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Take Back the Noosphere!

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posted on May, 15 2011 @ 05:34 PM

Spinoza also struggled to use words to clarify the distinction. But he believe in both some form of free will, and determinism. I dont know if I can do any better than he.

To be fair, I'm not sure your man did so well with articulating the paradox himself:

Spinoza defines “free” and “necessary” (or “constrained”) in this manner: “That thing is called free, which exists solely by the necessity of its own nature, and of which the action is determined by itself alone. On the other hand, that thing is necessary, or rather constrained, which is determined by something external to itself to a fixed and definite method of existence or action.” (Ethics, Definition VII)

In other words, free will can only be expressed as an inner response to unalterable external circumstances. It doesn't strike me as correct, as our decisions have palpable and measurable effects upon the external world when expressed as action. After all, will can be boiled down to the capacity to make a decision or take an action. Predetermination is a cop-out.

There is more to free will than the ability to change circumstances. It changes the quality of the experience for you from one that is frantic and fearful and full of resistance, ( think of electrical resistance, how it causes voltage drop, and excess heat) to one in which life and intelligence itself is crisp and clear and "blissful," for lack of a better word. (The analogy would be superconductivity, no resistance)

Choices made while in a state of fright are inarguably terrible, hasty, and lizard-brained. I likewise think bovine capitulation to unpleasant circumstances as "the will of God" leads to equally poor decisions.

edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: quote mishap

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 05:55 PM
reply to post by mistermonculous

Your idea of free will requires time as an actual, not just as experienced. My experience of "absolute truth" and other mystic descriptions, (I checked after my own experience) do not show time as being "real" but instead as experiential. Because I am scientific minded, (my "mystic" experience just happened, it wasnt sought, and it caught me by surprise) I do consider the possibility that it was some kind of "brain fart."

However, checking it against the experience of others, (afterwards, I began to read in the mystic traditions to see what the hell that was all about) it is remarkably consistent with the reports of others. It also meets a couple "philosophic" tests of a "real" experience. Including being of something I had not previously had ANY experience, (non-duality, the test being that the imagination cannot actually create what it has not experienced, only frankenstein together that which it has,) and it passed the "dream" test as well. (Dreams being written loosely in memory and thus being discernable from "real" experience by how the memory treats them.

So, although I still remain open to the possibility that it was a brain fart, so far, the evidence stacks on the side of it being a genuine mystic experience. Whatever that means. And in it, several things were clear, including the fallacy of movement through time. Which had other implications, which are long, but which do line up nicely with what is said about the Bhagagva Gita about death and life. And what a silly thing it is to pretend to divide the two.

A movie appears to unfold in time. But in reality, lying in the can, it is already complete. It is predetermined as to every single event that will apparently "unfold" to the viewer. In this case, it is much more than one "track" through time which is in the can, so to speak, but every possible potential track is in the can. But still, nothing is "happening" because its always now, and nothing is really changing, although to consciousness in the illusion it seems that way.

Im not telling YOU what to think. Im just explaining to you why I dont share your thoughts. (In this apparent reality) to me, there is no difference in fact between the people seeing doom around the corner and those who want to prevent it. Both, as I see it, are mistaking an illusion for reality. One accepts it, in your theory, and one struggles to change it. My perception of what IS doesnt require or compel one to do either. It asks instead that you see past the illusion of "unfolding" to the unchanging state of that which IS behind the illusion and that you experience the movie fully, knowing you are safe in your seat.

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 06:07 PM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Ah! Thank you for clarifying. Here again, I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the nature of time. Unless you are experiencing an NDE or other sort of phenomena which seems to take place in a dimension where time no longer applies, we are very much subject to it's sequential nature. I think this is a double-edged sword: while we are subject to the limitations of time, I think it's our very capacity to experience and dwell within sequential time that gives us the unique ability to determine outcome.

I know quoting myself in a discussion is kind of a douchewaffle move, but believe I addressed this in part in an earlier post:

Data seems to indicate that the collapse of infinite probabilities into the "present" is a neurological function performed by us at a quantum level, and it is the collective "pressure" of all of us performing this process that forces time to behave like a river rather than an ocean. It is the collective "pressure" of consensus that determines which probability we choose. I believe this is an automatic function, but just as with heart rate and breath, this process is something we can learn to be conscious of.

edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: Gramamamamar.

edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: snip.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 06:15 PM
All interested Noonauts might want to check in here...

