Do you really want to achieve enlightenment?

Originally posted by pepsi78
Enlightment as I see it, is giving up the self, the easy way to Enligtment is renouncing the self, loosing of emotions, feelings, the self. So as I see it Enlightment comes at a cost. As I call it it's paying with the self to get enligtment like a product. Eventualy 100% enlighted people have no feelings at all, the contrary to the self "the spirit". I like to call it the forge, where the spirit melts away and out of it comes enlightment, knowlege.

There is a way to have bolth, the self and enligtment no easy way. It's where god steps in and becomes a teacher.
Fast enligtment is the work of men, and it's a fast way to perdition and mochery of the holy spirit.
As many people like Jesus said, the kingdom of god is inside of you, some consume it to gain enligtment, and it's gone forever.

edit on 8-5-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

Hi and thanks for your comment. i once understood things in this light aswell. that an enlightened person is no better than a phsycopath, a robot with no emotions etc.
however this is not the case.
To be enlightened is not to become some devoid of humanity. Instead it is to become your original version of humanity.
in short we were born human, with feelings and knowledge of how to be human. this knowledge gets buried and forgotton because everyone who teaches us how to "be" teaches only what they were taught.
its kind of like a computer before you install the operating systme. the only thing is human beings already have an operating systme installed from birth but it gets overriden by windows etc.
to prove my point think of this.
if you throw a baby into the water the baby already knows how to swim.
but if you leave the child to be taught how to swim, it will take many lessons.
and if you have an adult how never saw water, by the time he falls over board he will flounder and drown.

How do you guys think of "keeping such things personal"? Not to be egocentric and keeping it for yourself alone, but more in a way of the "free-will" thing. I think that if someone doesn't want to, that person don't have to do it.

reply to post by notimportant


well it sounds like a joke but i will take you at your word. talisman? as in some kind of trinket or reward, you wear around your neck? Like a crusafix perhaps haha. That would imply there is a power structure over people who gain insight...is this your implication? Well of course there is no such structure. you dont get invited to all the best parties afterwards.

reply to post by splitlevel


At some random day I found at my appertment block a talisman with an horus eye on it and writings in Latin, which meaned something like "every human is the architect of his own life", days before I was reading about Egyptian gods and mythology.

I'm sorry but I don't know all the English words since I'm Dutch, I also could have called it "necklace" or "amulet" now I think of it.

Originally posted by notimportant
How do you guys think of "keeping such things personal"? Not to be egocentric and keeping it for yourself alone, but more in a way of the "free-will" thing. I think that if someone doesn't want to, that person don't have to do it.

Im not exactly sure of your question but will try to answer anyway. I do not put myself up to be a prophet or any nonsense like that and would not usually discuss matters which are personal, but as I am not giving my real name etc, i can try to share some insight without trying to promote myself.

Originally posted by splitlevel

Originally posted by notimportant
How do you guys think of "keeping such things personal"? Not to be egocentric and keeping it for yourself alone, but more in a way of the "free-will" thing. I think that if someone doesn't want to, that person don't have to do it.

Im not exactly sure of your question but will try to answer anyway. I do not put myself up to be a prophet or any nonsense like that and would not usually discuss matters which are personal, but as I am not giving my real name etc, i can try to share some insight without trying to promote myself.

That pretty much sums it up

reply to post by splitlevel

You made a good point with the operating system, the only problem with enligtment that I see is that it will format everything, enligtment is more then a lesson, it's a metaphisical state of mind, a stage where you understand things in a different way. The way I see it it's loosing that special touch that makes you and defines you, you spirit, you loose it.

A blank system without any programs running is a zombie, we get born with an OS and have built in feautures.
A blank system is prone to indoctrination, lessons for zombies, how to learn to..... If there is no OS installed and there is no program running then you find anything acceptable that is fed to you.

There is a very short line between brainwashing and enligtment. It's a very good tool for soldiers for example, think of soldiers not asking questions, just doing what "OS" they have installed after they have been brainwashed.

Originally posted by iksose7

i tried explaining to some people

Could you explain to us? What is your view of life? Your view of the bigger picture?

