Bible verses clearly condone the Killing of Gays and Witches.

Originally posted by Garfee

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

Again as I stated, The law of Jesus surpasses the law of Moses

Oh so it's true because YOU "stated" it? Haha! Why don't you get on to writing the next chaper in the bible if you're that good? Don't worry, the rest of it was writte by people too, just please be creative ands add dragons.

Oh we have to finish this book before we can start writing a new one my friend. Do not worry though, we are in the last chapter.



Dragons would be cool in the next book. Keep that idea, I am sure we can work it in!

Here is the Sermon on the Mount where Christ explains the differences between his word and the word of the Pharisees.

The Sermon on the Mount

It's pretty simple really.

With Love,

Your Brother

to sum things up and extiguish any further confusion..

Christ .. His message and Commandment given is ' Love your enemies '

now , certainly the Lord wouldn't command us to ' love our enemies ' if the old laws applied. good

>King James Version

43)Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

that's love baby!

reply to post by tinfoilman


I'll agree with most of this - the latter bits, primarily - but YHVH only gave one law. OK, fine, set of laws.

Two separate covenants, though, and Jeremiah prophesied - the second being where god would write the law on the hearts of the people.

You do get at my general point, though, in that HOW to follow that law (as well as addressing specific mandates within it) is up for further review, on my part at least. By definition, sin is transgression of the law, and Christ never referred to giving any new law.

I think the testimony of the earliest church is quite instructive here, as they all continued to observe the law of Moshe as well as meeting on the sabbath. Verses alluding otherwise (*'lord's day') get very fuzzy, especially when you get into the greek (mia sabbaton vs. protos sabbaton and how they are translated - still trying to sort through this and have neglected it for years).

The moves away from typical jewish observances started with the disputes between Paul and Peter's groups, trying to decide how to handle the gentile influx (and that was mainly in regards to circumcision), with the BIG moves coming significantly later with the influence of Rome.

reply to post by Praetorius


It says all this right in the Bible.
You follow the law by faith, not by works.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

You're already saved. It is a free gift. If your faith is strong you will wish to do the works on your own. You don't have to do anything to be saved. It has already been given.

Jesus did refer to giving a new law. Matthew 5, "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

right after that Jesus gives the new commandments. You just have to read farther down the page. Murder, adultery, divorce and everything. It's all right there. But like just nobody notices that part of the page I guess.

Of course the early church continued to follow the law. The apostles and the early church were Jews. That's how they grew up and were raised. But for gentiles these traditions don't apply.

For gentiles there was no law at all, until Jesus gave them the new law. The old OT law doesn't apply to gentiles, and never did. At any time. EVER!

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by JerryB08

 

When was the last witch hanged in Western Europe?
When was the witchcraft act repealed in Britain?
People are still tortured and killed today as witches - just see Nigeria and the harm US missionaries have caused.

That's funny, my girlfriend and I were talking about just that the other day. Religion in western society has had no choice but to evolve with our logic and use of reason. Eventually we found things like crusades and witch hunts to be terribly unreasonable, especially since the Bible has no basis in reality.

But missionaries take a superstitious religion to countries populated by superstitious people, and then everyone is surprised when the locals begin burning witches. Africans are simply at the same mind set that Christians were in through the 1500's.

reply to post by tinfoilman

The old OT law doesn't apply to gentiles, and never did. At any time. EVER!

Neither does anything in the New Testament. I bet if you traced my lineage you would find that my ancestors worshiped Odin. Why? Because my ancestors were not Semitic people, the Semitic people had their own God. Its really ironic to me how the entire world was convinced that the only "true" God, was a Semite God, and that a particular Semitic people are his chosen one's...imagine that.

Although, I would certainly wager that Odin could kick Yahweh's arse any day of the week.

If fairy tales were true, of course.

reply to post by Praetorius

You do get at my general point, though, in that HOW to follow that law (as well as addressing specific mandates within it) is up for further review, on my part at least. By definition, sin is transgression of the law, and Christ never referred to giving any new law.

Only a fool uses something like the Bible as a tool for establishing any law. It doesn't matter what the Bible says, its all irrelevant whether its the Old or New Testaments.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Peace, brother, I mean no argument, just discussion as I'm seeking truth and understanding.

You'll notice in this section you reference, though, that Yahushua (Jesus, sorry - I'm a 'namer') directly refers to 9 of the original 10 commandments from Exodus ch. 20, and I believe he only omitted the sabbath as was taken for granted and in common practice. Here he just showed his authority to instruct in a re-interpretation (a bit more strict than originally, actually) of these commandments.

