Do you really want to achieve enlightenment?

I will try to be brief in my answer as I need to run errons shortly .
what you call a closed mind, i call living in denial of the world you live in

I'm sorry but that is what innocence is.

As far as innocent...as soon as a child knows its around other people it develops an ego.

You have no understanding of the ego. Your ego is your good part your bad part, it is everything you feel.

It's why it's called "EGO" Ego from EMOTION. E stands for emotion and go from motion. So it's Emotion on the go, your ego. It's what the word implies. People have transformed the Ego into this vilified thing, it's not, it's the inisde of your self. Grown ego does not mean evil, people with grown ego may even develope sensibility above others, as into their emotions and feelings.

No ego = no feelings, you are a walking talking robot.

Something else Id like to add.
Its not just people who are diluded, domesticated animals are aswell.
Its funny..but you may have noticed your dog, for instance, how it has an ego, jets jealous if you dont show it attention etc.
A dog I know is like this...its been around humans, so it acts emotional as we do.
If I go to take it for a walk it gets all excieted and jumps up and down...the thing is the dog is already sitting outside and can walk itself but doesnt. i am in a rural place, so dogs can do as they wish pretty much.
Also if I stop to feed a horse an apple the dog goes bananas as my attention is no longer on the dog.
thats just a domesticated animal.
people have over domesticated themselves to where is now a distructive force, this ego business and its constantly being reinforced in this society especially.

Originally posted by pepsi78

I will try to be brief in my answer as I need to run errons shortly .
what you call a closed mind, i call living in denial of the world you live in

I'm sorry but that is what innocence is.

As far as innocent...as soon as a child knows its around other people it develops an ego.

You have no understanding of the ego. Your ego is your good part your bad part, it is everything you feel.

It's why it's called "EGO" Ego from EMOTION. E stands for emotion and go from motion. So it's Emotion on the go, your ego. It's what the word implies. People have transformed the Ego into this vilified thing, it's not, it's the inisde of your self. Grown ego does not mean evil, people with grown ego may even develope sensibility above others, as into their emotions and feelings.

No ego = no feelings, you are a walking talking robot.

ill get back to you later, but i think your misunderstanding me anyhow....perhaps you want to carryon misunderstanding as it fulfills your paradigm, so discussion may be futile with you. only you know that one but you keep posting, so I think your getting closer.

Originally posted by splitlevel
Something else Id like to add.
Its not just people who are diluded, domesticated animals are aswell.
Its funny..but you may have noticed your dog, for instance, how it has an ego, jets jealous if you dont show it attention etc.

Jealousy is part of the ego yes, it's a feeling, but so kindness from the heart, and your ability to feel sorry for others, it's also part of the ego. There is a big difference between correcting the ego and getting rid of your ego.
Like some say, your inflated ego, let's get rid of it, but you find that is not a solution as you want to get rid of the bad parts out of your ego so you get rid of your ego (emotions)

Just to name a few , Jealosy, Kindness, crying, sympathy, joy, anger, are all part of the ego, they are your emotions, it's what the ego is. I mean how can you live without that to the maximum, I understand in limiting it, but to get rid of your ego would make your self make you want to kill your self. Imagine no excitment in your life at all, your this freak that does not feel anything at all.

I understand the need for free will, but our feelings is what make our life interesting.
It's what they do, they get rid of the ego, and then they teach others how to do it, telling them they become free by doing it so they can accive enligtment. It's at this step where you renounce all your innocence, where you give it up, that is the equivalent of no ego at all, and if it's the future of humanity it's an ugly one.

I've come to the conclusion that enlightenment cannot be attained while living in normal society. Or at least, would be unearthly in difficulty. Perhaps, one could take a vacation of sorts and work hard at it in the proper setting, buddhist temple, alone in nature for lengthy periods of time just meditating, but it's not like you could hold that down and a job is what I'm saying.

How I wish I could attain enlightenment, I've been looking for it ever since I dipped my foot in the pool with an unmentionable item. Someday, when I have the time, I will dedicate my life to it, but until then, I will continue to hit my head against a wall... As apparently, there is nothing to really understand about enlightenment, except that there is nothing to understand about enlightenment. Ya...

A lot of back-and-forth here throwing around the term "ego".

It looks as if people define it differently, which only means you might be talking apples, while the other guy is talking oranges.

Sigmund Freud is generally given credit for introducing that term, and if you take his ideas, at least as a starting point, maybe some agreement can be reached.

First, not to get too picky, but the "E" in ego has nothing to do with "E-motion", sorry, just had to say. Don't take my word for it, look it up, but at the most basic level, ego means "I", or the "name" we call ourselves. So, that means the ego is more like our "self", or at least our concept of our self, or identity (not to be confused with the Id).

Is our self-image ever "correct"? Probably not, but then, that's the real issue I guess, "enlightenment" perhaps not exactly grasping the "secrets of the universe", but rather, at least preliminarily, seeing our true "place" within it.

