Supporters plan Leavenworth rally for WikiLeaks soldier

BEFORE:







AFTER:



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okay okay folks. Everbody take a Deeeeep breath. Holy cow!

I see passions have been -- um, inflamed -- just by thinking about this issue. There is another thread going regarding the voting process that is getting tons of traffic - I wonder why that person - who exposed the truth - is not in SC at a prison?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have not read through the above-linked entire thread yet, but the title alone seems relevant to what we are debating here.

ATS is a conspiracy-theorist safe haven - in theory. How many lurkers watch and read daily? How many members actually contribute? And of those, how many are so volatile that they erupt in flames when their hot-buttons are pushed? I expected there to be lively pros and cons regarding Manning's detention and treatment - but it seems the thread headed into a weird direction.

Bottom line is: He exposed government secrets.

He exposed CONSPIRACY.

How in the Sam Hill did anyone who thinks he should not have done that even find ATS to begin with? I will repeat - I neither condone nor condemn what he did - not my place to judge him - but certainly it is indisputable that there ARE secrets at many, many levels.

So, residents and guests here,................. DO you WANT to know the truth?............... Or not?

Why kill the messenger?
Why allow cover-up after cover-up to be exposed and then brushed under the rug, and then demand that only SOME of the people shedding light on bad, secret things going on should be punished? The simple fact that we KNOW there are things going on covertly is alarming - why focus so much energy on one young messenger rather than rallying to put an end to the atrocities being exposed and committed every day, in every part of the world??

Why are some coverups of corruption okay, and others are not? What gives?? No one is forcing anyone else to read this site's forums. Presumably people come here to LEARN THE TRUTH that is being WITHHELD or manipulated by TPTB. I find it fascinating that when - by whatever means - the truth IS elucidated, some readers are so upset by it that they -- sign up!! But, not for the reasons we would expect - so that they can condemn and judge the very people bringing OUT the truth?

Wow. Really?

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reply to post by wildtimes

I disagree.
The military brought me from a immature high school kid to a responsible person. There is no brainwashing, sorry to say. I have done alot in my life, including LE. I have an extensive background and have been fortunate enough to know many of people within the military, SF and so on.
None were brainwashed, 99% of them were very smart (Book and Worldly).
The argument that the Military preys on young kids is BS as well. 80% of the military has nothing to do with fighting or combat.
I learned alot in the Military, including background for numerous jobs in the real world.

The rules within the Military are pretty cut and dry. Do this, don't do that. Do this this way, don't do it that way.
Manning did not follow the process. I am not saying he deserves anything at this point. He simply did wrong and is now paying the price of his actions.

reply to post by Echtelion


Yeah, his rights fall under the UCMJ, not normal US citizen Constitutional rights.
Maybe read a book on US Law and Military Law.

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reply to post by itsawild1


Ok, will try it again. Since posting that I am a babykiller is ok, and my retort to an observation of your personal status was censored.

You don't know me and you are wrong on so many levels. Your unintelligent assumption shows your true colors.

reply to post by macman


hey macman -
ok, i can see by the fact that your post was censored that you are pist.
The military training process is well-documented and studied - and even if it weren't, I am married to a basic-training survivor, who served as an MP for many years.

As a trained social scientist I have credentials to stand behind that I am not an ignorant snob or slob who doesn't know the first thing about anything. Years ago, I wrote a thesis that demanded rigorous investigation into the techniques used by "military training". Years after that, I married a person who had undergone that "training" who also happened to be patriotic, young (basic training done at age 17) when he survived it, and INTELLIGENT enough to look back and say ..... WTF!??

the term "brainwashing" is a loaded one, I know. But I also know that the aim of the military is to break down a person's sense of moral humane behavior and instill them with a permanent need to be "defensive", to trust NO ONE, and to keep loaded weapons near at hand.

