Turkey warns Israel over new Gaza flotilla

Originally posted by Josephus23

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Kemal

 

So...a country legally created by the United Nations is regarded by *rational* people, as illegal???

Thats interesting logic.

I guess you could restate that sentence as

"all ignorant, irrational people regard Israel as an illegal state"

Israel was not created by the UN. It was created by a British Writ known as the Balfour Declaration.

The reason that people want to call it an illegal occupation is because Israel is in violation of the internationally recognized treaty that established its borders in 1967.
If it were not for the veto power of the USA in the security council of the UN, then this would be more widely known.

Ignorant is a powerful word.

May i ask a simple question based upon your assumption of global law ?

Does anyone have any thoughts about how this situation might relate to the Obama/Netanyahu standoff? I'm getting the impression that that whole thing is a sort of public performance and the true intentions lie somewhere else.

I get the feeling there's more afoot in all these situations than meets the eye, but I truly can't figure out what's going on. I'm not an expert on these things- but I get the feeling that the way is being paved for something I'm probably not going to like very much.

Many of you know and understand these things far better than I- what do you think?

reply to post by intrepid


And how arent they proactive?

Its also disconcerting that the UNs newly created humans right council has even been criticized by the US and Canada by spending the majority of its energy in criticizing Israel....Hello? Sudan, slave labor wages in china? And all we hear about is Israels abuses....... It is simply nonsensicle. It can be made sensible anymore. How is Israel committing human rights abuses? Is the Gaza strip not run by an autonomous government - Hamas? Does the IDF do anything to Arabs in the West Bank? No. The West Bank has their own police force. Arabs living in Israel proper have more rights and freedoms than in the whole Arab world.

I cannot make sense of these claims, or the obscenely innordinate attention directed against Israel. Much worse is happening elsewhere. In syria for instance. Hundreds have been killed by their government. The same government created by the French and supported by the West.. And ignored by the UN up until recently.

But Israel? since its creation is has been under the microscope.

Originally posted by seaside sky

Many of you know and understand these things far better than I- what do you think?

I am interested in reading your views. The outcome to me is apparent, but i am intrigued as to your personal thoughts.

reply to post by Josephus23


So the partition plan of '47 wasn't a UN initiative?

Israel already had a majority support in the UNs partition plan when they declared a stat in '48, making them a legal state.

As for '67. When another nation attacks you; and when the land that nation occupied was known in the past as Judea and Samaria, and indeed contains more relics and history of the Jews than all of the western porton of Israel assigned by the nations of the world to Israel, than im sorry, AFTER the attack, which was unprovoked, and after they lost that Jewish land like East Jerusalem - always known before that as old Jerusalem, ie; the Jewish Jerusalem, than they lost all claim. They took a risk, Jordan and Egypt in attacking Israel..

And even after Israel won the war, they give the entire Sinai peninsula, a land actually contiguous with the Negev and thus Israel, to Egypt. Thats not enough? they have to give back their ancient homeland aswell?

reply to post by seaside sky


Its probably gonna lead to a stalemate/non action by the quartet until September when Abbas and the PA has threatened they will unilaterally declare a state..

If that happens, expect war.

Thats what im predicting, or expecting. Hopefully not.

Originally posted by dontreally
How is Israel committing human rights abuses? Is the Gaza strip not run by an autonomous government - Hamas?

I'm glad you brought that up. Yes Hamas Is the ruling party in Gaza. Why? THAT is the pertinent question. My answer is that they have no choice. It boils down to Newton's 3rd law. "For every action there is and opposite and equal reaction." Israel, by extension of it's policy towards Gazans has created this schism.

Does the IDF do anything to Arabs in the West Bank? No. The West Bank has their own police force. Arabs living in Israel proper have more rights and freedoms than in the whole Arab world.

You need to check out more news from the area:

news.bbc.co.uk...

Fatah is bending over and taking it dry so as to not provoke the Israelis. I wouldn't call that bilateral cooperation. That's willing subjugation.

reply to post by musicbuff


Oh thank you. I wish I had some well-organized personal thoughts on it all- but I'm still in the stage of nebulous suspicions on this. I'll sure let you know if I come up with anything clear. What are your thoughts? You've really intrigued me- you seem to have some definite ideas and background info.

