Nato strike 'kills Saif al-Arab Gaddafi', Libya says

Originally posted by wonderworld
I would have loved to have been on ATS in 2005 when the UK lost their constitution.

Er, what?

We "lost" our constitution?

I'll let you explain before I let rip, as I suspect you may have got confused...

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


If you cared to read my comments you would of seen the many links I posted on the subject. What are you the grammar police? Someone makes a spelling mistake and you post about that, for real? You honestly must have no life to have to post about something like that. I also noticed you edited your comment, did you make a spelling mistake their bud?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Actually, I am not basing my opinion that he has popular support SOLELY on the images I see. But lets start there. In all the images of the rebels we see a few hundred. Even when, all the western media has been trying their hardest to make this uprising look like a large one.

At the beginning of the uprising there really wasn’t any western media in Libya – only what was permitted by the government. Inside Libya it’s controlled by the regime. There are a few newspapers that are privately owned, but you tell me – how biased or unbiased would they be - less so than any news coming from the west? So, tough to get the news out when you can’t get in to get the news. Most of the stuff you saw in the early days was coming from people’s cell phones.

Except of course the scenes released by the regime directly – and those had the benefit of being shot by real camera crews with real cameras – in front of crowds of people that weren’t running. Those cheering green crowds were shot usually from fairly close up – as opposed to scenes of scattered rebels from not quite as close up. If you know what I mean. :-)

Do you mean to say that news is only manipulated by the west? Do you also mean to say that you trust what you see with your own eyes if it comes from Qaddafi’s camp?

When you say the media has been trying to make the uprising look like a large one – I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Can you explain to me where and when there was some kind of attempt to make this about numbers? It seems that numbers are essential to you when trying to determine what is and isn’t legitimate.

But let’s say it is about numbers. These supporting crowds you’re seeing are all in Tripoli – the capital. Also, they are crowds because they are protected. The protesters are not protected. If your argument depends on large groups determining right from wrong – how can this not affect your reasoning? I only ask because you go back to this again and again – so I know it’s important to you. But – they’re rebels – how would it benefit them to gather together and stand around in the open in large groups? It’s not a photo-op.

As I mentioned earlier – freedom of speech has not only been suppressed but it’s been punished for the past 40 years. This uprising took me completely by surprise – I wouldn’t have thought they would even dare had I not seen it with my own eyes. Why are you so concerned that there wasn’t a bigger turn out? How do the numbers work for you – would you have considered this a legitimate rebellion if there were better crowds?

In any case, early on – February 17th:

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Deadly clashes broke out in several towns in Libya on Thursday after the opposition called for protests against leader Muammar Gaddafi in a rare show of defiance inspired by uprisings in other Arab states. Tight controls on media and communications in Libya made it difficult to assess the extent of the violence there. Unrest has spread across North Africa and the Middle East since the fall of the leaders of Tunisia and Egypt.

ca.reuters.com...

Days later:

Journalists from newspapers and broadcasters across the world, including ITV News and the New York Times, are descending on the Libyan border as anti-government protests intensify against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.

A blanket ban on foreign journalists entering Libya has meant that facts are increasingly hard to verify.

The BBC is one of the only international news organisations with a correspondent in Libya's capital, Tripoli, where government and state television buildings came under attack on Monday.

Many western news organisations – including the Associated Press, the Daily Telegraph, and the Guardian – have been restricted to reporting from neighbouring countries, usually Egypt.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Despite threats by the embattled Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, journalists are finding ways to report and broadcast from parts of Libya, one of the least hospitable places in the world for news organizations.

www.nytimes.com...

Yes, I know – it’s the media – they can’t be trusted. But – you do trust some media. This is what I’m trying to understand.

So, one from Tripoli: www.tripolipost.com...

Where is the missing footage of these vast numbers of rebels?

How is it missing – if it was never shot? I think your looking for video of vast numbers of protesters – not rebels. You might have had it if there was some one to shoot it – and if the crowds were allowed to grow. They weren’t.

Secondly, a leader unpopular with his people faced with a majority uprising backed by the Western military might is able to hold out for a very long time. His military is not turning against him to save themselves and their families even though they can be sure they would turn the tide of victory in favor of the rebels and possibly even earn themselves favor with the new regime.

Why is this?

To be perfectly honest – I don’t know. It defies explanation. But several of his best pilots refused to serve – they defected. There were rumors that the early bombing of the rebels was being done by Ukrainian mercenaries – but I don’t know if that’s been confirmed. Also reports of African mercenaries on foot – again – not sure if that will hold up in the end. It’s a war – some details won’t be facts until much later.