Ok. I will try to make it short.
before you were alive did you fear death? No. But you feel like you have always been here.
People fear death because the cant comprehend not being alive, yet for allmost all eternity they were not alive and this does not worry them.
You can accept this as fact and truth because it is undisputable.
if we feel like we have always been around, maybe we have been, once again its fact that the atoms that make our bodies and brains up have always existed along with the atoms of everything else and they will go on existing after our bodies have, shall we say, been recycled into other things.
So it is fact and comforting to know in some part physically we are eternal.
now as far as our soul goes.
The feeling we have of always existed would indicate that there may be a soul.
Also if we are to consider believeing any holy books like the bible, we can see that the soul is pure and eternal.
We can also conclude that if heaven is perfection and that souls go to heaven then we as people will have no knowledge of it.
This is because we all have ego's and even on this thread, you can see dissagrements where ego's clash, including my own of course.
So if heven is perfection ego's/personalities do not get in. So if anyone is holding out to meet their lost ones up in the sky, I doubt that will be the case. because even very good and great people have flaws in their personalities and if every nice personality even, got into heaven, there would still be rivalries. this makes it that in my view, if there is an eternal after life, i hightly doubt we will realise we are experiencing it, because we wont be experiencing it as humanbeings experience this world.
So to me, its irrelivent if there is an afterlife as far as earning good deeds to obtain entry to it.
having said this, I do believe in christian and buddhist principals, not because i want to earn points but because i feel human and at peace for living a good life and helping where i can. Also i must add that i believe what christians know as heaven and hell are conditions of the mind whilst we are still on the earth. An hour is eternity if your in suffering. So you cant imagine or comprehend what a lifetime of conditions like bi-polar disorder or scitsofrenia would be like to live in and could be considered as a living hell, which would feel eternal in our perception, in my opinion. And I would also add that if hell is a condition of the mind, then so is heaven, which I may have experienced for a few seconds, something I discuss in my other thread.

Originally posted by notimportant
How do you guys think of "keeping such things personal"?

I can asure you that I'm not here to brag about it, or show off in any way, it's would not be me. We are having an open debate on this, we are on ATS so I do not know what is bothering you. I got involved in this debate because so many people suffer from this, and loose it after doing something, it could be some excercise, or some form of meditation, and they get lost and they loose touch with reality. It's serios some just die from this, they commit suicide so it's this serios. This is the new religion with get enligtment and kill your self, new age stuff.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by splitlevel

 

You made a good point with the operating system, the only problem with enligtment that I see is that it will format everything, enligtment is more then a lesson, it's a metaphisical state of mind, a stage where you understand things in a different way. The way I see it it's loosing that special touch that makes you and defines you, you spirit, you loose it.

A blank system without any programs running is a zombie, we get born with an OS and have built in feautures.
A blank system is prone to indoctrination, lessons for zombies, how to learn to..... If there is no OS installed and there is no program running then you find anything acceptable that is fed to you.

There is a very short line between brainwashing and enligtment. It's a very good tool for soldiers for example, think of soldiers not asking questions, just doing what "OS" they have installed after they have been brainwashed.

Im glad there is some discussion going. thanks for contributing.
as I have said before babies know how to swimm its only when you teach people to swim that it becomes difficult and unnatural.
You have a programme written into your genes, if you like you may say God wrote it. How can a spider make a web?
this is zen, to realise yourself and that your ego is not real, just a mask we have made to navigate in civilization and society. A clever man has many masks and knows none of them are his real face.

edit on 8-5-2011 by splitlevel because: grammer

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by notimportant
How do you guys think of "keeping such things personal"?

I can asure you that I'm not here to brag about it, or show off in any way, it's would not be me. We are having an open debate on this, we are on ATS so I do not know what is bothering you. I got involved in this debate because so many people suffer from this, and loose it after doing something, it could be some excercise, or some form of meditation, and they get lost and they loose touch with reality. It's serios some just die from this, they commit suicide so it's this serios. This is the new religion with get enligtment and kill your self, new age stuff.