Please let me know!

reply to post by intrepid

I'm glad you brought that up. Yes Hamas Is the ruling party in Gaza. Why? THAT is the pertinent question. My answer is that they have no choice. It boils down to Newton's 3rd law. "For every action there is and opposite and equal reaction." Israel, by extension of it's policy towards Gazans has created this schism.

Why? because Hamas is pretty much controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, and so Hamas - who was democratically elected by Gazans (how is this Israels fault? They elected them. They wanted them....What Israel should have done if they cared about their own security is wipe Hamas out all together..but the world outcry would have been disastrous) is really just a continuation of a political philosophy that is found in the much larger Muslim Brotherhood...

Fatah is bending over and taking it dry so as to not provoke the Israelis. I wouldn't call that bilateral cooperation. That's willing subjugation.

Which is why a famly of 5 was killed in Itamar and the Palestinian police have done nothing to apprehend the killers? Which is why a Palestinian police officer was implicated in the murder of Yosef Ben Livnat - nephew of an Israeli Cabinet minister?

Link

And again. HOW is that news article evidence for "human rights abuses"?.... That shows nothing of the nature. It actually just proves how weak the argument is against Israel.

Are the hundreds of thousands of sufferring, enslaved black animists of Sudan really that unimportant? Cant the UN and world community invest their energy in a people actually sufferring? Or does the fact that its again an Islamic regime perpetuating this horror jeopardize the myth that "Islam is a religion of peace", that the western media so wants us to believe....

honor killings still occur within Palestinian communities. If you read this information on CNN you could be duped into thinking that the vast majority of Muslims 'protest' such killings...which isnt true. You cant recieve information from CNN without incurring a western bias. They would like all Arabs to think that way, but the fact is thy dont. Its been tradition for the last 1300 years in many Islamic lands for a daughter who profanes herself before marriage to be killed by her father or guardian. Do people understand that? Do they read books on Islam? or do they get their knowledge of Islam from CNN, or PBS specials?

Originally posted by dontreally
and so Hamas - who was democratically elected by Gazans (how is this Israels fault? They elected them. They wanted them....

There was NO other option for them. That is why they were elected.

What Israel should have done if they cared about their own security is wipe Hamas out all together..

There you go. You answered your own question as to why Hamas is in control of Gaza. Attitudes like this. Remember Newton. And don't give me stats from the Sudan, et al. That's just deflection for the human rights violations that Israel, NOT JEWS, have perpetrated on the Palestinians.

If you can't get past the propaganda, at least use logic. That won't steer you wrong. Neither will science.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Josephus23

 

So the partition plan of '47 wasn't a UN initiative?

Israel already had a majority support in the UNs partition plan when they declared a stat in '48, making them a legal state.

A Jewish Zionist state was created by British mandate and recognized by the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.
The orginal writ, which is known as the Balfour Declaration, was written to Lord Rothschild in 1917 from Arthur Balfour.

Once again, the Rothschilds and the Zionists rear their ugly heads.

Diaspora Jews lived in a state created out of Palestine by British Mandate until that mandate was set to expire in 1948. Prior to this termination, Zionists and Arab Nationalists were competing for control of the land.

It must be remembered that this land was not originally gained by Jewish Zionists due to the spoils of war, but the Allied Powers of WWI.
The British are singly responsible for the creation of Israel. Mainly due to the convincing hand of their personal bankers, the Rothschild family.

Resolution 181 of the UN General Assembly is most likely what you are referencing regarding the recognition of Israel as a state, but that would be incorrect.

Israel officially became a "state" on May 14, 1948 when they declared their independence, but the problem with this "declaration of independence" is that it did not specify where the newly declared Israel's borders would be found.
Because of the vague nature of this declaration, the Arab states felt threatened.

As I have stated, this land was given to Jewish Zionists by the British and not won by them.
Contrary to your insinuation, the Zionists did not win their land. It was taken from the Ottomans by the Allied Powers as a spoil of war and then given to the Zionists by the British.

We can argue the official borders all you would like, but the UN, NOW, which is very different than the UN THEN, has issued several declarations regarding the occupation of several territories by "Israel" as illegal in nature.

These declarations go un-noticed in the media due to the veto power that the USA holds in the UN securtiy council.

The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel is the sole product of the British Empire that is now underwritten by the American Empire, which are two heads on the same dragon.

That is history.

reply to post by Josephus23


Ya thanks Josephus. Youre not the only one who knows History. My book shelves are filled with such books.