If I was going to guess I’d say – money and/or fear of reprisals should Gaddafi manage to hold on to power.

But I have to ask – the words hold out...and long time. Does this really apply? It’s been 2 months give or take. NATO didn’t get into it right away – the better question might be – if he’s so freaking popular – how did the rebels fare so well for so long on their own?

I know the correct answer is – corporate support – right? :-) Seems like they could have done a better job – Qaddafi is still alive and technically still in power

I have to add – a few of his top men have bailed and in effect defected. These are not nice guys – but they saw the writing on the wall. Rats off a sinking ship.

Thirdly, there are objective UN numbers showing the quality of life of the Libyan people to be much better than the other people in the region. This does not tend to make people unhappy with their leaders. On average, they even had better quality of life than most westerners.

Why are they so angry with him? Does this make sense?

:-) You tell me – does it make sense? Why are they so angry? I was asking earlier – can you quote any one that says they really love the guy? Those crowds holding up signs in Tripoli don’t count – tainted media being what it is and all. Also – you trust those objective UN reports? The UN is one of the main reasons this is all happening the way it is right now. Just for grins: www.nytimes.com... North Korea seems to think Libya is really keen. I know – it’s the New York Times – and, it’s the UN’s Human Rights report. But how about that standard of living report – what’s your source? The UN - again – do you trust it?

Also – what is your idea of a better quality of life? We here in the west get to vote. We could argue whether or not that’s really valuable from here to forever, but still – I’ll say it again – this guy did not win an election. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Fourth, the story and the rationale of the "allies" seems to be morphing and shifting and their actions, (bombing Gaddafis son's house) do not correspond with their words.

There’s no way you or I can know what’s up with that – we’re arm-chairing it right now. Kinda looks like they want him dead – doesn’t it? It doesn’t correspond with their words, true, and it is all completely obvious. But as I said, my first post in this thread – there is no proof yet that he is dead – funny thing. Why does everyone assume he is – based on reports out of Tripoli? He may well be dead – and maybe it was NATO that got him. But, if we’re going to debate right and wrong in all of this – it should be based on what we know – not what we imagine. Often – what we imagine is true is coincidentally what works best with our pet theories.

Fifth, I have seen this all before, in Iraq. I have familiarity with the way our media and government propagandized "humanitarian war."

You see a pattern in the way things play out in this world... but every situation is unique – no matter how much it might resemble something else. I’m not here trying to say you’re wrong Illusions – I was struck by certain repeating themes in your argument – I was curious about how you arrive at some of your conclusions

Did you watch the video a couple pages back? You tell me.

I went back and watched it after you asked...there’s nothing but more of the same in that video – all I saw was a piece of passive aggressive jingoism. And Illusions – it was made to move people. It’s pure manipulation – not fact. It really doesn’t answer the numbers question.

How many Americans can you count speaking out against Obama? Does this mean NATO should authorize action against him?

Interesting question – Obama didn’t order the strafing of his own people. If he ever does – you betcha. I brought it up because you seem to find it difficult to believe that his own people are not so much in favor of him as the are in favor of him being shot. This doesn’t make sense to you – so I wondered – who have you heard from that loves him?

Many of us have pointed out the small matter of missing planes while they are shooting up in the air. Al Jazeera' has tacked on disclaimers to at least one video made about atrocities against the rebels.

What evidence do you have that they are authentic?

Is it possible you’re missing my point completely – or are you just deflecting :-)

Were they in Libya still? Or had they emigrated from Libya?

What difference does it make? Their accounts are less valid if they left Libya than if they’d stayed?

To answer your question – both. A few were here temporarily, unfortunately, destined to return. There is a Libyan diaspora however... like many other groups of people from around the world – they believed they had a good reason to get out of dodge.

We may find out. You can be jailed in America for life without trial. In that same "brutal intolerant country," a woman got on television, accused Gaddafis people of raping her, screamed loudly about how abusive the government has been to her, and helped instigate war against Libya, and yet she walks free, unharmed. At least up til a few days ago. That doesnt strike YOU as odd?

Do you think she walks free because their system is more just and compassionate than ours? Seriously? Based on one example? Whether she was lying or telling the truth – how would jailing her look to the rest of the world? Not that Qaddaffi cares much about what people think – at home or abroad. This is what interests me – do you really know nothing of any of the reports of abuses that have been coming out of that country for the past 40 years – or do you honestly believe that any bad news out of Libya is manufactured in an attempt to discredit him? I’m not baiting – I just find this interesting. What you see as credible – and what you don’t trust.