I am a pacifist - I am a 70s product - I have experienced myriad conversations and interractions with persons both military and conscientiously against war. There is no way that young, healthy people, with their entire adult lives ahead of them, can survive basic training without a part of their souls and sense of R&W being manipulated. If a person thinks FIRST of grabbing a gun, and SECOND of trusting an approaching person who shows no indication of threat or danger.....the exact thing that Military Training instills ... well, how is that NOT brainwashing???

Do i want to kill anyone? Certainly not. Do I want to know the truth? You betcha.

The US military training is intended to break down a person's sense of self, of R&W, and to do the commander's bidding regardless of the soldier's personal beliefs. They call it "patriotism". It's "brainwashing". "Do what I say because I said so."

Hmmmm.

EDITS were to fix typos and improve clarity.

reply to post by wildtimes


PM'ed you.

Ok, yes, brainwashing, used within the discussion of normal Military members I think is overboard.
Is every new recruit broken down to their bare essentials, Yes. But why? They are broken down to provide a platform of rebuilding to work and think as a unit and work together. As a military member, you have to be able to rely on the person next to you in any situation and basic training provides that.
Now, I am not naive to the world. I joined for training in a career field. But, I also joined knowing that I may go to war, and I may need to kill people. That is just how it works.
Do I want to kill people, regardless if they are friend or foe, no.
Do I understand that there may be a time that I may have to, yes.
Am I ok with this? Yes.
I would not have joined if I thought differently.
At the end of the day, I will go home.

No, most of the military does not do battle field operations. I would say maybe 20-30%. The remainder is doing regular jobs like Telecom, Plumber, Doctor or truck driver.
There is more brainwashing going on in commercials then in the Military. To say that a GI is there to do the bidding of a General, I guess, but no more so then a Manager to have employees do work.
I went in, young healthy. Came out well adjusted and have had no issue.
Same with my little brother.
It also takes a mid set and personality.
I do not back down from fights. I am not a pacifist. I believe in right and wrong.
I do not think fighting is the answer in ever situation, but I know that it is necessary sometimes. When it is, I will fight to win.

The fact that you are a self proclaimed pacifist, and I am not is the reason why I can say what I have said.
Do I look down upon pacifists, or think lower of you. No. This world needs and takes all kinds.
Just know that I, my brother and people like us have seen enemies and done what was asked of us, so you don't have to fight.
The US military is the greatest for one simple fact, we are voluntary.

Originally posted by HomerinNC
reply to post by Whereweheaded

 

He is being held and treated like any other charged person in any detention facility. If his clothes were taken from him, its because something he said indicated he was suicidal, and this is what he'd have to wear to prevent him from hurting himself:
Suicide suit

He's getting 3 meals a day, medical attention, a bed to sleep in, and the reason he's probably being isolated isd for his OWN PROTECTION. You stick him in General Population in a military jail and charged with charges that tantamount to treason, other inmate soldiers would probably kill him. In other words, treated like any other inmate.
In other countries, he'd probably NEVER get this, so yes i say he's being treated HUMANELY

First off, I've read some of your other posts on this topic, and CHARGED is not the same as GUILTY. Look them up: they're two very different things.

Second, the transfer to Leavenworth of someone who has NOT been tried is HIGHLY unusual. For reference, see the first sentence of the article below, with the understanding that military detainees still have rank and pay until/unless convicted by court-martial. Leavenworth is not a "detention facility", it is a maximum security PRISON, for CONVICTED military criminals, and Manning should not be housed there at this time (though the new place is probably nicer than where he was at, as it's only about 7 years old).

usmilitary.about.com...

He probably IS being held on suicide watch, either because of some statement he made/action he took, or because the military THINKS there could be an issue. However, suicide watch is only supposed to be 72 hours, pending review, and the reviews are supposed to be conducted regularly, and the detainee is supposed to be removed from the watch as soon as he is deemed no longer a threat to himself (psychologist call, make of it what you will).

In regard to the 3 meals a day, that may or may not be the case. The USDB has used reduced rations as punishment at times, and the food quality may or may not be "a meal".