As I have stated, this land was given to Jewish Zionists by the British and not won by them.

Right...

Ok. So the UN partition plan of 47 which was passed therefore made the state legal? Ok? So thats settled....

Now, since youre complaining about the "british" influenced by the rothschilds, 'creating' the state of Israel...how bout you and I explore this history further.

The initial british mandate that was to become a Jewish state included all of Modern day Jordan and Israel. That was 112,000 square kilometres. This 'chunk' which was based on the Biblical land of Israel was than drastically reduced after the British - oh, yes, the same British you complain about - created a state for Abdullah, a member of the house of Saud, called Jordan. So its ok for the British to create states for Arabs, but not Jews?

This land was then reduced further to just the western coastal portion of Palestine. This created the "Jewish settled areas" controlled jointly by the Jewish agency/British and the eastern part run by the British. The Western portion was a sliver of what was originally promised to the Jews. And to boot, only 30,000 Arabs lived in the western portion of the Jewish settled Palestine...

So the British created Iraq...Why no complaints? The British helped create Saudi Arabia through T.E Lawrence and Jack Philby..... Still no complaints? The British set up Yemen, the British set up the most fictitious state of all, the Lebanon....Sudan....The French - an ally power, created Syria... Algeria.

Why are there no complaints frm you for the Arab states the British helped setup? But only Israel? And as an added history, since youre Jewish history seems to be lacking, if it werent for the Jewish underground, the stern gang, and Irgun, the leftists led by weizman and Grion would have been satisfied with a British controlled Jewish province. It was the undergrond activity and terror against the British that got thm out of the country. His majesties government did not want a Jewish state, otherwise they wouldnt have created the white paper which limited Jewish immigration to a pathetic 15,000 a year at one point, therebye preventing the Jews from becoming the "majority" that the belfour declaration stipulated for a Jewish state to be declared.

What about the Altalena? The ship with 700 Jewish refugees from Nazi occupied Romania seeking Asylum? what did the British - the supposed 'friends' of the Jews, do? They redirected them to Turkey. After two months at port in istanbul, the ship was torpedoed (by an unknown party..though undoubtedly was the british) and 700 sufferring Jews, mostly children, were murdered.

The Brtish have always been the greatest enemies of the Jews, so to say they "created" the Jewish state, when really all they did was help in the beginning, only to stifle its manifestation in the end, is false.

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Vitchilo

 

1-Good. And Israel should Warn Turkey in return:

You send that flotilla and what happened before will happen again.



2-But for Israel? No. its not like Hamas - the terror organization - governs the Gaza strip....and its not like Israel asked kindly to ship whatever they have on the flotilla to the port of Ashdod first..... Nope. # Israel, we dont respect her, is what these pathetic assholes are saying.

1-bully talk, 'i'll huff and i'll puff..."

2-Hamas is a Creation of Mossad:

bonus:
a definition:

zionist: a member of the post WWII conspiracy by nazis operating under deep cover to bring about the extermination of the Jews and the complete erasing of Judaism and it's followers from history,
using the time-proven tactic:
if you can't beat them, join them, and subvert/destroy from within.

reply to post by intrepid

There was NO other option for them. That is why they were elected.

And why is that Israels fault?

You really like avoiding the ultimate questions, dont you.... Is it Israels fault that the muslim brotherhood thrives in Egypt? Is it Israels fault that the Gaza strip - former Egyptian terrirtory, and contiguous with Egypt, is full of the same types of people with the same fundamentalist Islamic beliefs and the same political philosophy... All this youre going to blame on Israel?

And youre telling me to use logic?

There you go. You answered your own question as to why Hamas is in control of Gaza. Attitudes like this. Remember Newton. And don't give me stats from the Sudan, et al. That's just deflection for the human rights violations that Israel, NOT JEWS, have perpetrated on the Palestinians

Attitudes like what? so.. i dont get what youre talking about now. First, you imply that Hamas being in control of Gaza is Israels fault. Now, youre criticizing me saying that Israel should have got rid of thm..

It appears youre giving Israel no way out. Its fail, Fail. Whatever they do, they fail. They cant get rid of Hamas, but their also responsible for Hamas.

reply to post by dontreally


I think that you might have misread my comment.

Nowhere did I state that the British were aligned with the Jews.
Or the converse as you have stated.