I don’t expect you to trust me or any of the stories I’ve been told – for all you know I made them up. But it’s not as if there isn’t anything out there to look up – that’s all I’m saying. The Libyan people have more than enough reason to be angry. Angry isn’t big enough a word. The man is a monster.

You can compare him to whoever you want – you can compare him to us. That isn’t my point – the planet is full of people that should probably be offed – there is plenty of misery to go around – and I can’t justify any of it

I know what I know. The only thing I am interested in at this point is what people are willing to believe – what they try to believe – what they won’t believe – and why? In a world where information can’t be trusted – how does one form an opinion or arrive at a conclusion?

I have NEVER said I would participate in armed revolt against my nation. Ever. Nor would I. I would defend my nation, I would fight to protect my government from being overturned, but I would never use force of arms to overturn my own government. And yes, any group who does try to overturn the US government from within, gets what they deserve.

Not even if it was clear that your government was no longer the government you new and loved? If it was abusing it’s power and it’s people? That’s what this is about you know – I’m not talking about America land of the free, home of the brave...I’m talking about something else. We can only imagine that right now – but other people are living it. And not just in Libya – all over.

And, I meant that as a compliment Illusions – it wasn’t an accusation :-)

I have to disregard everything you just said – as beautiful as it was

I may not know you well, but I know this about you based on everything you’ve said: If it came down to it – and something threatened to destroy this government you love so much – and replace it with something vile – you would be on the front line. As would I.

But you and I will probably never have to make that choice – to fight or not to fight. Lucky us.

I have answered YOUR questions.

Answer me one. Why, in light of the actions of your government in the past, are you so willing to believe this is true? And leave out the testimony of your Libyan friends IF they are immigrants to America. Because there is bias in considering the opinion of someone who disliked it somewhere enough to leave. Americans who leave America might have some nasty things to say too. Hell, Americans IN America have some very nasty things to say about brutality by police, harassment, etc..

Well – this isn’t about people leaving because the taxes are too high – this is about people leaving because their lives are in jeopardy. Because people they love have been executed – or disappeared without a trace – or imprisoned unjustly.

In light of the actions of MY government you say? The government that can do no wrong – yet does EVERYTHING wrong? LOL!

I am not willing to believe this is true – I know it’s true. Have known it for years. It puts me in a weird position – listening to all the arguing...it’s a very strange feeling.

Listen – I’m not naïve – and there is so much going on behind the scenes in this story – like most of these stories...there is no white hat or black hat – we’re not kids playing a game.

But my information didn’t come from wikileaks or youtube – it came from damaged people. Up close and personal.

I probably will not engage in a long debate with you. Because I like you. And I do not want to undo our good regard for one another. We will have to just agree to disagree, but I would like to understand your position first.

:-) Probably not? LOL! Well, too late for that I think. Our opinions are not always the same, true. But what would be the fun in that?

I didn’t come here under false pretenses – it wasn’t an attack. The only reason I opened my mouth is because I admire and respect you. I wanted to understand your thinking. So, there you go – ditto

:-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Not even if it was clear that your government was no longer the government you new and loved? If it was abusing it’s power and it’s people? That’s what this is about you know – I’m not talking about America land of the free, home of the brave...I’m talking about something else. We can only imagine that right now – but other people are living it. And not just in Libya – all over. ............

I may not know you well, but I know this about you based on everything you’ve said: If it came down to it – and something threatened to destroy this government you love so much – and replace it with something vile – you would be on the front line. As would I.

I know that. And I am trying to guard against that happening in America. And you and I are on opposite sides of the battle. I see my country being manipulated by a corporate run media, being led into an unjust war against a sovereign nation and its people, for the economic benefit of bankers and corporations. I see much the same thing happening now, that happened in Iraq. Only I see my corporate sponsored politicians, (and thats not really debatable, they actually are) also spending money we dont have now, when we have been downgraded to a C credit rating.

I see MY country being destroyed economically. I see MY countrymen and women being played, once again, by the corporate owned media as if they were musical instruments. I care what happens in Libya not because I love Gaddafi, but because I believe that justice has to matter on principle, not just when it suits you, when someone you like is involved, or when you feel good about it.