As I mentioned before, I agree the law will save no one, but Paul declare that sin is transgression of the law (emphasis *the* law), and only one law was given by our Father.

As far as the OT law not applying, I'll admit, that is where I'm caught up. Pretty much all of the ceremonial law is out the window regardless, as they're contingent on other factors (temple in Jerusalem, etc.), but the moral dictates composed most of it and this is where the problems with the book of James came into play (faith vs. works, etc.). I intend no drama, but there is information out there that calls some of this into question that I'm honestly trying to settle for myself, if nothing else.

Thanks for your input - in general, I side with you, but with the way my brain works I'm always looking for more and these are deep & convoluted issues on some levels - and that's what I always get sucked into. I might just be wired to find problems with what I want to believe (hence my nickname elsewhere "I am cognitive dissonance - oy vey), but it's where I'm at.

Regardless, grace and peace to you. I truly believe that, even while I'm trying to sort these things out for myself, living in love first to him, then to all of you, fulfills the law and the rest is just details (Paul warned us not to get caught up in petty disputes) - so I know there is mitigation on his part. So I don't mean to shake anyone's faith here, these struggles are mainly for myself. Be well!

reply to post by semperfortis


so because our hearts were hard.... we needed to murder people and children for god? Thats a stupid thing to say.

Seems like it teaching tolerance would be the path to softening a heart.... no genocide and infantacide.

reply to post by dalan.


First off, not when you're talking about spiritual law.

Secondly, then I suppose effectively all of western civilization was built by fools as a great many laws have been based on the words of the bible for...a multitude of centuries my friend.

I'd personally like to say I think it worked out somewhat better than other nations who didn't base their laws on such, and saw the rise of Pol Pot, Stalin, and the Kims of North Korea.

Let me know if you have anything else to add here, and be well

Old covenant law vs new covenant law. More too the scriptures than just the first few books, keep reading till you finish the whole book. Old covenant law was the law of the Law of 'sin and death' which we are no longer under.

Romans 8:2 "For the torah(law) of the Spirit of the life in Messiah Yahuwshuwah has set me free from the torah of sin and death."

We are now taught to love one another, believe in our Master Yahuwshuwah haMachiach(Messiah), give freely and many other things. We also need works, cause our faith will be proven by our works, faith without works is dead.

James 2:24-26 You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the whore declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.

Believing will not save you alone, even the demons and devil believe their is Creator and Messiah, but their works rewards them death or life.

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

Again as I stated, The law of Jesus surpasses the law of Moses

There is a verse I've been thinking about, according to the bible, these words have been spoken by Jesus:
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
Now, I doubt that Jesus stuttered when he spoke these words. Either this verse is or it isn't, a law of Jesus because to me it doesn't sound merely like a helpful suggestion..so, most Christians I've talked to say it's impossible to be perfect, do you believe Jesus, or do you believe people such as my pastor who says that no one is perfect and that the only time that "we" will be perfect is when we die and get our new bodies...but I know that Jesus wasn't telling said verse to dead people, what say you?

Originally posted by Wonders
There is a verse I've been thinking about, according to the bible, these words have been spoken by Jesus:
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
Now, I doubt that Jesus stuttered when he spoke these words. Either this verse is or it isn't, a law of Jesus because to me it doesn't sound merely like a helpful suggestion..so, most Christians I've talked to say it's impossible to be perfect, do you believe Jesus, or do you believe people such as my pastor who says that no one is perfect and that the only time that "we" will be perfect is when we die and get our new bodies...but I know that Jesus wasn't telling said verse to dead people, what say you?

Excellent point my friend! People love to make so much out of perfection. It isn't hard really. Love everyone, judge no one. That is all you have power over. Everything else about you is created by God. He makes no mistakes.

You are as dumb or as smart as he wants you. You are as tall or short as he wants you. You are endowed with every physical trait and mental faculty you are meant to have. So, love all and judge none.

Then you are perfect, even as the father in heaven is perfect.



With Love,

Your Brother

P.S. I mistakenly left out that one needed to give up there material wealth as well.

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Of course, that is the purpose of the Plan at the bottom of my posts.

Originally posted by Wonders

There is a verse I've been thinking about, according to the bible, these words have been spoken by Jesus:
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
Now, I doubt that Jesus stuttered when he spoke these words. Either this verse is or it isn't, a law of Jesus because to me it doesn't sound merely like a helpful suggestion..so, most Christians I've talked to say it's impossible to be perfect, do you believe Jesus, or do you believe people such as my pastor who says that no one is perfect and that the only time that "we" will be perfect is when we die and get our new bodies...but I know that Jesus wasn't telling said verse to dead people, what say you?