In regards to his isolation, he would almost have to be in isolation at the USDB, but not for fear of the other inmates' actions (most would actually applaud his actions, as there is a high percentage of inmates that dislike the military and its prison system). The reason for the isolation would be that he's being sent there as a DETAINEE, not a CONVICT. And, if he IS on suicide watch, he would have to be kept isolated, in his cell, and checked on every 15 minutes or so, possibly with a camera on him 24/7.

Hope that helps some of you get an idea of what's going on here. It's not ALL abnormal, but it's not ALL normal, either.

reply to post by macman


Very nicely put. (I got the PM, too. Thx)

Okay, yes, I'm a pacifist - but I have a deep respect for the men and women who are willing to take up arms and follow orders to keep the rest of us safe. I get it, I really, truly do. And I thank out loud every person I see in BDUs, whether in the grocery, on the train, at a hotel, wherever. I THANK them, to their faces.

I agree with you about the personality requirements - my husband was raised on a small ranch, the youngest of 3 boys whose parents were "townies". He enlisted with the NG partly because of his admiration for his grandfather, who helped free Dachau's prisoners, and for his father and uncle, and because of his very deeply-seated commitment to do what is right, and also so he could go to college. I have heard all the stories of how he "taught" others to respect women and the downtrodden as a youth. I have also listened to him shouting, screaming, in his sleep, even endured being subject to his fight-reactions while he dreams his ugly dreams.

He has never killed anyone, and even so, his training scarred him in many ways - he is diagnosed with PTSD, has an acute psych reaction to ANY chemical smell (result of his training in the "gas" chamber"). He has taken international fugitives out of circulation, he has been selected as personal security for mucky-mucks, and turned DOWN the opp to go the Ranger route, because he eventually wanted a quiet family life, and KNEW that Ranger school would ruin him (not everyone, maybe, but he knew it would ruin HIM) to succeed as a family man.

He was an expert marksman, an E-5 Sergeant with an assigned fire team, and he has wept many, many times for his friends who have died as soldiers. He has proven leadership skills, and knows that a leader MUST be willing to do whatever he is asking his team to do, and not just shout orders.

Having said all that, he has taught me to shoot, drilled me on hand-to-hand combat techniques, and insists that I know and practice those skills in the event I need to know them. I understand about fighting to win - "never, ever assume anything less than one of you is going to die and decide it is not going to be you."

Now, back to PFC Manning's detention and the reasons for it.

I have stated before that if someone sees something being done and believes it in his/her heart to be wrong, morally WRONG, and does nothing about it, they become part of the problem. Manning is a youth, not even biologically an adult yet (brain doesn't mature until late 20s), and that fact alone compromises his ability to use sound judgment -

It seems to me that the military would do well to screen its volunteers based not on just push-ups and the ability to yell HOOOAH, but also on basic maturity, character, sensitivity levels (some are less resilient than others to acute stress), and smarts. We all know the stories of soldiers who have snapped, who have raped, killed, posed for pics with the remains of those vanquished, etc.

My gripe is that the breaking-down and rebuilding process is detrimental to a young person's development. They are kids, snatched up at the peak of their physical prowess and turned into something other than they would have been had they NOT been militarized.

It will be easy for anyone still following this thread to throw that back at me - that I'm implying PFC Manning was right or wrong, that I disagree with what he did, that I wouldn't know the stuff he exposed without him -

Yes, I want to know the truth. And yes, I want wars to STOP.
But, as a counsellor, I also know that attacking Manning for exposing atrocities and deep dark secret TRUTHS is the equivalent of what we learn as "helpers" for those who've been damaged emotionally --

You can stand downstream all the live-long day, pull out one after another the thrashing, drowning victims that float shrieking past, dry them off, feed them, calm them down, give them a swimming lesson, and then send them on their way -- OR

You can go upstream to the bridge where they are being flung into the water, and stop the people doing the flinging.


Primary problem solution rather than secondary or tertiary. He is a victim of the system that created him.
The SYSTEM needs changing, and the people in charge should be HONORABLE enough to 'fess up to what they're doing that was so awful that Manning felt compelled to tattle. And then STOP DOING IT.