I see that the moment my government is being replaced with something vile is right NOW. Not off in the future somewhere. We are already being overtaken. We need to stop it now. I feel Im trying to do that. By asking my countrymen and women not to let their sympathies be played once again, to our detriment as a nation. Emotion is where we are led down the garden path, fear, sympathy, etc.

Reason tells us we have seen this before. We have seen people trotted out before the media and swearing that the Iraqis were dumping babies out of incubators in Kuwait and leaving them to die. I see the media declining to cover protests abroad and at home of the globalist agenda. I see the stacking of the Supreme Court with corporate friendly candidates while we are distracted with social issues. I see my country being consumed from within, right now.

And you dont.

You say the media was run out of Libya, and yet the woman who claimed she was raped managed to find her way to a whole group of them. I see inconsistency, after inconsistency, I see motive, in that the nations where uprisings are being fostered are those who are not part of the global banking system, and those whose uprisings are being suppressed are compliant with western economic interests, I see many important details, to me, that you do not find important.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
But you and I will probably never have to make that choice – to fight or not to fight. Lucky us.

Im already fighting for my country. As are others.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
But my information didn’t come from wikileaks or youtube – it came from damaged people. Up close and personal.

Which, my friend, makes it all the more suspect. Im not accusing your friends of lying. At all. But I am saying that human beings see things through their own selfish lens. I know women who are abused, and who sob, and cry, and who play the victim well. But when I watch the dynamic, I see that they are playing out a script, and I see that they are not victims, but players in a drama not entirely of their own making, but which they are equal participants in. I dont know your friends. But I know how difficult it is for many people to view their friends and their stories impassively. Aside from your feelings about your friends you do not really have much of a case built for yourself of non emotional details.



I also dont know you well, but I do know you are emotional, and sensitive. A poet. (And that is no detraction from your fine reasoning mind either, btw, just an add.) And while I am not saying this is the case with you, in this situation, I know that sensitive and emotional people can at times find it hard to be truly objective about people they know and care for. Because of this, I have to hold your opinion of your friends plight at arms length. I consider it, but I cannot just embrace it. I dont know how able or willing you are to dig and find out if they might have been party to their own drama.

MOST of the people I know who are adults, ARE party to the drama in their lives. If you probe deeply enough. But not all. In this case, not knowing them, I cannot know. But I also cannot take your word for it.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
:-) Probably not? LOL! Well, too late for that I think. Our opinions are not always the same, true. But what would be the fun in that?

I can easily be friends with people who I do not agree with. Unfortunately, it is rarely reciprocated. Many people unfortunately hinge friendship upon agreement, and this fight is pointless enough that I really dont want to risk that with you. Time will tell here. It may take a long time. But the truth will eventually come out. Bits and pieces at a time.

Originally posted by SpiramirabilisThe only reason I opened my mouth is because I admire and respect you. I wanted to understand your thinking.

I share the sentiment. Completely. And I do know where you are coming from now. Your heart. But Im not. I feel for the people of Libya, and for my own people, but its not why I think the way I do. And to be honest, I dont hold it against you that you do not agree at all. The variables I am considering are many more than I could ever list in their entirety. Just............stuff. Like knowing what happened in Bolivia with Bechtel, and knowing what happened in Nigeria with shell, and the leaked memos on the Afghan war from our CIA, and how they flat out said, "this is how you, France, need to manipulate YOUR people in the media, trot out women and have them tell of the abuses, and this is how YOU Germany, manipulate YOUR people, you need to be sensitive to their aversion to war because of the Nazi issue and stress how quick it will be and how little it will cost..........." And other memos, and just more.

My strong and certain feeling that this uprising is a group who historically has disliked Gaddafi (and who have likely real grievances with him) who are being pushed and manipulated into furthering a goal for the western economic interests. I dont think the people pushing them care about them, or the rest of the Libyan people. I dont think they care about America either.

I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

In all honesty, I hope you are right. But I doubt it.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

And while I am not saying this is the case with you, in this situation, I know that sensitive and emotional people can at times find it hard to be truly objective about people they know and care for.

ahhh, but Illusions - you have a deep - and let's face it - extremely emotional love for your country

careful my friend - that lens distorts just as much for you as it does for me

and objectivity can be a very subjective thing

and now, this poet bids you good night...

:-)

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by stumason
I have no problem with regime change, just being lied to. I personally think we should invade other countries too and overthorw more of these nutjobs. The more democracies around the world the better as no true democracy has ever gone to war with another.

The word knob springs to mind....
Vicky

A few others spring to mind as well, I'll just leave that alone for the present though.

