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New book: secret at Nevada's Area 51 is espionage, Not UFO aliens

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posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:41 PM
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At the beginning of "Area 51," Annie Jacobsen's cauldron-stirring book about America's most mysterious military installation, she offers a passing glimpse of a large-headed little space alien being interrogated by scientists in white coats. This is both a tease and a distraction. Yes, Jacobsen will eventually address the UFO issue with which conspiracy theorists eagerly associate Area 51, but her book is not science fiction. It is a levelheaded, revelatory but also mystifying account of the long-hidden U.S. weaponry and espionage programs to which she says Area 51 is home.

Jacobsen, a national security reporter and contributing editor to the Los Angeles Times Magazine, happened to be at a 2007 family dinner with her husband's uncle's wife's sister's 88-year-old husband, the physicist Edward Lovick, when Lovick leaned over and said, "Have I got a good story for you."




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edit on 23-5-2011 by GAOTU789 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by CountDrac
 


Nice catch, good to see more mundane and terrestrial solutions being offered for this installation. UFOs and Fairy Tales are good cover for covert operations and anything we've seen is explained easier by mans own intelligence then the product of an Alien civilization. Although I do believe that life exists out there as advanced forms, I could never see the reason they would want to have anything to do with a petty ignorant race such as ours. Even our shining pillars of intellect are reduced to the level of children's toys in the face of a society that has mastered the secrets of the Universe and Space.

SnF for you.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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Already posted
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You should also use EX-Text tags for copy and past content.

edit on 22-5-2011 by gortex because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by Imhotepsol
 


i couldnt have said it better...



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Imhotepsol
reply to post by CountDrac
 


Nice catch, good to see more mundane and terrestrial solutions being offered for this installation. UFOs and Fairy Tales are good cover for covert operations and anything we've seen is explained easier by mans own intelligence then the product of an Alien civilization. Although I do believe that life exists out there as advanced forms, I could never see the reason they would want to have anything to do with a petty ignorant race such as ours. Even our shining pillars of intellect are reduced to the level of children's toys in the face of a society that has mastered the secrets of the Universe and Space.

SnF for you.


Her alternate story for what the ufo in roswell actually was is more insane than the alien theory in my honest opinion.. but lets also not forget she presents no facts or evidence.. only stories from people she says she trusts.. it's all interesting, I'll concede to that point but I don't really buy into a lot of it..

I also don't think Area 51 is an alien research facility though..



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by miniatus
 


I haven't read the book yet so I don't know what proof they offer. She does however give names.

I see a couple of things working in favor of this story. Old people, the majority of them anyway, do not turn into some delusional semi-functional retards with age. I think this is quite plausible because now the generation that has seen the advances and the potential benefits suppressed by the MIC are about to come of age. It would be quite rational for them to want to share this information with people, especially when they've lived a full life. Thats the format any disclosure will take if it is ever to come. I'm not saying I outright believe them but I do feel that a case like this has more going for it and should have more exposure then a work hyping alien visitors.

There may have been contact in the past, there may be contact in the present. There is no solid proof either way. Everything we see is just advanced technology not magic, witchcraft or intergalactic beings. If there is technology you can be damn sure there is a human ass operating it. That is the most logical assumption a person can infer and the thing which must be examined before any other theories are given clout.

This is how I see it.

Imagine if you will one day researchers discovered a great technology. Some thing so advanced that it would instantly revolutionize society and the planet. Free power, which lead to unlimited access to resources, anti-gravity, a world where nature and technology are bound together like a faithful attendant to our beautiful mother. Now imagine the people who are first approached by advances such as this see the value of stunting the development and offering it out in much smaller portions in the hope immense profit can be extracted before critical mass is attained.

Say what you like about Tesla but his experiments worked, the world has had access to more advanced knowledge then we still have access to now almost a hundred years ago. Research facilities such as Area 51 would welcome the theorizing about Alien aircraft because it removes the line of questioning that if we possess technology that advanced then why the hell don't we have access to it. The general population of America already know that Military technology is already estimated to be 50 years ahead of the civilian population yet missiles, guidance systems, nuclear technology all of this hasn't really shown much development in the past 50 years.