And since people seem to enjoy throwing around the term ego, well, the other two Freudian notions can't be far off, that is, the id, and the super-ego. They all go together. Not that they are "reality", but they have been regarded as more or less useful constructs for almost a hundred years, and aren't really independent of each other.

Well, enough out of me. Carry on!

JR

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by splitlevel
Something else Id like to add.
Its not just people who are diluded, domesticated animals are aswell.
Its funny..but you may have noticed your dog, for instance, how it has an ego, jets jealous if you dont show it attention etc.

Jealousy is part of the ego yes, it's a feeling, but so kindness from the heart, and your ability to feel sorry for others, it's also part of the ego. There is a big difference between correcting the ego and getting rid of your ego.
Like some say, your inflated ego, let's get rid of it, but you find that is not a solution as you want to get rid of the bad parts out of your ego so you get rid of your ego (emotions)

Just to name a few , Jealosy, Kindness, crying, sympathy, joy, anger, are all part of the ego, they are your emotions, it's what the ego is. I mean how can you live without that to the maximum, I understand in limiting it, but to get rid of your ego would make your self make you want to kill your self. Imagine no excitment in your life at all, your this freak that does not feel anything at all.

I understand the need for free will, but our feelings is what make our life interesting.
It's what they do, they get rid of the ego, and then they teach others how to do it, telling them they become free by doing it so they can accive enligtment. It's at this step where you renounce all your innocence, where you give it up, that is the equivalent of no ego at all, and if it's the future of humanity it's an ugly one.

Ok. its going round in circles now but as far as i see empathy/love is the true self. isnt this the classical teaching. everything else ontop of empathy, the emotions you mention are counter to empathy...your emotions generally override your empathy for others. if your now going to say you feel empathy for some people and not others then that isnt what Jesus/buddha said. your supposed to feel empath for everyone, people judged good and bad by society and people who have done you wrong. Jesus loves sinners most remember. So i disagree with your assesment. Once you see through the delusion yourself, you understand why people behave like idiots, not everyone but a lot of people. then you can forgive people for their behaviour...let things go and move on. That doesnt mean forgining people is letting them back into your life to damage you. That would be stupidity not forgivness .

Originally posted by sliceNodice
I've come to the conclusion that enlightenment cannot be attained while living in normal society. Or at least, would be unearthly in difficulty. Perhaps, one could take a vacation of sorts and work hard at it in the proper setting, buddhist temple, alone in nature for lengthy periods of time just meditating, but it's not like you could hold that down and a job is what I'm saying.

How I wish I could attain enlightenment, I've been looking for it ever since I dipped my foot in the pool with an unmentionable item. Someday, when I have the time, I will dedicate my life to it, but until then, I will continue to hit my head against a wall... As apparently, there is nothing to really understand about enlightenment, except that there is nothing to understand about enlightenment. Ya...

Like I said enlightenment is held up as something is isnt...all it really is is to understand your actions and why you do them and then you have a choice in how you act, once you realise it is all an act.

"I dipped my foot in the pool with an unmentionable item" Now you got me curious..its an anonimous message board so spill.#

by the way your avatar cracks me up, where is that taken from?

Originally posted by JR MacBeth


Is our self-image ever "correct"? Probably not, but then, that's the real issue I guess, "enlightenment" perhaps not exactly grasping the "secrets of the universe", but rather, at least preliminarily, seeing our true "place" within it.


JR

I agree ...thats all it is really. people cant accept the simple answer though usually, but i would say that you can hear this message all your life and still not clicck with it.
So id say that the clicking bit, as in the feeling of knowing, is the enlightening part of it. you can live by this simple philosiphy and still not feel that its right for you, but if it clicks with you, then you know its right for you. thats all id add.

Judgement is either based on reality or illusion. Those who base their judgments on reason and logic are more intelligent than those who base their judgement on illusions. With that said, enlightenment is not a "choose your own adventure" that is reserved for the level of Karma, in which all actions have necessary reactions. Sure, choose your own adventure, be your own moral teacher, but you will also get the retroactive karma of those actions. Enlightenment is transcending karma through the purification of the soul by viewing the truth of all things.

Originally posted by filosophia
Judgement is either based on reality or illusion. Those who base their judgments on reason and logic are more intelligent than those who base their judgement on illusions. With that said, enlightenment is not a "choose your own adventure" that is reserved for the level of Karma, in which all actions have necessary reactions. Sure, choose your own adventure, be your own moral teacher, but you will also get the retroactive karma of those actions. Enlightenment is transcending karma through the purification of the soul by viewing the truth of all things.

I dunno about karma.
my take on karma is "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword", unless the guy using the sword is a phsycopath.
What I mean is only people who feel empathy and know they have hurt people will live to regret their actions, as in guilt.
thats my take on karma, if you dont feel empathy you have no fear of karma.
if your talking about karma following you into reincarnation, then i cant discuss that as i have no idea if thats real.
if i were to state anything like that without proof id be full of #.