I guess dictating democracy across the globe is, truly, a great idea stu

Originally posted by Aeons
They got the most dangerous son amoungst the lot.

I'd like to expand on this.

I would suggest that Muammar was not actually the main target. Getting him would have been a nice bonus.

Muammar being in the same place as Saif Al-Islam was just a good cover excuse.

Saif Al-Islam was the target.

reply to post by Aeons


I'm sure.

I just doubt highly that it was a NATO exclusive. I'm more apt to believe his brother had a huge hand in ensuring it.

Originally posted by alphabetaone
reply to post by Aeons

 

I'm sure.

I just doubt highly that it was a NATO exclusive. I'm more apt to believe his brother had a huge hand in ensuring it.

Which one?

reply to post by Aeons


Mutasim-Billah

Im going to quote my post about 9 or 10 pages back or so, just for clarity as to why I thought so.

I have a real funny feeling that Mutasim-Billah Gadhafi probably used this "opportunity", or orchestrated the event with NATO.

Gadhafi's fourth son, was a lieutenant colonel in the Libyan Army and later served as Libya's national security adviser. He also has spent time living in luxury in the West, including at his mansion in the London suburbs, and hobnobbing with the rich and powerful, according to published accounts. Like other members of the family, he also is an accomplished shakedown artist, according to a leaked U.S. diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks.

A July 2008 report from the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli quoted a confidential informant as saying that Mutasim put pressure on the chairman of the National Oil Corp., Shukri Ghanem, to pay him $1.2 billion in cash and oil shipments. Ghanem told the confidant he was considering resigning because he feared Mutasim could seek revenge if he wasn't paid, it said. Mutasim also made headlines after WikiLeaks published the classified U.S. diplomatic cables when it was revealed that he paid pop stars Beyonce, Usher and other musicians $1 million to play at a New Year's Eve party in 2010 on the Caribbean island of St. Barts. Guests reportedly included Lindsay Lohan, music mogul Russell Simmons, the band Bon Jovi and Beyonce's husband, multimillionaire rapper Jay-Z. He is reportedly one of two Gadhafi sons -- the other being Khamis -- opposed to a peace plan being promoted by brothers Saif al-Islam and Saadi.

Source of above

edit on 1-5-2011 by alphabetaone because: (no reason given)

DAMMIT.

Its the wrong Saif.

The dangerous one is still around.

They got the youngest one. Saif al-ARAB al-Gaddafi.

I take it back.

reply to post by Aeons


LOL alrighty then

The idea that they are using targeted strikes to take out all the other possible contenders to the Islamic Pan-State "Throne" and leaving Saif al-Islam alive to walk into it might keep me awake at night for a while.

When I thought they'd gotten him I had an ounce of belief that this operation was really hamstringing the caliphate.

Now, I think they are orchestrating it.

Originally posted by Aeons
The idea that they are using targeted strikes to take out all the other possible contenders to the Islamic Pan-State "Throne" and leaving Saif al-Islam alive to walk into it might keep me awake at night for a while.

When I thought they'd gotten him I had an ounce of belief that this operation was really hamstringing the caliphate.

Now, I think they are orchestrating it.

Well, for certain, if the Ghaddafi stronghold on the throne didn't keep people awake at night in that part of the world, it certainly should now.

Either way though, targetting successors from the inside makes more and more sense to me. You know, brotherly love and all that.

One wonders if Muammar will realize what his son is up to. Or if he is in on it.

Is the wily ol'man going to cede to his son? Or is he feeling the shiver of someone walking over his grave?

So, in Iran, 11 Ordibehesht is being associated to the political/religious groups calling for the end of Khameni.

11 Ordibehesht is May 1.

Originally posted by Aeons
So, in Iran, 11 Ordibehesht is being associated to the political/religious groups calling for the end of Khameni.

11 Ordibehesht is May 1.

Actually, I think a lot is related to recent happenings in the Middle East/Africa....I just can't seem to put them all together at the moment, but one thing I DO NOT think, is that Al Qaida has anything to do with it.

But, I think, Egypt, Sudan, Jordan, Yemen, Libya, (as far as Khameni, that may have something to do with him and Ahmadinejad not playing nicely together, although for it to be said publicly is almost blasphemy) Iran.....and finally, Bin Laden

It's too much to swallow right now and my mind is scattered

Why, after all these years of being called the Libyan "leader", is Gaddafi still only a Colonel?

Dont they have any Generals he could demote or kill, so he could become a General?

Or he could call himself "el Supremo" or something like that....