Something is in the Air.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 06:23 PM
reply to post by Frater210

Could you tell me what part I am looking at? I read the first page.

I do agree that you can/should rely on yourself, but I dont really feel much of a draw to the same old, "you create your reality" line that everyone else wanting to make a buck is pushing.

Am I missing something? (And I may well be, I dont have the kind of mind like likes drama and it tends to translate in my head like Charlie Browns parents, "waaa wa waaaaaa." )

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 06:41 PM

Originally posted by mistermonculous

I may or may not be getting your point, and please of course feel free to correct me, but I am pretty certain you are not really getting mine.

And Im really struggling to find a way to clarify it. So bear with me.

Part of the problem is you and I SEEM to look at who "we" are differently. I consider myself more like an avatar. Kind of like a video game character. So while I have an "identity" and an "existence" in this "game" (all metaphorical) Im not really the avatar, or the character. Im the consciousness outside the game, that experiences this game through the avatar.

So, just like in a game, the "rule set" in the game absolutely apply to my character. It is bound to those rules. It is totally locked in the construct of the game. But "I" as that consciousness, am not necessarily subject in any real way to those rules. If my character dies in game, I do not necessarily die out side the game.

So while "I" the avatar, am subject to the unfolding and linear nature of time, "I" as the consciousness outside the construct am not. Here the analogy of a human playing a game breaks down a little, because for humans, the game is made to mimic in many ways the outside reality. In the game of "life" its really quite different from what I believe to have experienced as "objective or absolute truth."

So yes, "we" are subject to time, but the whole thing is an illusion. What happens to the avatar does NOT have an impact on the "player" of the game.

Long ago, when I first played an MMO, it was PvP rules. And as a new player to MMOs I had never had a "real" human intelligence hunt me down and kill me. It was terrifying, even though I was safely in my seat. My heart was beating so hard, I was trying to run and getting hung up on things, and when the little bastard looted me and danced around on my corpse, I was really pained by the whole thing.

I might as well have gone through the thing in "real." I really did not enjoy it. And I almost quit. But over time, I actually came to enjoy the whole thing. All of it. Winning. Losing. Living. Dying. No matter. I loved it all. It was experience, and getting good was fun.

The difference? How much I identified with my avatar. It kind of like how much we identify with the ego. The less you do, the more fun the experience of "life" is. The more you do, the more you struggle and desperately try to preserve it.

My experience of God is not someone sitting behind a screen. "God" doesnt care. God is pure conscious intelligence experiencing itself in the eternal now. The reason to "change" is for us. The consciousness in avatar form, so that the illusion or game is not terrifying and hard, but exhilarating and flows easily. The change is not so we change the outcome of the game, but so that we enjoy the game no matter what the outcome.

All rather shoddy metaphor of course.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 07:04 PM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Ahhh, see, I'm not all right with the "avatar" notion of the incarnate self. Sure, I am Created, that doesn't mean I'm just a mask the Creator wears, it means I am a child. I was created to be a companion.

Also, it seems to me that video-game metaphors of any sort automatically undermine your point. Not just for the obvious reasons, i.e. juvenalia and escapism, but for the fact that inhabiting a virtual world with unalterable parameters is not a paradigm I am interested in indulging. Which is, I think, the essence of where we differ.

Thank you for the conversation, I found it very productive and invigorating.
edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: shpelling.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 07:20 PM
reply to post by mistermonculous

Thank you as well. It was the most eloquent way Ive been called juvenile and escapist all day.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 07:34 PM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

If I intended to call you juvenile and escapist I assure you I would have done so in plain language. Even if I did hold this impression of you (which I don't), I have no way of gauging those sorts of qualities simply by participating in a forum discussion with someone.

I am of the opinion that playing video games is a juvenile and escapist activity. I referred to that in explaining why even though I find the central concept you were articulating not to my liking, the form in which it was delivered certainly verges on the distasteful (to me).

edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: itali-clysm.

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 08:17 PM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Say, I really, really hope you won't take this poorly, as I have not once intended to insult you in our conversation, but I have an alternative interpretation of your NDE conversation.

And "God" laughed at me. And told me, "everyone has to die, just do it well."

What is implied here to me, is that the only set variable is death. Within the span between birth and death a great multitude of choices are to be made. How we meet death is entirely determined by the choices we make. Although life seemed to you to be a closed canister when removed from linear time, is it possible that your perception of timelessness might have clouded the true meaning of the message?