I explicity commented on the fact that the land was TAKEN from the Palestinians, or Arabs if you wish who were under the control of the Ottoman Turks,and given to the ZIONIST JEWS.
All done by the British Empire as a gift to Barron Rothschild.

Thus the Balfour Declaration.
I would quote the actual declaration for you but I feel confident that you are familiar with it.
(BTW...Several individuals who practice Judaism do not believe that the Jews have a claim to the land ascirbed to them by the Hebrew Bible. According to the prophecies of Judaism, the Jews cannot enter into the holy land until the return of their messiah. The messiah who will unite the original twelve tribes, ten of which are now unknown due to Assyrian invaders)

The only reason that the British set up Arab states is because the original mandate in question explicitly stated that the creation of a Jewish state was in no way to infringe upon the rights of the indigenous people of the region.
That would be the Arabs.

The same Arabs who now occupy the Gaza Strip.
The same Gaza strip that is now being blockaded by Israel.

With citizens being denied health care.
With children being held hostage in a land with NO HEALTH CARE.

And the same children dying because of....

a LACK OF HEALTH CARE.

And guess who is denying this?

The Zionists who were given the land by the British.
The same land that the British took as a spoil of war that was already occupied by Arabs.

All of these "Arab states" that the British supposedly "set up" (your words not mine) were already Arab.
The only aspect of these states that the British "set up" was the establishment of a government under British influence.

These Arabs were already on the land. They had been there for centuries.

The only claim that the Zionists have to the ARAB land is based on the Bible.

A book written by men, but claimed to be the holy word of God.

Well the Qu'ran is also written by men and claimed to be the holy word of God.
Which one is correct?

Bottom line:
The British took the land as a spoil of war. Land that did not belong to the them.
Now Zionists have been given the same land, land that does not belong to them.
And the same Zionists who contiually play the pity card for their previous sufferings ("the" holocaust, etc...) have assumed the role of empirical invaders inflicting the same damage upon the Palestinians as is claimed to have been inflicted upon them.

Uber-Hypocrites.

reply to post by Josephus23

BTW...Several individuals who practice Judaism do not believe that the Jews have a claim to the land ascirbed to them by the Hebrew Bible. According to the prophecies of Judaism, the Jews cannot enter into the holy land until the return of their messiah. The messiah who will unite the original twelve tribes, ten of which are now unknown due to Assyrian invaders

Its apt that you say "individuals" because they are literally that much in the minority.

Also, analyze that statement. They DO believe the holy land belongs to them, because they then go on to say "not until the messiah comes". These people are ultra literalists. They expect a Temple to fall down from Heaven and the Messiah to magically take over the world, as if there werent political realities to attend to. They are in the minority because their position is irrational.

Most Jews are on the side of Rabbi Avraham Isaac Kook, the founder or moreso reconciler of religious zionism.

Also, i take offense to your statement of "the british doing a favor for the zionists" as if the Jews of the Diaspora didnt want to return to their holy land even though their prayers are directed towards Jerusalem, and every passover they finish the Hagadah reading with "next year in Jerusalem"...

ALL Jews benefitted from the state of Israel, and not the secular zionists.

The only reason that the British set up Arab states is because the original mandate in question explicitly stated that the creation of a Jewish state was in no way to infringe upon the rights of the indigenous people of the region.

Which is why Iraq was created in 1932? and Lebanon? And Sudan? Eritrea? Kenya? None of these British created states have anything to do with the Palestinian Mandate. Only Jordan and Israel fit into that context. And even then, why was a prince of the HedJaz given a state hundreds of kilometers away? That basically means ALL of the middle east is in the general "Arab land", meaning, those "displaced" palestinians expecting their right to return should infact settle anywhere in the Arab world, where they would fit in like a glove.. Palestinian culture? Ha! Thats the fakest thing ever. You cannot distinguish the cultures of Jordanians, Syrians, or Palestinians from one another.... All Arabs share the same Language, Religion, and Culture.... How can you say the state was for the "zionists" when it was the Hebrew people, the Jews, with their distinct language, religion, and culture which emerged from this land so long ago?

With children being held hostage in a land with NO HEALTH CARE.

Many countries dont have universal healthcare... Are there health clinics, hospitals in the Gaza strip? Yes. There are.

A book written by men, but claimed to be the holy word of God.