If all of this great technology we are now just starting to get access to has opened up so much potential for us - imagine what we could do 50 years from now if we still had contact with today.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by CountDrac
 


Here is my take on this controversial book:

The "sensational" aspect of this book is simply a teaser and not the main theme.
But, unfortunately, that tiny aspect of this book has been overblown by many critics and reviewers and seems to have dominated the discussions.

One commentator ( New York Times News Service ) said it quite well: "Although the connect-the-dots UFO thesis is only a hasty-sounding addendum to an otherwise straightforward investigative book, it makes an indelible impression. Her book is liable to become best-known for its inflammatory sci-fi provocation."

Out of 523 pages total, the so-called "sensational" suggestion only occupies just 2 pages, only at the very end, and practically has nothing to do with the rest of the book.

Personally, I think this is quite a brilliant book.
Only Annie Jacobsen herself knows the ultimate intention behind this fascinating writing.
It could be that she intentionally included the "sensational, incredible, science fiction-like" aspect, i.e., the Roswell 'connection' to Area 51 ( at least that is how it has always been regarded by the so-called "mainstream" ) at the very end of this book for a purpose. If that is the case, no one would ever know why she did it, except her. Was it a compromise?
Was it an intentional "disinformation"? ( No one knows, just as no one knows the real intention of why I write certain things, except me ).

It's up to the reader to make up his or her own mind....and she leaves it like that.

I think this is the best book that I have ever read on Area 51.
However, just because I say so does not mean that I believe and endorse some of the things the book brings out.*
My evaluation of a book of this kind is based on the following questions:

1) Was this book well written?
2) Was it fascinating and riveting?
3) Did it bring out a new perspective on things?
4) Did it stimulate my intellectual pursuit?

I gave resounding "yes" on all of the above.
I would say to everyone: READ IT!!


*I had a preconceived notion that the prototype German flying wing aircraft Horten Ho. 229 had a range of only about a 1000 miles (or less), at least at the time that it had been test-flown in Germany around 1943, even though it may have used some type of ramjet engine and was claimed to have flown at the speed of anywhere from 400 to 600 miles per hour. It is possible, too, that it may also have utilized some type of prototype coating to make radar detection somewhat difficult. ( i.e., the ancestor of stealth technology).

Rather than the Russians getting hold of it (as it seems to be insinuated in the book) I was under the impression that it was the United States that got hold of the aircraft, even though initially the US Army claimed that they were not that impressed with Horten Ho. 229, unless they were talking about several other versions that the Horten Brothers were working on.

But one thing that I agree is that Operation Paperclip and the impact of German scientists and engineers did play a significant role in the philosophy of weapons systems that was the initial basis of Black Programs at Area 51.

It is also an interesting fact that EG & G was established in 1947, the very same year that CIA, NSA and the Department of the Air Force were all established.


Here is an excellent comment by Tedd Dapp:

(QUOTE)

It seems to have become the norm, judge before reading, based on a review or title.
I see it everyday here on Facebook with people responding to a linked story.....but responding not to the story itself, but the title only and basing their 'opinion on that.

I reserve my opinion of this book until after I have read it.

(But after reading and watching a few interviews with the author, I had already come to the conclusion the "sensational" aspect was included because if there was no mention of Roswell's connection to Area 51 -- there would be louder cries of "disinformation".

And, as I am sure you are aware, the majority will attack and attempt to discredit anyone who poses any theory that challenges what they WANT to be true.

(UNQUOTE).



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by CountDrac
 


Annie Jacobsen's new book on AREA 51 reaches number one in Barnes & Nobles, and number two in Amazon:

www.youtube.com...



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 09:44 PM
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My problem with the book is pretty simple. The author exhibits a complete ignorance of the most basic of terminology and history of high tech weaponry and that throws into doubt, pretty much, anything else they might have to say.

Nothing to do with UFOs however, when someone uses the term *dirty bomb* in completely the wrong context time and time again, I for one, am led to the conclusion that, anything they might write subsequent to this, has to be taken with a shovel load of salt.