Just wanted to expand a point...
if the true self is empathy/love and we all share empathy buried under the other emotions, unless we lack that part of the brain like a phsycopath.
then the empathy in me is the same empathy in you etc
therefore if two people are "enlightened" they pretty much are the same person.
They can understand there really is no uniqiness based on likes/dislikes and opinions.
Yes they will still have ego, but both people will know what their ego is, a tool, a facade and largley an act.
So if one person made a joke at the other persons expense, both would find it funny.
thats my take on enlightenment.
its just accepting that society is a game and we are all playing the game whilst we live in it.
the moment you believe the character you play is for real, then you might wind up losing your mind.



"dont take yourself to seriously" its a very zen expression really

enlightment isn't anti-money and such. Being enlightened means you have grown into society. That's how enlightment should go. There are too many confusions spread around. God wishes the best in peoples lives and nurtures them. It is to not stand yourself in the way for material possessions. Enlightment means detachment of the material world but it doesn't mean you may not use and live in it. There may be riches in an enlightened mans life.

The world is what one gets when enlightened. The world plays a role in life. Stand open for wealth. Wealth is what comes to an enlightened man. This wealth is the gratitude to the man. Love money. Noone should judge another by it. Very good people have very much money and are placed in positions with wealth. Ego thinks not. Ego disconnects a person from the wealth and all that comes with enlightement. If enlightement means you should leave the world behind then you better die, don't you? We need the world. Do not judge another. There is many confusion around about what being enlightened means.

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
enlightment isn't anti-money and such. Being enlightened means you have grown into society. That's how enlightment should go. There are too many confusions spread around. God wishes the best in peoples lives and nurtures them. It is to not stand yourself in the way for material possessions. Enlightment means detachment of the material world but it doesn't mean you may not use and live in it. There may be riches in an enlightened mans life.

The world is what one gets when enlightened. The world plays a role in life. Stand open for wealth. Wealth is what comes to an enlightened man. This wealth is the gratitude to the man. Love money. Noone should judge another by it. Very good people have very much money and are placed in positions with wealth. Ego thinks not. Ego disconnects a person from the wealth and all that comes with enlightement. If enlightement means you should leave the world behind then you better die, don't you? We need the world. Do not judge another. There is many confusion around about what being enlightened means.

I may enjoy worldy things, as like you say, im in the world, but I dont love any of them " Love money" uh yeah right, I dunno where your comming from..i would like some money as its useful in civilization to have a bit of cash funny enough, but i definatley dont love it, that is a completley different philosiphy isnt it, the one based on all consuming, consumerism and an ego that cant see itself. You sure you get this? It doesnt sound like it.
I aslo find it hard to consider a very good rich person as being much good at all...like i said you need empathy to understand people in poverty. If you are "very wealthy" that means you have way more than you need even in our society, if bill gates has 10 billion and gives 5 billion to africa he still has 5 billion, that kind of charity im not impressed with. Still reeks of ego to me.

materialism is when one identifies any possession as himself. It becomes a piece of himself. It is to be detached from matter. True detachment still holds an emotion to matter. Respect. Since I said this all, there must be some thing much greater to have. Some thing that trancends all matter.

Message to myself: The love you need can come from solely one person.

life, is rather strange for myself.

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
materialism is when one identifies any possession as himself. It becomes a piece of himself. It is to be detached from matter. True detachment still holds an emotion to matter. Respect. Since I said this all, there must be some thing much greater to have. Some thing that trancends all matter.

Message to myself: The love you need can come from solely one person.

life, is rather strange for myself.

the greeeattttessst looooovvve of aaaaaallllll, its eeeaasyy to achieveeeeeee, leeeaarrniiiingg to loooooooove yourself
iiiisss the greateeeeest looooooove ooooof aaaalllllllllll

Originally posted by orangutang
reply to post by splitlevel

 

sl, what is the experience, if you don't mind me asking, of anyone that spends time in your company? can they feel what you have realized?

Yeah, Where's the beef?
In other words, where is the proof of this so called Enlightenment?
All that has been presented so far is vague understanding of non duality.
There really isnt even any teaching here.

We are all sinners believing we don't sin at all. I think I am raised the wrong way.

And How will you OP use your experience of Enlightenment to progress others to reach the same destination and not just being confused at the point of not being able to communicate with others?

reply to post by SparkOfSparks6

The moment you think you have achieved enlightenment you have lost it. Yet at the same time everyone is enlightened already.


If you are spending more time on ATS than you are serving other people you are not enlightened. If you're arguing that you are enlightened then you aren't. If you are arguing what enlightenment is then you don't know.

But wait you say aren't you arguing what enlightenment is? Yes I am.

I have experienced it and it is glorious. I know what it is and I know I no longer have it.