I would add that I fail to see any distinction between what is experienced and what "is", and I apply this concept to time. Simply because time is not experienced as a sequential phenomena in another dimension doesn't alter it's function in this dimension one jot. The adventure to be had is not just experiencing time as a series of events, but that in recognizing how by making choices, we are able to impact the "finished" narrative.
edit on 15-5-2011 by mistermonculous because: Stuff and things.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 01:35 AM
Very interesting. My views are very similar to yours. I saw the term "Noosphere" in the title and that caught my attention.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 05:17 AM
reply to post by mistermonculous

Interesting idea regarding making sigils, I've never heard of doing that before. Definitely going to go research it more.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 07:23 AM
Drum roll pleeeeeease!

Guys & Gals - here is my first sigil. It took ages, but the process is highly enjoyable and therapeutic. It's amazing to watch the transformations of shapes on the page; then there's the moment of reaslisation as you determine what the resulting form appears to represent!

Without further ado - The phrase being used was: 'That we shall be pure of mind...'

I'll put my whole 'statement of intent' into the next post; you'll see that I have a way to go as yet, before my 'sigil string' is completed... I'll also add in some photos of the various development stages so that all who would like to replicate with their own statements can get a feel for what's involved...

Here's the finished article:


*** *** *** *** *** ***

So - whaddya think?

My first 'in process' thoughts on the shape that was developing was: 'Seahorse'.

My first free association from that thought was the album entitled "Love is the Law" by the former member of the Stone Roses, John Squire (who went on from Stone Roses glory in the mid-nineties to form a band called, funnily enough, "the Seahorses").

As a teenager I loved some of their tracks, and used to sing them in an informal rock band, constituting me and a couple of mates...

As the embellishments progressed, it became clear (to me) that this is a sort of 'Dragon' - perhaps drawing a sword...

(NB - noting the input from Frater2010 above made my heart skip a beat!!)

I'm pleased with the result - and it becomes easy to see why this is such a practical form of retraining your mind to think in new and positive ways. While the work is in progress, your mind is constantly reaffirming the statement of intent, both consciously and subconsciously.

Now, as I look at the finished sigil, I see a noble dragon, drawing a sword to vanquish those demons afflicting us with doubts, poor choices and inappropriate modes of thought! It works!


(... ** Or, if you prefer, 'Practical Mind Entrainment'...)

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 09:48 AM

Nobody seen my sigil? I feel all invalidated and whatnot.

LOL sorry, I know this is pathetic!!!

Maybe it's a test of my immature need for validation; the universe is telling me to get over myself already!!

Anyways - it's all good.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 10:44 AM
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

I sees it! I likes it very much!

I see a seahorse as well, but I'm partial to the critter.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 10:51 AM
Here you go my friends.

My new contribution.

ATS The Time Is NOW! Stop The Fear!!

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 11:19 AM
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

I think its a very nice sigil. It would make a very attractive tattoo if one were the tattooing kind.
edit on 16-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 01:47 PM
Imagine a society where everyone meditates and group meditation is a fundamental building block of society. Learn about the the Maharishi effect.

Learn to see the positive/light in the dark, there is polarity to it all, all truths are but half truths. Imagine the positive. Feel the principle of polarity, learn to flip the switch to ON/positive/light/love.

One world government? Good, one step closer to no borders and no nations, united as humans on earth.
One currency society? Good, the currency will not be from debt, all resources are available to all.
Population reduced to 500m? Good, the maharishi effect will be easier to achieve.
Architects of control? Good, thanks for pointing out exactly where I need to be free.

If we had 7b people all practicing meditation and imagining the positive. The change this would bring are almost unimaginable in how beautiful the earth would become. So imagine everyone in the world meditating on love and compassion.

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:04 PM
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

My wife wants me to get it tattooed on my arm... Might well do it! Though I'd reserved my right arm for a copy of my avatar, in full technicolour.. That way, when the SHTF, fellow ATSers (who I have no doubt will be amongst the survivors) will know who I am, and that I can be trusted!

ETA - though of course, if this experiment works, we may never hit the fan at all!

edit on 16-5-2011 by FlyInTheOintment because: per ETA

posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:05 PM
reply to post by mistermonculous

Thanks! Do you think it measures up, as sigils go? I went in blind, just following the instructions in the OP.. Didn't actually check any sigils at all before starting...

Are you going to post a sigil, or did I read a couple pages back that you changed your mind?

There I go again, seeking validation at the expense of dignity!!!

edit on 16-5-2011 by FlyInTheOintment because: per ETA

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