Is there, for instance, any mention of quite the Blackbird project was kept so secret? The actual reason is pretty humourous that being. The titanium to build it came from, the USSR and as one might expect, there was no way in the world, at the time, the Americans ever wanted them to discover that or, as you might well imagine, the source was very liable to dry up. This need for secrecy in turn, led to a whole series of blind and cover projects being set up to hide exactly where the large quantities of the precious metal was actually going.

What Area 51 did give the Americans was, a place totally outside the remit of the civil law and therefore a place where any mad cap design or idea could be tested with total impunity when it came to legal fall-out. A place where health and safety legislation could be neatly bypassed, as in the incineration of highly toxic chemicals in open pits and the workforce not only muzzled in public but the courts as well.

Ergo, much of the secrecy was about *butt saving* rather than the specific technologies under development. Plus, no awkward Senatorial committees asking pertinent and difficult questions about billions of tax dollars being spent on some, quite possibly, preposterous projects.

The idea that some sort of *alien technology* might be stored and tested there , was therefore a perfectly logical thought process following the line that. If the American government does have any then Area 51 would be the best place to keep it. . I'd be surprised to hear anyone claim that, Area 51 was initially set up solely as a repository for *Alien tech* . it quite obviously wasn't as it wouldn't need a runway about the length of Wales to test air frames that take off vertically would it? I guess if one wanted to be obtuse, one could claim that the runway was a blind however that flies in the face of the known facts namely that, it was where the U2 was first flown from.


Much reviled as he might be and maybe he is a fake however one part of Bob Lazar's testimony that does stand up to scrutiny is really rather pertinent. He did say to a group of people "I will show you a UFO" and having made the claim backed it up and those people are on the record as admitting he did that and that proof came at Area 51. Now if someone had a rational scientific explanation for that incident, fair enough, however, to my knowledge that part of Lazar's tale still stands up and so, pointedly one might say, has been quietly forgotten in the rush to intellectually disembowel the guy in public.

Personally, to my mind Area 51 was a *geeks paradise* during the boom times of the four post war decades and was probably staffed by people who didn't give a hoot about public accountability so long as they could play with their toys.


See, there lies the rub and what people are pointing out. Had this been a book written by someone proposing there was Alien tech there it would have been summarily dismissed out of hand, for the glaring inaccuracies it contains and the quite obvious lack of scientific and technological nous and naivety of the author. As it does the opposite, people seem to be willing to lean over backwards and ignore those fatal mistakes, because it fits their agenda.
edit on 22-5-2011 by FireMoon because: grammar



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by FireMoon


FireMoon, thanks yet once again, for bringing facts and logic to the discussion. As your evidence continues to point out, this book has more holes than swiss cheese.

Your astute observations on Bob Lazar are what really caught my eye, especially coming from someone who apparently knows the case quite well just from the facts, without the luxury of having to been able to personally venture out there to see for yourself.


... If the American government does have any then Area 51 would be the best place to keep it. . I'd be surprised to hear anyone claim that, Area 51 was initially set up solely as a repository for *Alien tech* ....

Very true. In fact all claims instead indicate that many years later after the construction of the restricted 'Area'... (consisting of several independent tenant 'sites' managed and maintained by different agencies), a small piece of real estate there was quietly 'loaned' to an un- named project, who used it to house and back- engineer recovered alien technology.




..it quite obviously wasn't as it wouldn't need a runway about the length of Wales to test air frames that take off vertically would it? I guess if one wanted to be obtuse, one could claim that the runway was a blind however that flies in the face of the known facts namely that, it was where the U2 was first flown from.

Which is a indeed a fact of confirmation to it's pre or co- existence, along with several other hush- hush military aircraft projects through out the years.



Much reviled as he might be and maybe he is a fake however one part of Bob Lazar's testimony that does stand up to scrutiny is really rather pertinent. He did say to a group of people "I will show you a UFO" and having made the claim backed it up and those people are on the record as admitting he did that and that proof came at Area 51.


Indeed. Many seem to 'miss' or prefer to ignore this extremely pertinent fact.

I am also another one of those people who can vouch for his claim. Shortly after his testimony was broadcast on the evening television news in Nevada, without telling anyone, not even family or friends (except the one I borrowed the video-camera from), I snuck off in the dark of night and took a trip to drive out to the middle of the Nevada desert to see if his apparently supported claims were true.

