Do you really want to achieve enlightenment?

Originally posted by j-man
I don't really get what you're going at OP. Apperently you make a pretty big statement about how futile every attempt to reach enlightment is, promoting not reading books and denying every teacher just playing along... If I had to choose who to deny between Jesus Buddha and you my choice isn't all that hard.

thats not my point. what i said was Jesus and Buddha were showing people the way to enlightenment and how to end the dilusion we live in, but religion has made them figure heads to be worshiped as supernatural beings and purer than normal people, doing this makes it seem that clarity is unubtainble to mortal people. These men were men, flesh and blood, dont forget, weather they has something beyond ordinary enlightenment is up for debate and speculation. According to the bible and writings on buddha they were far beyond enlightenment, if they could peform supernatural feats, such as walking on water and returning from death.
So get it right, if you have faith that these men could achieve supernatural things then they are far beyond anything I have knowledge of, but I am not stating they didnt have these powers, I just do not know either way.
but I do know about clairty and these men primarily taught mankind to accept this clairty for the sake of the wellbeing of mankind, which they both were part of, both born to women were they not? if they both came down in a spaceship i may think differently about them.
Also remember I am not promoting myself as anything supernatural or as some kind of guru. just a regular person saying anyone who wants can gain clairty can do and it would generally help them in life a whole lot.
if people are helped it makes the world better for them and for me as i have to share the world with them. Get it.
i am as much as being selfish as I am being benevilant. its a win win for everyone.

[

Why not live in a cave? Sounds like you're attached to your technological western lifestyle and making excuses for yourself.



I wasnt born in a cave so why would I live in one? If my computer broke tomorrow i doubt id get it fixed as I really dont care about it, just for the record.
Also as i already stated, I have an ego-some would say a huge one no doubt, if i didnt id be a zombie. The difference is I can see my ego from the outside and know it for what it really is, a facade. its only a tool used to deal with other peoples egos, as I live in a society full of ego's i need one to communicate ideas etc

like in your case. i see your hungover by the way...realise that only people whith all consuming ego's need to get drunk to escape them, just temporarily though, thats the pity about alcohal and other drugs, they only free you for a moment.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by splitlevel

 

Isn't it also possible that if a teacher existed in the world who knew all the answers, then only those who are ready to receive those answers would know of that teacher?

hi, as this is a question I will try to answer it. Thats like the expression about the teacher appears when the student is ready, this may be true...That kind of philosiphy is rooted in zen, which is basically the same as "trust in God", in my opinion. I have gained clairty and understand the sufffering caused by ego but the step of living without question is not one I have yet taken and may not take. i have had many experiences that lead me to suspect that once you are one with nature or zen mind/empty mind or god and bond with it that no harm will come to you, but this is a huge step to consider living by. I am not yet at that point but I have took huge leaps of faith before and have been protected during those times, but that zen mind comes and goes and the more i live in society the more difficult it is to hold on to that zen, no doubt thats why zen master live in solitude away from distractions.

If one realizes that this state of delusion is a necessary aspect on the journey towards enlightenment, then it is easy to accept others in the condition one finds them.


Yes it is easy to accept others in this state of dilusion, absolutely right, and once you realise your own dilusion your empathy towards others suffering all the problems of the mind that they suffer, expands a thousand fold.
As Jesus said "forgive them father for they no not what they do".
You can only realise and understand this seemingly contradictory statement once you have some clarity.

Some don't understand the notion of enligtment, spirituality and enligtment are two different things apart.

To get enlighment you must consume spirituality, spirituality is the fuel for enligtment, spiritual practice and enligtment are two different things.