It doesn't bother me at all, it was a normal question not an insult (I'm not American or English so it is a bit hard for me to express myself). Let me explain, for example: in Christian teachings there is written that you shall tell the "good news" to others, just an example right?. I think that it is good to talk about thing of this matter (enlightment), but only when people are interested in it and asking for it, the mistake most religious types made is that they are forcing their opinion onto others.

reply to post by splitlevel


Here is my story, posted before in another thread:

Short after it i decided to make a second trip (i was on a world trip short before) to switzerland visiting a friends grave and make a pilgrim to Sitten, a little village called "Sion" before .... (My swiss friend stated this pilgrim is his last will for me...).
When there i went into a priory and had a night long talk with the prior... After that he invited me to have a meditation session in a cristalcave on the near mountain (what was normally only allowed for the monks but i thought my friend has made the ways for me...)

I did. And it was the most sacred moment i have had (til now!).
First it was a very amazing place. Crystals all over the cave and a view over the mountainworld of Jura.

There was a little shrine in the back and a place to sit in front of it. Candles all around, a small fire place and firewood. First day was more about exitement about this ""find" and i wasn´t able to get the concentration to come into a meditative state as usual. But early in the morning a monk came in and brought me some food and fresh water. I asked him if he did this here and if he has tips for me. He just grinned and went away.
I was confused...
The second day i started to meditate, viewing to the shrine. It was just normal as everytime and as i had no instructions i did it as usual. Concentrating on a certain symbol or point to get the full focuss on it. But nothing special happened... I started over and over again but no efforts...
(As i am not religious i felt a bit uncomfortable with the shrine, anyway...)

Next day the monk plus another one came again and brought me more food than the day before and more fresh water.
I told him about my disbelief in christian symbols and asked him again if he had some tip for me.
This time he talked: "First, all the christian symbolics represent a knowlege that is far beyond of what you are thinking they are. And second, don´t focuss on the shrine. It is your backing. Expand your view. Expand your conciousness to everything that is..."
Then he went away, grinning.
Okay, i would give it a try. I turned around to the opening of the cave and this time i blended out all the symbols and else...
I expanded my consious mind from a little point of concentration to my body (did that before, tho it was merely easy), then i expanded it to the crystal cave. I felt a resonance i never felt before. It was a special kind of vibrating and i had a vision of a few, maybe a hundred monks that where doing the same as i did.
Most of them seemed to have same visons like i had in this very moment but i felt that they have failed. But there where two that where other. i felt a kind of happyness and light streaming through them and after they had this they, where jumping up and where running down the mountain. Happy.

I tried to focuss on their happenings but it vanished few times, when i tried.
Tho i had a hint. There was something to them i had to figure out. I slept in.

Next day i woke up early (as usual with the first sunrays) and i thought i got it. I ate a bit of bread and and started to meditate. I quickly came to the situation from the day before and i tried to enter the akasha chronicles (did it before) for this place, but shortly i noticed it was a dead end. Tho after a quick lunch i started again at the point of expanding my view. my conciousness embodied my body then the cave. Then i expanded to the mountain i was in. i saw the world around like i am the mountain itself! and then i came quick. I embodied the whole viewing field, the whole countryside the whole continent the whole earth, the moon, the other planets, the whole solar system, galaxy, all the other ones, the whole!
I was one with everything! I was happy! I was ... LOVE!
It stayed for a moment and then it went in reverse, but like i was seeing it starting from the beginning to today! Wow! It was amazing!
I just wanted to run down to the prior and tell him everything i undergone but there was a stopping feeling inside i couldn´t explain. So i followed it. I drank a tea and tried to understand what i just have expirienced but it was too much. I felt asleep.
I think i have slept for a whole day, when i was waked up by the monk. I tried to explain to him what i have encountered but i couldnt describe it well. But he just grinned and said: "Now you have to let your ego go! You have entered the one. You know how it goes. You are very talented. my prior said it to me, you will be different. yes you are! Go on. do the next!"
And i did. err... i just see i have not enough space to desribe it in one post tho i try to shorten it...
The next day i didnt do anything as i had to figure out what just was happening to me. I felt connected to this supreme source, i felt connected to everything around me and much more i felt... the energies flowing! ( Kinda like neo in matrix at the one scene!)
I... no there was no i anymore! I couldnt remember anything out of my life, but it was irrelevant i was one with everything! No i just was!