It's shameful that he's being reduced to a scapegoat for the wrong actions of others.

reply to post by wildtimes

You and I agree on alot.
The Military does Psych evaluations on people with a Secret or higher clearance. So, they do screen.
I don't agree that most kids are "snatched up". I made my own choice, and so did they. It is still an all volunteer military. Some may be immature, but so make a broad sweeping statement that they are kids is just false. Are most entering into the Military 18/19 years old, yes. But, those same people, like myself, having not gone into the Military would have ended up more then likely at College. Now, College, with no structure, most kids there on their parents dime and a large portion dabbling in drugs, alcohol and sex only to encounter Liberal thinking professors does not sound like a better choice to or for me. Just my opinion.
I do not take pity on your relatives, nor feel sorry for them, as if I did, they would more then likely give me a metaphorical smack to the head.
We are Military Vets. We did what was asked and needed in situations. I, and 99% of Vets do not want anyone's pity. I smile and handshake is good.
I would encourage my kids and anyone else to join the Military. I would also advise them of what they may go through and/or deal with. My final statement would be that if they do decide to join, fulfill the commitment that they signed to.
As for Manning, he was mature enough to knowingly hack his way into a Top Secret Computer system, then he was mature enough to know that this action was wrong, was punishable and would not bring him a lot of positives in life.
Yes, what he found seems to be a cover-up. I say seems because there is a lot left to be answered in the video.
Has he been turned into a scapegoat? No. He still did the right thing the wrong way.
If it is deemed that the actions of the people involved with the helicopter incident were wrong, then they should be punished as well. All involved.
But, Manning not only released this info, but a lot more info as well. Again, knowingly doing so. The continuance of a wrongful action, and not just in one action but many actions shows he knew what he was doing.
I think there is a huge flaw in society now days. People are not held responsible for their actions. If it is not some lawyer talking about a criminals poor upbringing, it is a doctor pitching some idea that because there is bad influence all around, then the person only knew wrong.
We all know right from wrong. Some choose to ignore it, some just don't care.

I am not condemning Manning, he did that for himself by his own actions.

As army intelligence analyst he was flitting through classified military documents at the U.S. Forward Operating Base Hammer, near Baghdad. Reports say Manning was glued to his system 14 hours of the day, reading up secret military and diplomatic documents that made him disillusioned by his country's foreign policy.

Among others, U.S. linguist and intellectual Noam Chomsky has joined the campaign to support Manning. According to a post in www.bradleymanning.org, Chomsky wrote: “It is a privilege to join the campaign to support Bradley Manning for his courage and integrity in serving his country by helping make the government accountable to its citizens, and to inform the world of what its people should know.”

www.ibtimes.com...

Okay, I have done my homework. To be very honest, I had heard of PFC Manning, and of course Wikileaks, but I had NOT investigated the matter very far. The OP was intended to bring up the subject.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it clear he was an "intelligence analyst" who had ACCESS to these docs?

Disillusioned by his country's foreign policy, it says.

Further, I understand he is a person of small stature - smaller than I am, even, which is pretty little - that he had just endured a romantic crisis of some kind, that he felt like a failure, and that he contacted this guy Lamo who was a hacker of notoriety, who apparently turned him in.

TODAY, there is a NEW wikileaks schedule regarding Gitmo. Should the person who "leaked" those 68,000 docs be likewise treated as a pariah?

Okay..... back to our debate, macman.

It is biologically proven that the brain continues to develop into maturity during late teens and early twenties at LEAST. Perhaps we should not say "brainwashed", but "persuaded." My specialty as a clinician was in brain-training of youngsters. I presented at a national conference regarding this subject, and have seen nothing to dispute the research saying that the brain fires and hardwires synapses necessary to the survival of the young person in whatever situation or circumstance they are. A jungle-dwelling child in Amazonia will need different skills than one in, say, suburban Chicago. A soldier will need different skills than a civilian. Granted that.