I notice how many films have zen characters as the central hero.
For instance The Book of Eli. Denzel washington is a Christian on a mission from God in the movie. However a man could only be truly fearless if he did not think about fear or feel it and in the movie denzel is absoultey fearless and cuts his enemies down in an instant like a samuri warrior. You can only achieve such fearlessness if you are in a zen mind/empty non thinking mind state. Denzels character has achieved this unthinking/empty mind because he believes that he no longer needs to think as god is his protector. the thing is that seemingly in the movie a force does protect him on his journey. In Zen this force is because he has given up his ego entierly and is at one with nature and so the univers and him are one thing. in Christianity he has put his faith in God, and does not question anything as god is doing his thinking for him, controlling his actions etc, so if anyone say they have put their faith in God, if they still have an ego then they are still diluded.
A totally different character is James Bond or Batman or for that matter virtually all action heroes in movies, who are somewhat portrayed as having a huge ego, but contrary to this are their actions, as a all consuming ego would not face such ridiculous odds, when outnumbered, and stay calm and in complete control. This is zen mind and ironically holywood movies are full of these zen charachters but people misinterprit their actions as being cool and to be emulated, but you can see a different meaning in these movies once you have some clarity. the irony is also that the zen character would not have an ego and no desire to be cool, the zen charachters actions are simply reactive and completley natural ones that come from the pure untinking mind, running off your original programme or god programme.
Aslo the zen mind allows you to react in an instant to any possibility because it is pure and free from thought and distraction. As i said before a spider couldnt build its web if it thought about it.
This is a further discussion though about the zen mind witch in my opinion is a step beyond enlightenment.
I find the zen mind fasinating because the things you would be capable of doing in this mind are amazing but they are not the things you would chose to do when driven by ego, instead the ego centric mind marvels at the zen charachter and tries to emulate his actions, for instance by studying martial arts, so they can "kick Ass", which of course misses the main ingredient of being able to kick ass in the first palce, which is not having the desire to kick ass. But how many peole would not let go of the ego in return for the abilities of the zen mind and all its self control and peace of mind.
who marvels at the sholin monks but would not wish to join them..most of us...haha...yet we still marvel
Actually Batman, who i mentioned earlied, is a very interesting character, in the batman begins movie bruce Wayne, suffers loss and searches for enlightemnet, which he then finds with the aid of a teacher. Then in the sequal Dark Night movie...he is still enlightened, and switches to using zen mind as Batman but uses his ego in public as a facade, and he has a huge ego, all the more huge than normal ego's because he knows what it is and that is isnt based on anyones opinion, and he knows it is only an act or a tool for communication in a society full of dillusion. Batman is a brilliant analysis of this enlightened mind ive been talking about.

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reply to post by splitlevel


I've never really thought about wanting to become enlightened. I just figured I'd gradually become enlightened as I grow older and wiser. No need to rush things.

Originally posted by ThirdMind
reply to post by splitlevel

 

I've never really thought about wanting to become enlightened. I just figured I'd gradually become enlightened as I grow older and wiser. No need to rush things.

Its not a question of rushing to clarity.
For years I was content and I had nothing...i didnt question why i was content, because I didnt need to question it. being content was a state of mind I enjoyed so why question it.
Then years later as I got older into adult hood, I became less content and more frustraited with life not meeting my expectations.
i spend some time in this state of mind and was unhappy generally.
I then found enlightenment, which returned me to my former state of being and allowed me to see what had happened to change me from being a happy person into a miserable person.
this is enlightenment.
now if I had of stayed content from the go get i wouldnt have needed any enlightenment.
enlightenment or clairiy is only needed to retrurn peace of mind. if you have peace of mind you do not need a spiritual journey you already have all you need.
So if your happy now, as you are, there is no more to life than that, the problems begin when people are falsly led to believe that there is more and that material posessions etc will bring it to you, when infact that is a devious lie which does exactly the opposite.
if your content now, you need no journey to enlightenment, but if you slip into what most people slip into, the delusional state, then you need waking up thats all it is.