Well to make it short in the next two days i was going through a transcendention of myself. I felt i wasnt I anymore i was more my higher self that started to create a new ego for me. This is now what I am. Memorys came back but they aren´t important for me anymore (more for others to have something to tell to them).
...

So since this time i felt to be in harmony with nature and it provided me everything i needed.
I AM HAPPY!

Peace, love and light,
let u guide by higher i

Jim

I also want to say, before I forget.
people, in general, i think, look at heaven as a meeting place, whenre you will find your loved ones. this idea is not what I believe heaven is meant to be. If we met our loved ones again, heaven would be no different to earth, afterall do we not argue and fight even with our loved ones? perhaps we fight with those we love most of all. So why would it be any different in heaven, atleast in the popular portrail of heaven.
thats the funny thing. the popular conceprtion of heaven is that we carryon as we are and maybe we have transparrent bodies like ghosts or something but in essesnce we carry on as the bickering, selfish people we are.
Well that makes no sense at all.
If there is a heaven the only thing going there is our soul and it has no mind.
This was part of my enlightenment.
to have no mind may sound scary, but I believe there is something far greater beyond what we know as mind. Once you practice and turn off the background noise, you may get a glimpse of it.
i believe I may have had a glimpse of this for perhaps 5 seconds. but i was not prepared, it was that overwhelming and i cant describe how it felt, other than perhaps a bolt of lightening hitting me through the top of my head, other than to say it came unexpectedly and i have never felt such a force of pure bliss, no physical experience could ever come near to it. Once this happened it made the idea of chasing happiness through the material world pointless.

reply to post by splitlevel


Originally posted by JimIrie
Here is a little zen story about enlightment (i posted in part 1 of my thread series down in my sig) that i think fits very nice:

Once there was a young zen monk walking on a street up to a temple on a mountain. Then an old monk with a big bag of rice on his shoulders came down the street towards him.
The young monk asked him kess: "Old monk, i see you gained enlightment, how does it feel?" The old man stopped, but said nothing. He just took the ricebag of his shoulders, sat him down at the street and looked at him.
The young monk was a bit confused as he didn´t answer, but then... ... he understood!
He now asked, " old monk i understand, but what comes after enlightment?" The old monk took his ricebag back on his shoulder and went on...

Thought this would fit in here, too

reply to post by JimIrie


Thanks for the contribution Jim. you could say that God split himself into billions of pieces and became living things, each living thing was full of dillusion and did not remember they were all one thing and refused to believe it and chose instead to believe that they were their own god and seperate from eachother in essence not just form.

reply to post by splitlevel


Right!
But not only living things. All things that are!

For those of you who have built an image for yourselves as mystic travellers and are convinced thats who you are, then the idea of waking up may be quite a disturbing one.

Seems to be pretty common, I think the OP nailed this one.

Most of the "enlightened" are so full of ego, they don't do a very good job of hiding it either.

Which is fine, since we all have ego, the irony is how little they seem to see that in themselves, once they have labelled themselves "enlightened".

I continue to have a great admiration for Socrates, considered so "wise", and yet who understood that he still really "knew" nothing.

Maybe honestly knowing that we just don't know, is "enough" somehow.

JR

reply to post by JimIrie

"Life is what it is!"
you can tell someone who searches for meaning this and they do not accept it because its to simple for them.
It may frustrate them as it would have frustraited or angered me to be told such a simple statement, with no apparent meaning to it or even it can be seen as a dismissive cop out, as I would have once seen it.
but this is Zen. Once someone experiences the simplicity of truth and how emptiness and everything are all the same thing, when your sences literally tune into to this reality. You instantly accept it.
then a simplistic statement like "life is what it is" takes on a whole new meaning.

Originally posted by JimIrie
reply to post by splitlevel

 

Right!
But not only living things. All things that are!

Yes, of course all things, but rocks, sand, grass and water are not full of dillusion about what they are.

Maybe honestly knowing that we just don't know, is "enough" somehow.

JR

I agree. it makes me laugh when people hold up the likes of Stephen Hawkins as some kind of super intelligent being.
only a fool would be arrogant enough to think he could understand the workings or an eternal and infinate universe. Every discovery leads to a thousand more questions and yet he will outsmart the universe or God.
Socrates was far wizer to know the truth.