum. Thermal Spectrum. And to a much smaller degree Electromagnetic Spectrum.

We know that all of these are very subjective. They require interpretation, and this is where the "subjective" creeps in.

So in addition to measurement, we need what? A Control. We need video, audio, thermal and electromagnetic readings that can be used as a base for normal and average in "space".
So really the best way to begin tackling these measurements is from that standard.

We simply want to measure space. So if we are just going to measure a specific volume of space for differences that are significant enough to be proof that something that cannot currently be explained is happening, and that it is of sufficient variation to warrant further study right?

Is that succinct enough? Do we need to make that more specific? Because that statement means that any variation that can be measured to be significantly outside the range of normal and average would qualify as "an event".

What else can we measure? Barometric Pressure? Ok. Photons? Ok.Air Movement? Ok. Air Composition? Ok.
uhm....I'm runnin out of things to measure.

Is anyone familiar with a method to measure "displacement" of air inside a volume of space that may or may not be sealed?

So lets say someone says they keep seeing a ghost in the living room. What we really want to measure is that space, repeatedly for deviations from standard. Volume displacement measurements would be a great way to determine that something had changed inside a space.

Why did I say photons? Well imagine an incredibly fine laser grid, with receptors that can measure even minor fluctuations. It would have to be calibrated to allow for particles the size of "normal" or averaged dust to be ignored.
Anything with mass will interact with a photon stream. Maybe the calibration for dust would be too high. Who knows.
Maybe you want 3 types of laser that give you a good sampling range of the spectrum of photons available.


Electromagnetic Fields? OK instead of one person walking around the room holding an EMF meter that is really used to test for electrical problems, maybe we build a more compact EMF detector that picks up a very minor range of weak field density. We make them really small and really cheap, as cheap as we can.
Now for every point on the laser grid where two lasers intersect, we set one of these small EMF detectors, we take baseline readings in order to average any variations that can be created by the lasers themselves if thats possible.

Now we have 2 intersections of correlating data. If something of mass that is big enough to interfere with the lasers, moves through the room, it is may or may not be read as well with the EMF detectors, they would coincide in the data streams to overlap. Photon sensor, 3c,4d,5e,and 6f detected movement and the corresponding EMF detectors did or did not show field variation in the same region at the same time.

That would be interesting information, if you could show movement, of an unseen mass object inside what is ostensibly a sealed environment thought to be haunted?
Right?

Add in cameras and temperature data, and all these subjective data sets build on each other. It makes a much deeper level of observation.
That kind of depth is what is currently missing from most "ghost" hunting or research.

Or does that sound stupid??

Also please chime in with other measurements that you think can be taken, other than simple length and width and height of course. Those would have to be taken for the base and control anyway.

Maybe we can come up with crossing data types that really can prove something was inside of a "sealed" volume of space that can't be placed in a glass box and isolated.

Originally posted by siren8
reply to post by Butterbone

 

You sound like someone who admittedly has had very little experience with the spirit world indeed.

little experience with the spirit world...well, I would venture to say that applies to everyone alive today..
having experience with the spirit world means..you know...going there.

having experience claiming knowledge of the "spirit world" however is common place..people can claim anything.

You don't know the risks.

Nobody does...its unknown...unknown things have unknown risks.

They won't be finding the truth for themselves, they will be finding what they are being led into by an exited parent, or they will find what the spirit world decides to teach them. How can you supervise something you admittedly aren't grasping yourself?

Such is life...you know...funny thing, teachers require students..and students either learn by choice, or by force.
by force, they basically have no choice...and will comply with it out of necessity...but by choice, which is this case, and they will either learn what is presented, or simply reject it if it doesn't suit them to begin with.

Learn something on your own before you take your kids down that road.

how do you learn the unknown...it is by definition, unknown...therefore you can't study up on it...only study up on other peoples claims (based on whatever superstition they have decided to incorporate)

Originally posted by unicomsol

Originally posted by siren8
reply to post by Butterbone

 

You sound like someone who admittedly has had very little experience with the spirit world indeed.

little experience with the spirit world...well, I would venture to say that applies to everyone alive today..
having experience with the spirit world means..you know...going there.

having experience claiming knowledge of the "spirit world" however is common place..people can claim anything.

You don't know the risks.

Nobody does...its unknown...unknown things have unknown risks.

They won't be finding the truth for themselves, they will be finding what they are being led into by an exited parent, or they will find what the spirit world decides to teach them. How can you supervise something you admittedly aren't grasping yourself?

Such is life...you know...funny thing, teachers require students..and students either learn by choice, or by force.
by force, they basically have no choice...and will comply with it out of necessity...but by choice, which is this case, and they will either learn what is presented, or simply reject it if it doesn't suit them to begin with.

Learn something on your own before you take your kids down that road.

how do you learn the unknown...it is by definition, unknown...therefore you can't study up on it...only study up on other peoples claims (based on whatever superstition they have decided to incorporate)

Don't take the bait!! LOL You obviously have the ability to contribute to this thread in a meaningful way. I'm going to have to post an apology to the shamans, and maybe they'll drop this thread.

This is a blanket apology to the Shamans and Ghost people. And I don't know a better way to say that. So...sorry for that too. Maybe, people who..I don't wanna say believe....hmmmm. I don't know. People who think they can see ghosts Ok. Or that they already know about ghosts through spiritual or intuitive means.

I don't share your beliefs, but I wasn't trying to belittle them. This thread is all about discussing ways to gain evidence and possibly better understand those very subjects. I just expressed an interest in doing that through the most base scientific methods, and not anecdotal means.
That's all.
If the science of this idea doesn't interest you, then there really isn't a reason for you to care about it. We are not tearing anything down, instead we are trying to build something up, the best way we know how.