You sound fine already. however I wonder why you are on this thread...I guess your just curious.

reply to post by splitlevel


\/ people are happy to be sheep, being lead because they are taught that inorder to fit into societythey must do these things. After you have awakened to the fact that yes sally there really is something bigger than yoursel outthere you are supposed to tell that to other people in the hopes that you may be able to awaken them to the other world as well

earth is a school and there are those of us on it who are intouch with the spirit realm. some of us read others see. and still others do both i see auras around people. when you are able to see them around otherpeople you can tell alot about people from their light showing us the way

reply to post by splitlevel


I mentioned rushing because I know some people feel the need to, well, rush into becoming enlightened without understanding what it really means to be enlightened, just so they can say that they are. That kinda defeats the purpose to me, I'd rather let things come naturally. But yeah, I'm just posting on here out of curiosity.

think of it this way.
People start out as children, they cant understand much of what goes on around them and so stay innocent...and happy...", its only when you get older you develop ego and all the illusion that come with it.
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
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All these statements coinside with Buddhas teachings on destruction of ego. Most peole fail to see this and make fools of themselves thinking they follow Jesus or buddha, when they infact run contrary to the teachings mostly. you only need to look around a Christian grave yard to see the competiton between who has the biggest and most lavish head stone, such is the Ego of so called religious people. Or look at celebrity, so called Buddhists, who seek an audience with the Dali Lama, hahaha, talk about missing the whole point.

Originally posted by splitlevel
think of it this way.
People start out as children, they cant understand much of what goes on around them and so stay innocent...and happy...", its only when you get older you develop ego and all the illusion that come with it.
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All these statements coinside with Buddhas teachings on destruction of ego. Most peole fail to see this and make fools of themselves thinking they follow Jesus or buddha, when they infact run contrary to the teachings mostly. you only need to look around a Christian grave yard to see the competiton between who has the biggest and most lavish head stone, such is the Ego of so called religious people. Or look at celebrity, so called Buddhists, who seek an audience with the Dali Lama, hahaha, talk about missing the whole point.

No, Jesus said things that are in contradiction to what Buda said, it's you interpreting things wrong, children have egos, passion, curiosity, once you let that go they are all gone. Your ego is your E-motion, Go-ing, it's what your ego is. Emotion, E-motion, "E-go or E-motion" Go or Motion are the same, moving. Leting go of your Ego is letting go of your innocence, it's what enligtment is.

Enligtment is contrary to innocence. Your innocence is your ego, your ego is your feeling, emotions, curiosity, the passion.

If you look at all of the 10 commandments or the 8 fold path. All these instructions or rules are infact conditions brought about from the ego.
If someone had of explained this to me when I was a kid i would have understood much better, but they dont, they just cram rules down your ear hole.
thats because people get taught about humanity backwards and misinterprit religion. We start out fine as children...its the teaching that screws us up more often than not, becuase its taught poorly by people who do not understand it themselves and simply see things as rules to be followed or enforced against your will.
this only makes peoples ego's grow as a reaction to being told what to do and how they are sinners.

its all counter productive.
You only need to see fundamendalists on all sides to see the results.

can you imagine the first time you saw a brightly colored butterfly? Or smelled a wild flower? Probably not, you were a child. these experiences cost us nothing but were no doubt beautiful and blissful.
now think about the last time you got something you chased after, could be a job, house, car, beautiful woman or man. Or maybe you never caught the things you were chasing, which likley made you miserable, maybe the beautiful person regected you or walked out. Or maybe everything you managed to catch turned to crap after a while and became a massive source of regret or tension etc. yet the dillusion tells us to keep chasing. we know it doesnt work but we keep chasing the dillusion chasing after illusions.
All material happiness is temporary, thats all there is to it, so realisng this frees you to be at peace. being at peace may not be being in a constant state of blissfullness but it is a dillusion to think you can obtain blissfulness here on earth, especially by chasing temporary material objects, that includes people.
you only need to look at celebrities of the world...On the face of it, they have it all but yet they need constant media attention to keep "happy", likley most of them have a bunch of mental issues that I wont speculate on, kept in check by prozac etc, afterall seeking fame and social approval is a mental illness caused by ego. low and behold is this not what everyone else is now emulating on facebook...hahaha, when they should be going in the opposite direction if they want to remain sain.
Its no point being wealthy if you have no piece of mind.
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
See how Christianity makes perfect sense when you gain a little clarity. you wont find me thumping a bible though or attending church.