Bob wasn't there. In fact no one else was out there. But for some reason in the dead of night, the same craft that he reported and videotaped, and had shown to others before getting caught, suddenly appeared from up over the mountain ridge right where he said they would, and performed impossible maneuvers just like he said they could.

Was this amazing performance out in the middle of no where in the dead of night, not known in advance, put on solely for my benefit?

Not hardly.

Let's also remember that Bob Lazar is -the entire reason- that ANY of us even KNOW the name
-Area 51-.

Period.

So how did he know about this secret place before anyone else did? And also know exactly what amazing impossible things were to be seen when and where, before anyone else did?

Without his testimony on the evening news that fateful week in Nevada, to this day the world would continue to remain unaware of the existence and activities of this remote and unmarked base (unless for some reason you were to randomly venture off the pavement out in the middle of Nevada, down one of many old unmarked dirt roads leading off in the middle of nowhere, even further into the desert).



Now if someone had a rational scientific explanation for that incident, fair enough, however, to my knowledge that part of Lazar's tale still stands up and so, pointedly one might say, has been quietly forgotten in the rush to intellectually disembowel the guy in public.


Youch! I doubt you will get any takers on that one. A 'rational scientific explanation' for craft that can go 15,000 mph and also cut sudden 90° corners without slowing down is not likely coming anytime soon. - Also an 'explanation' for how in 1947 craft performing these exact same impossible maneuvers were reported many times across the United Stated in the days just before Roswell, will be an even longer wait.



Personally, to my mind Area 51 was a *geeks paradise* during the boom times of the four post war decades and was probably staffed by people who didn't give a hoot about public accountability so long as they could play with their toys.

That observation is also supported by the available evidence.




See, there lies the rub and what people are pointing out. Had this been a book written by someone proposing there was Alien tech there it would have been summarily dismissed out of hand, for the glaring inaccuracies it contains and the quite obvious lack of scientific and technological nous and naivety of the author. As it does the opposite, people seem to be willing to lean over backwards and ignore those fatal mistakes, because it fits their agenda.


Thanks for proving that at least a few people are paying attention out there.




edit on 23-5-2011 by A51Watcher because: the usual



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by A51Watcher
Indeed. Many seem to 'miss' or prefer to ignore this extremely pertinent fact.

I am also another one of those people who can vouch for his claim. Shortly after his testimony was broadcast on the evening television news in Nevada, without telling anyone, not even family or friends (except the one I borrowed the video-camera from), I snuck off in the dark of night and took a trip to drive out to the middle of the Nevada desert to see if his apparently supported claims were true.

Bob wasn't there. In fact no one else was out there. But for some reason in the dead of night, the same craft that he reported and videotaped, and had shown to others before getting caught, suddenly appeared from up over the mountain ridge right where he said they would, and performed impossible maneuvers just like he said they could.

Was this amazing performance out in the middle of no where in the dead of night, not known in advance, put on solely for my benefit?

Not hardly.

Let's also remember that Bob Lazar is -the entire reason- that ANY of us even KNOW the name
-Area 51-.

Period.


Hi there, do you know what the best threads are for reading further about this? Along with Roswell I've seen Area 51 for a long time as such a major thing for so many that there's too much made up stuff to trawl through and haven't really been interested, but have never heard this about Lazar before.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by robhines

Hi there, do you know what the best threads are for reading further about this? Along with Roswell I've seen Area 51 for a long time as such a major thing for so many that there's too much made up stuff to trawl through and haven't really been interested, but have never heard this about Lazar before.


Sure. I completely understand and agree. And sadly TV specials have also been shown to not be providing facts.

Witness testimony and well- researched books are your best source for any case.

But I don't think a thread exists anywhere in the world where some fruitcake does not pop in now and again for a quick hello or prolonged rant.



However a few threads here on ATS I found of interest on those subjects are:

This one that gets around to covering some of the real facts you may not have heard about the Lazar case:

Bob Lazar seems to confirm Zecharia Sitchin

If you have any further questions left on that case, I am sure you can get them answered there.


And as for Roswell, the original thread that details all the real evidence is here:

THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART I.


and more recently an interesting one has turned up a few new surprises about Roswell here:

The Day Before Roswell



I trust you will find them of interest and informative.