The trouble is that once the military interaction has ended, the brain doesn't revert back to what it would have been without very very intensive concentration, relearning, and training.
www.act4jj.org/media/factsheets/factsheet
I spoke at length regarding this whole issue to my veteran spouse yesterday - he offered up some comments that echoed yours: "Different standard" being the primary one I recall.

He also subscribes to "situation will dictate", and wanted to know more about the details of what and how and why Manning did what he did.

It appears to me that Manning was in crisis mode on many levels, and he believed what he found was immoral and should not be covered up. OTOH, I see also where he is quoted as saying he was going to unleash anarchy.
www.nydailynews.com... Either way, it appears that he was definitely in crisis, and perhaps the people in charge should have noticed that before he acted in a way that ruined his life and jeapardized the "security" of information.

And in the end, it wasn't he who published the info. He told a "hacker" about it, and someone else, somewhere else, decided to publish it.


Now, as a clinician, my duty was confidentiality unless the client was a danger to himself or others.
Apparently Adrian Lamo, to whom Manning gave this tip-off, decided it needed to be brought to the attention of TPTB.

But who published it?
Wikileaks has a fund set aside to defend him, and as quoted above, his supporter Choam says he acted with courage and integrity.

I dunno. I'm just troubled by this whole thing.

edit on 25-4-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

EDIT after checking the links work. You might have to copy and paste the factsheet above...sorry.

edit on 25-4-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

reply to post by wildtimes


I gotta say, you definitely did some great research. From my understanding, and from what I have read, it was portrayed as Manning hacked his way into databases, with help from a hacker.
Yes, he was an analyst, but at a Secret Security Level, and I believe what he had found was within a Top Secret Database.

But, if that is wrong, and the now famous Helicopter video was indeed part of his work load, then he is guilty of divulging Top Secret Info, and not willful entrance into secured areas.

It does change things.

Now, on to the development issue. Who says that going to College is any better?
One has structure, the other does not. One is usually lead by more right leaning people, the other by left leaning.
One provides OTJ training, the other is mostly theory.
Yes, within the Military you may have to fight, that is the trade off.
I still would do the military again, as I see no real use for college, unless you are becoming a Doctor.

Now, on to the development issue. Who says that going to College is any better?

reply to post by macman


Development is development, regardless of the youth's social system or environment. I know at one point I entered thoughts about college vs not - I must have deleted that bit. (In fact, very early yesterday I posted an entire reply to yours, which disappeared after I thought I posted it. oh well).

Okay - in that "lost" (or imagined?) response, I mentioned my two kids. One earned a full ride to a prestigious university (And I mean, FULL RIDE, we the family have not been asked for anymore than a few $100s here and there to supplement) based on public school high school performance, and is graduating in late June with a MS in Materials Engineering. Full-fledged scientist, and with excellent prospects for employment in the tech/alternative fuel cells area. Has decided to go with Master's right away in Journalism - an engineer who is also a journalist (as opposed to a "scientist" only who might not be able to address audiences who lack lingo and expert knowledge already).

The other kid chose not to pursue higher education, in fact the public school system was an extremely poor fit socially speaking - now, kid 2 is just as bright as kid 1; they were both tested and put into "gifted" programs to keep them challenged beyond the mainstream classroom pace of learning.

Both are extremely articulate, have excellent critical thinking skills, and are flourishing - one as a student, the other as an employee (working two jobs). Both are well-adjusted and adaptable, flexible and as sensible as can be expected. They are 22 and 20, respectively. And BOTH still make errors in judgment.

My husband attended basic training, completed it, and then returned to finish high school after he was done - and it changed him FOR EVER. He, too, later attended college (computer science) and works as an IT professional, BUT he has difficulty with civilian social behaviors and norms in a corporate environment. His military training overrode his "social skills" development, and he has to fight off rigid thinking, and also work very hard at perceiving what others are trying to get across.