Moisture content??? Humidity I mean. I guess that could just fall under the blanket of "air composition".

So for air composition, I know there are samplers that give a pretty fast break down of elements in the air and the balance of those based on how much.
But do you think that needs to be sampled across the grid as well?


Let's do this. Lets make a standard pattern for the grid and all instrumentation should be distributed on the grid evenly at crossing points.

A grid that is 1 horizontal point for every 12 inches on the X and Y, and then 3 vertical layers of the same set up. Divided roughly between the volume we are trying to measure.

So we have a multi-spectrum laser set up. Green Red and Blue lasers pointing at their own individual sensor. These would be as a set on a pole so that you get 3 vertical layers of this grid with the divided space starting 12 inches above the "floor" and 12 inches below the "ceiling" and starting 12 inches off of X and Y enclosures respectively.

For example the room is 10 foot by 10 foot. So starting 12 inches from the east wall we have 8 posts. On these 8 posts we add the 3 laser arrays and on the opposing walls the receptor array. Go to the north wall and do the same thing.

Now the rest of the sensors, EMF detectors, Air samplers, Temperature and barrometric pressure cluster would be suspended from cables or poles that can be set up and taken down without harm to the environment.
We offset them from the lasers by however much is needed because the suspended instrument cluster could be kind of big. We want them as close as possible to the laser intersects, but they can't cross the lasers.

Can you visualize this? Maybe I need to make a model of this. That could be kind of help full to illustrate it I guess.

Well, I believe in the human ability to sense things we don't yet have scientific intruments for; however, I totally understand where you are coming from with this thread. Here is the challenge.. the study of what happens after mortal death is such a culturally sensative subject. In a perfect world, we would have voluntary euthanasia and be able to study these things in a controlled environment... Alas, humans are particular about such things, so I don't see that happening in the near future.

In any case, I don't neccesarilly see EM as being a red herring, but I do think that there may be some as yet undiscovered aspects of nature that would help us further understand the nature of what exists beyond our physical forms. Until we have the instruments to measure these forces, we are a bit "stuck".

I applaud your thread and intentions, this is a completely hidden world which science must address.

I don't believe at this point you can succeed, if only for the technology, but "spirits" do not conform to anything scientific, and almost by intent avoid detection. There is intent in many respects, and that's part of the mystery.

I can't really add much to your studies, but here's an interesting bit of info, i hope. The theosophists and others who in the early last century conducting a lot of scientific research into spiritualism, including photos, audio recorders and such (Blavatsky, Crowley, etc), had many influential and clever friends. One of the apparent spin offs of research into "spirits" led to the creation of the cathode ray tube. We of course know this as the TV, but the high EM fields created in the CRT had some overlapping with psychic research. I don't know enough to go on, but perhaps a thread for you to investigate?

Without getting into the "mystical", which you've asked not to, i've had several paranormal experiences, and any subsequent attempt to rationalise them has failed miserably. That they exist is without doubt (imho), but that they will ever be "bottled" is questionable, as i said, their nature is anti-scientific. They do not conform to the physical laws. However they can manipulate these forces, like gravity and electrics. I had a fight recently with one in a houses db board, which it repeatedly tripped, now you could maybe pick up a voltage surge or dip with measuring devices, but you would first have to convince a "spirit" to apply the energy. Thats what science cannot do now, have a subject that cannot be produced. (and i wouldn't advise trying to work with this particular devil)

The only valid esoteric experiment that i've ever heard of, which is unarguable, was in a case of a young lady somewhere in Russia, where they have have integrated science and spirituality for decades. She was a phycho-kineticist, someone who could move objects. The experiment included a large tank filled with saline, into which an egg was dropped. The young lady was able to separate the white from the yolk, into two seperate spheres. The entire experiment was rigorously monitored in all aspects, and was not undult influenced in any way. Although its worth mentioning that the first attempt failed, the second succeeded, but the lady was unable to repeat the performance, until after resting for a few days.

My point is this: even successful scientific experiments are not truly scientific, ie they cannot be reproduced at will, repeatedly. A large part of the blame falls on scientific method itself, which has fallen under Aristotles spell, convincing us all that subject and object are forever separate. There is still no real acknowledgement of differences in "psychic abilities" between 2 almost identical homo sapiens. The investigation of the spirit world would lead you to understand that such scientific duality is NOT in fact an accurate reflection of "objective" reality, and you are left with a catch-22.

Good luck with this, hope my comments helped

The problem with identifying them is that you dont know what they are exactly. Once you can do that you can identify them if they are in fact real on a larger scale.

reply to post by Butterbone


Pressure sensors?
Like...
Those fancy pads that measure pressure.

Sorry, my technical terminology isn't the bestest, I'm an uber layman.
Also, how would we test regarding seeing things passing through walls, hearing footsteps, objects being moved without actual physical contact?
I know I have other ideas, they're just clogged up in my mind.

After hearing scary horror stories about people and ghosts and spirits while growing up(really, truckloads of them) I ONCE saw something unexplainable, of which I'm sure, as I was not experiencing sleep paralysis(I could still move) and as another person came into the room the young girl with long hair and a red glow all over vanished in thin air in front of my eyes.

And the weird part is, after hearing all these scary stories I thought I'd be scared but to tell the truth, I felt in sync somehow.

This was years ago. Never experienced something similar before or after this occurrence.

And I'm a person who doesn't believe 99.9% of these ghost and spirit stories.

Edit:

I tried touching her(I presume) hair, but I felt no structure - my hand went right through. All I saw was a red glow(kind of like what you see on infrared cameras but more fuzzy) in the form of a young girl(I'd guess age ~10?) with long hair.