Cheers



posted on May, 31 2011 @ 05:34 AM
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I have been reading a copy of the new book "Area 51" by Annie Jacobsen. There are many interesting stories in this book, but one in particular caught my eye (page 205.)

In April 1962 the NASA X-15 rocket plane was being flown between California and Nevada, by test pilot Joe Walker. Walker took photographs, and NASA released these. "But NASA had not scrutinised the photos closely before their public release, and officials missed the fact that a tiny "UFO" appeared in the corner of one of Walker's pictures. In reality, it was an Oxcart, but the press identified it as a UFO." For example www.youtube.com...

The Oxcart's full name was the Archangel-12 Oxcart, the CIA's Mach 3, black program, spy plane built by Lockheed. See www.foia.cia.gov... for more information.

Jacobsen continues, "Two weeks after the incident, the CIA's new director, John McCone, received a secret, priority Teletype on the matter stating that "on 30 April, A-12 was in air at altitude of 30,000 feet from 0948-106 local with concurrent X-15 tests." and that "publicity releases mention unidentified objects in film taken on an X-15 flight." This message, which was not declassified until 2007...In total 2,850 Oxcart flights would be flown out of Area 51 over a period of six years. Exactly how many of these flights generated UFO reports is not known."

My comments:

1. The USAF had three versions of the Oxcart; the YF-12A the attack version; one which carried a drone on its back; and the RS-71 Blackbird (later renamed the SR-71 Blackbird.)

Did the A-12 or SR-71 ever visit Australia? (I live in South Australia.) I searched the net but couldn't find any references to it visiting Australia. However, one of my neighbours (now deceased), who at the time was based at RAAF Base Edinburgh, South Australia, once saw an SR-71 on the ground at that base.

2. I found that the CIA teletype which Jacobsen mentions, is available on the net on the CIA's webpage, click www.foia.cia.gov... to read it for yourself.

It does raise a question in my mind, as to whether any Australian UFO reports were due to A-12 or SR-71 aircraft?

Do any ATS readers have information about the plane in Australia?



posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 09:52 PM
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reply to post by A51Watcher
 



I thumbed through the book today. Interesting. I am not sure about the Nazi/Soviet theory, but the book was pretty good (and that stuff is actually a small part of it).

Intersting point you made about Bob Lazar, that despite his claim he did take people out to the desert to see a UFO when he said it would be there. (Could be part of a misinfo campaign) but you said you saw something on your own. On two seperate occasions (about 10 years apart), while driving across Nevada and Utah at night, I too have seen some "strange lights". Probably military tests, but who knows.

Anyways, you mentioned how we wouldn't know the name of Area 51 if it weren't for Mr. Lazar, that's true...sort of.

In Tom Clancy's novel "Red Storm Rising" (about a ficitional WWIII and was written in 84 and 85 and published in 86); he has a chapter called, "The Frisbees of Dreamland" which tells a subplot story in the novel of attacks on Soviet positions using the "F19" Stealth Fighter, unofficially nick named in the novel by it's crews as the frisbee. I don't know if your aware of the history, but at the time it was kind of an "open secret" in the press that the us was developing a stealth fighter, which of course we now know were the F117s.

I bring this up because in the chapter, while "area51" by name is NOT mentioned, in the narrative Clancy mentions the stealth aircraft was tested and even used in mock war games at the Groom Lake Test Facility called "Dreamland", both real world alternative nicknames to the facility. All this in 86, well before the Lazar story. Perhaps someone let Mr Clancy in on something. Incidently after the novel "the Hunt for Red October" was published the Navy and CIA interviewed Clancy at length because they thought someone had leaked submarine secrets to him for his book to be so accurate. He proved/claimed he got all info on open source, and made educated guesses.

edit on 11-6-2011 by SrWingCommander because: spelling

edit on 11-6-2011 by SrWingCommander because: more spelling, i haven't had much sleep lately...



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 02:05 AM
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reply to post by SrWingCommander
 


Interesting, thanks, I was not aware of that book. And of course I agree with your point about technically, researchers in the loop (few as they were) had previously been privy to rumors from unnamed sources, of a TS base somewhere in the desert that housed ET bodies and wreckage. Leonard Stringfield among a few others shared these.