I attribute this to extreme intelligence and exquisite sensitivity (oddly enough - he's one of the most intelligent and sensitive men I've ever met, similar in both ways to both of my kids), coupled with military indoctrination and "breakdown" he endured during programming/training (whatever) to be a soldier. His communication skills suffered, and his insight is quite skewed. He can't read others very easily, and he can't read himself often.

So, those are my three closest peeps - my husband and my two kids. One military & college, one college only right after High School, and one who decided to leave the public system and finish education in the real world and through alternative venues. All three are successful, in very different ways.

The college kid struggles with reality in terms of budgeting and frivolous spending vs penny-pinching. While not from an affluent family the atmosphere at the college is FILLED with students like you describe, who are handed everything (they actually call their parents "Rents". Heh) My kid, in that respect, does not fit in, having been taught to work for what one wants and to not spend beyond one's means. It's been a struggle, but I've seen enormous growth between freshman year and graduation spring.

The working kid has excellent people skills, is well-liked by peers and management, and is comfortable with adults and people of the same age equally.

I actually wanted college kid to work for a year before starting college, but was disregarded on that.

Now - for myself, I have a BA in Liberal Arts and am fluent in Spanish. Twenty years later I went to Graduate School and earned a Masters in social work. The foreign language paired with social work landed me a few jobs at non-profit (read: low-paying) salaries, and although I enjoyed it til I burned out, my BA has been more responsible for my working path - but only because the Spanish-speaking population has exploded in the last 20 years.

Before that, I had virtually only office skills that were transferrable to the workplace, having worked as an admin and retail clerk while in college.

So, I totally agree. In fact, I think college is exactly that - only necessary for those heading for academia or a profession.

I think that trades are the smartest move, actually. Learning a viable skill like auto mechanics, plumbing, electrician, heavy equipment, welding, whatever - seems to be a far more lucrative way to build a stable work history.

Anyhow - kinda off topic regarding PFC Manning - but hope I illustrated verbosely how military vs college vs temperament vs stage of development are all "mixed in". You can't really separate one from the others. Temperament, learning style, communication style, moral integrity, judgment - so much of it is completely individual, and no one method of "education" or "training" is right for everyone.

Okay, thanks again for your responses - very thoughtful debate, and I have enjoyed it.

reply to post by wildtimes


What you have described, regarding the kids is that they encounter issues with social interaction no matter what. I think that we all do. As we move from one place to another, interact with a person or families from other areas, there are differences. The fact that your husband has some issues is due to most don't know what the Military life is or entails. I, personally, do not see it as your husband having a problem, I see it as the most of those he interacts with have the problem.
The military taught us to see a problem, formulate a solution, implement the solution and complete the task. Do it with old/outdated equipment and lots of oversight and restrictions. Plus, do it without complaining much.
The rest of the world was never taught that.
I am biased towards the Military/Veteran way of thinking and I do not apologize for it.

I do agree that this has been a great debate. I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Give your Vet a big hug, as we love that.

since my comment has been banned-i will state for all brain dead people who love the hero worship of the soldier bull to go read their bibles instead of placing them on a shelf--god says its murder so i believe its murder. only exception for killing is for personal defence of ones OWN COUNTRY. ON ITS OWN SOIL! and for your person if you are attacted by a mugger, rapist, murderer---the bible says you are all murderers, and i believe it also. Just go ahead and attack manning for doing good, getting the truth out and all those responsible will be judged . These are not my words, People who say they are for god and country DONT KNOW WHAT GOD SAYS -OR WHAT THEIR COUNTRY STANDS FOR, They just listen to lies instead of doing their own research-BRAINWASHED-Its hero worship of the soldier. Hope you get lots of pats on you back, you will need them.

Originally posted by itsawild1
since my comment has been banned-i will state for all brain dead people who love the hero worship of the soldier bull to go read their bibles instead of placing them on a shelf--god says its murder so i believe its murder. only exception for killing is for personal defence of ones OWN COUNTRY. ON ITS OWN SOIL!

Or if you happen to work on sabbath. Or you have cut the hair on your temples. Or...