And yet the majority of this book you imagine to be the work of men, has influenced the majority of mankind.

Really, its hard to separate this hate for israel from a hate for the Bible. I think they are one and the same. People hate Israel because they try to place thier claim to the land on the book of books.... And this irritates leftists/liberals, especially those new age types who finish their posts with 'namaste'...

Is it my fault you people are ignorant? This book has been the cornerston of western civilization for a reason. It is deeper then you think.

Well the Qu'ran is also written by men and claimed to be the holy word of God.

The irony is that Sura 5 21 actually justifies the Jews claim to the land of Israel....

[5:20] Recall that Moses said to his people (the Jews), “O my people, remember GOD’s blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people.
[5:21] “O my people, enter the holy land (Israel) that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers.”

Originally posted by Josephus23

These Arabs were already on the land. They had been there for centuries.

And jews have been there for millenia! Not all jews were in diaspora, as you seem to claim.

The only claim that the Zionists have to the ARAB land is based on the Bible.

BS! As I said, many jews were there ALREADY before the balfour declaration. Where do you think christianity evolved from? Where did islam evolve from? Where did judea evolve from? Hebrew? What were the holy crusades all about?

A book written by men, but claimed to be the holy word of God.

Well the Qu'ran is also written by men and claimed to be the holy word of God.
Which one is correct?

Probably neither.

Bottom line:
The British took the land as a spoil of war. Land that did not belong to the them.
Now Zionists have been given the same land, land that does not belong to them.
And the same Zionists who contiually play the pity card for their previous sufferings ("the" holocaust, etc...) have assumed the role of empirical invaders inflicting the same damage upon the Palestinians as is claimed to have been inflicted upon them.

Uber-Hypocrites.

You have a very distorted view of history, even mainstream history, which is plagued with errors. According to your twisted logic the palestinians have suffered just as much as the jews of ww2 and the jews during the roman empire.

Europeans, and especially the british, have colonised the entire planet and given land to whomever they desire. I don't see what the big deal is and why arabs want a monopoly in the middle east. I also don't see why everyone is literaly obssesed with this conflict and has allowed other conflicts to go unnoticed.

Something is not "right" and yes your a hypocrite.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by Kemal

 

Israel isn't a NATO member. Maybe by extension to the support that the US and UK give to them as allies but that's only 2 nations in NATO. As to a military exchange between Israel and Turkey. Israel can't compete without nukes.

History would disagree with you as to Israel's military strength. Turkey is as the region goes, a "tough customer" but they may find the fight on there doorstep a little much if push came to shove. Israel after all is equipped with advanced western military technology and know how.

I think Israels Carte Blanche has come to an end.

They have no friends in the world.

Play ball or suffer the consequences.

Cosmic...

reply to post by dontreally


I am not surprised to see your inconsistency, which is ubiquitous throughout Zionist beliefs.

The British did the Zionists a huge favor.
Good try on the appeal to emotion card, but if that offends you then I suggest thickening your skin.

If it were not for the British and the rapacious Rothschild dynasty, Israel would not exist.
(and we can't forget the USA)

Two factions exist within Judaism. Those that take the teachings of the Torah literally.
And those that take the teachings of the torah literally when it fits their desire.

The Christian faith once called these factions the Saducees and the Pharisees.
(I am not a Chrisitan. I like to understand things)

One group adheres to the letter of the law, while the other group relies upon rabbinical interpretations of the law.

If both groups believe that the "holy land" is theirs, because it says so explicitly in their Bible, then why does one maintain the letter of the law regarding the prophecy in question and the other disregard it?

And funny enough as well, the group that maintains the letter of the law are pacifists, while the other group are hell bent upon a genocide of the Palestinians.

Check out this link for an example.

As I have said, the land that was controlled in the Middle East by the Ottomans was taken as a spoil of war by the British, thus the number of Arab states set up by the British after the war.

This was the same modus operandi of the Roman Empire.
Self-governing states that were heavily influenced by Roman desires.

The only claim that the Zionists have to the "holy land" is found in their bible and that is all.

Simply because a group of people wish to have land that is claimed to have been occupied by them thousands of years ago is no reason for the genocide of the Palestinians.

The Zionists want to scream about the horrors of "the" holocaust or the inquisition, but yet they do the EXACT same thing to the Palestinians.

The logic is not congruent.