reply to post by splitlevel

The ego is part of your innocence, have you seen the "Passion of the Jew" it's what the name implies.
You can go wrong do alot of wrong stuff but at the end still be innocent, "because it's ok you did not know"
It's what a child is, it does not know, it's innocent, contrary to enligtment and letting go of the ego that is the other side, opposite and contrary to the innocent. Enligtment is contrary to Innocent, you can be enligten and innocent at the same time only if god has the desire for it, otherwise the more enligted you are the more you renounce your innocence.

If you do know ("meaning you are enlighted") you have to answer for the things you have done.

There is a lot of twisting of things, and it needs to be exposed, people are getting it the wrong way.
A lot of kids are tricked with this enligtment stuff, please stop speading disinformation.

So Jesus was talking in contradiction to what Buda was saying.
He was putting it short and saying that from the humans only the innocent get to go to the kingdom of god.(the ones that are not enlighted)

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by splitlevel

 

The ego is part of your innocence, have you seen the "Passion of the Jew" it's what the name implies.
You can go wrong do alot of wrong stuff but at the end still be innocent, "because it's ok you did not know"
It's what a child is, it does not know, it's innocent, contrary to enligtment and letting go of the ego that is the other side, opposite and contrary to the innocent. Enligtment is contrary to Innocent, you can be enligten and innocent at the same time only if god has the desire for it, otherwise the more enligted you are the more you renounce your innocence.

i think your coming at this from a different understanding of God. You seem to be saying God is a seperate entity "Only if god has desire for it". Not just that but how would a zen God have desire? thats contradictory. You can posess what it is to be enlightened and innocent at the same time, but you just wouldnt realise you were enlightened. Enlightened is just the expression for someone who has been innocent then developed an ego and then discovered it was the ego behind most of their problems and accept it.

If you do know ("meaning you are enlighted") you have to answer for the things you have done.

Well you could look back and regret how diluded you were when you made certain decisions based on ego..sure. however you wouldnt need to answer for anything during your life after enlightenment becuase there would be no point in being "a bad person".

There is a lot of twisting of things, and it needs to be exposed, people are getting it the wrong way.
A lot of kids are tricked with this enligtment stuff, please stop speading disinformation.

I hope your not meaning me...Im not trying to trick anyone or spread disinfo are you serious? if you are serious, you are definatley misunderstanding me. As they say "lighten up man"

So Jesus was talking in contradiction to what Buda was saying.
He was putting it short and saying that from the humans only the innocent get to go to the kingdom of god.(the ones that are not enlighted)

Uh, no, You got that back to front...did you read my posts? i said that Christianity and Buddhism are the smae thing. you seem to think the kingdom of god is up in the sky, when infact according to christianity its in your own head and all around us, this is inline with zen buddhism philosiphyb]

reply to post by pepsi78


Further more tell me the difference in these statements below.


Jesus words
All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone

Buddhas words
all things are transient and temporary and devoid of independent existence.


signature:

Jesus
"To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him . Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

Zen koans are no less riddles than Jesus parables. The idea behind them it to trip your mental faculties into understanding what cant be understood through ordinary explination. By far most people who follow either religious practice fail to grasp what they really mean. your supposed to find Jesus and Buddhas statements confusing, thats what Jesus explains here when asked why he uses parables to explain things, thats the plan, so confusing that eventually after contemplaiting them, you click. its a pity most people dont click

edit on 9-5-2011 by splitlevel because: (no reason given)