As far as my sighting out there, it was way beyond odd lights. Specifically - Craft doing roughly 15,000 mph and cutting multiple 90 degree corners on a dime without slowing down (just for starters). I also personally saw these same actions in 1967 above my home town. These same movements and speed were tracked and recorded in 1947 in the days before Roswell. And we certainly would not continuously buzz our own cities with this technology for weeks on end raising the public hysteria day by day as evidenced by the 1947 newspapers. Also vacuum tube tech will not get you those speeds or maneuvers.

Not back then, or even today, does public science or technology have the answers to the obvious weight/mass problems that would rip apart even a small remote controlled device attempting to do so. These however were all full craft size.





edit on 12-6-2011 by A51Watcher because: the usual



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 02:39 AM
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With my first post here I would like to say that I do think that the espionage, Nazi/Russian link does make some sense. I read Annie Jacobsens book and I have also read Henry Stevens book titled Hitlers Suppressed and Still-Secret Weapons. Science and Technology. He also wrote a book about Nazi UFO's. There seemes to be a link that starts with the Nazi's and follows through our own space program with Werner Von Braun and through both books and Project Paperclip.

Previous to the Roswell incident that Jacobsen links to Stalin there was a sighting in Washington that started the modern UFO phenomenon. It seems as though there may have been a targeted effort by Stalin to enter U.S. airspace and alarm our government using captured Nazi technology that we did not have. The documentation and witness accounts in both books seem to point to earthly technology.

I do believe we are visited by extraterrestrials but it seems there may be a clear line from Germany to Area 51 and beyond. Jacobsens book and a subsequent T.V. documentary cover Area 51's early history extensively but we are not able to accurately document much else beyond the early 80's. There are obvious gaps but no smoking guns. Just my 2 cents but when I read her book it just seemed to hit me as the most likely answer at least to the beginnings of Area 51 and the UFO phenomenon.



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 03:03 AM
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reply to post by SrWingCommander
 


I'm also a bit surprised (but not really I guess) by what I found here on ATS about the man who broke the Area 51 story to the world - TV Newsman George Knapp:

People here act like they have or want facts about Bob Lazar... yet when presented with the chance to speak directly with someone who has spent more time than anyone investigating his story, I see basically tumbleweeds and crickets in response.

Here are a few examples, mostly 1 page, enlighten yourselves:

ATS link 1

ATS link 2

ATS link 3


Whats the matter ATS' ers? Did the cat have your tongue? Facts from the source leave no room for your esteemed pontification?

Even TODAY years later, I can STILL see the option to leave a reply or quote.

But on the other hand there are 10 pages of thread titles in response to search on the word Lazar. All FULL of self proclaimed experts who can't be bothered with the facts when presented in response by members educated on the facts and specifics. Even worse none could be bothered to read the facts directly from the source (or pretend they hadn't) and ask follow- up questions.

I even saw a question where one member asked "Has George ever said he believes Bob Lazar?"

Sigh. Proving right there he had not even seen the original week long broadcast on KLAS-TV in Nevada where all of the original evidence and testimony and video was presented, and also George was asked that exact question of whether he believed him. But yet of course this member still had an esteemed opinion on whether "Bob was telling the truth or not."


But thanks for trying ATS Staff, those were amazing opportunities and nice to see them up there.



edit on 12-6-2011 by A51Watcher because: the usual



posted on Jun, 30 2011 @ 04:44 PM
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i listen to mysterious universe podacst on the way to work regularly and they mentioned how surprisingly quick it was for the book to become an audiobook, so i got it and i can honestly say it has changed my perception of area 51, i have scrutinized the google earth overview of the base, and no one could dispute how wierd the set up of the base is, but nothing seems to show an extra terrestrial link, (although google as a company are MASSIVE and it wouldn't take much to say " were going to take arial photos, hide your planes ", after all didn't google p*ss china off recently? ) the only aspect of the base i have noticed that is suspicious is the runways didn't seem to have tyre marks off landing aircraft, like every other runway?
there's my rabble out of the way



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