If you believe that Jesus had a divine message, you believe him. The problem is that Paul came along and changed a bunch of stuff, and made being Christian a whole lot easier by promising Jesus did it all for you. And................thats not what Jesus says. Jesus gives you a whole lotta work to do, and he says it will be hard, and that only a few will take that harder narrow path.

Your pastor is following Pauline doctrine. If I had to lay bets with my immortal soul, I would follow Jesus and take that harder, narrower road less traveled of trying to live as Jesus lived, and do as he asked us to do. But thats just me.

So if someone were a gay witch then they were seriously screwed.

reply to post by Praetorius


No argument intended. I'm just saying how I read it. I believe Jesus wanted to give the word down to the gentiles too.

Stuff like the 10 commandments Jesus repeated. It's not like everything in the OT went away. Jesus took some of the stuff from the OT and made a NT covenant for gentiles that didn't have any covenant at all before Jesus came.

This is the main difference between the OT and the NT. The law is still there, and everyone fails at it, but the difference is in how we handle the failures.

Like you don't have to kill homosexuals for failing cause their sin has already been paid for by Jesus. Just like you don't have to kill me for my sins, because my sins have been paid for too. The sin is still a sin, but we handle it a different way. We turn to Jesus for forgiveness instead of hitting each other in the head with rocks.

Not that the OT has been changed, it's still the same. However, Jesus' sacrifice lets us handle the situation in a more constructive way. It has simply opened up another option for us. So, a better way of saying it perhaps is not that the law has changed, but how it applies to us, and what it requires us to do is different. We have an easier way to deal with sin than say, animal sacrifice. We can just turn to Jesus instead.

So, in a way you could say it doesn't matter what the OT says as long as you follow the NT you'll be fine. And the NT doesn't say to kill homosexuals. It says to love the sinner and hate the sin. You don't have to kill him because Jesus paid for his sins too. So, you'd be punishing him for nothing. Jesus already took that punishment onto himself just like he took the punishment for everyone's sins.

That's the general idea behind the NT anyway.

reply to post by Mister_Bit


Thanks for that. I'll check it out.

Not sure what a "witch" was back then, though, since that word was used to describe certain people in the british isles who were unknown to the writers of the Bible, I think...

Heh,

reply to post by dalan.


Well this is a hypothetical assuming the NT is true and God is real. Of course you can always say, well God isn't real, but if he's not real then what's the point? Obviously the OT doesn't apply if God isn't real, but that's not much of a conversation.

The cool thing though is Jesus still pretty much works even if God isn't real. Think about it. Here you got people stoning homosexuals and women for some God that doesn't even exist. And then Jesus comes and subverts it by saying he's God. And tells them not to do it anymore.

Either way he was still trying to save us from something, even if it was just our own stupidity. I mean if he would of just said, there is no god, nobody would have listened. They all already believed in God. But by saying he was God, well that opens a new avenue entirely.

Of course people are still dumb, and still kill each other over religion, but if you listen to what Jesus was saying he was just trying to get people to be less obsessed with the OT law and instead treat each other better. Maybe when they told him he was the son of god he was just like, lolwut? Okay, suuuurre. Alright, if I'm god then do this! Love each other lol. Get along! Stop stoning women! Treat the gentiles better! Yada yada.

Anyway, I believe in God, but if someone doesn't, what Jesus did and tried to do was still a pretty nice gesture.

reply to post by Amaterasu

How many folks know that King James (who commissioned the King James Bible and to whom it was dedicated) loved men and had sex with them? At the age of thirteen James fell madly in love with his male cousin Esme Stuart whom he made Duke of Lennox. James deferred to Esme to the consternation of his ministers. In 1582 James was kidnapped and forced to issue a proclamation against his lover and send him back to France. Later, James fell in love with a poor young Scotsman named Robert Carr. "The king leans on his [Carr's] arm, pinches his cheeks, smooths his ruffled garment, and when he looks upon Carr, directs his speech to others." (Thomas Howard, Earl of Suffolk, in a letter, 1611) Carr eventually ended the relationship after which the king expressed his dissatisfaction in a letter to Carr, "I leave out of this reckoning your long creeping back and withdrawing yourself from lying in my chamber, notwithstanding my many hundred times earnest soliciting you to the contrary...Remember that (since I am king) all your being, except your breathing and soul, is from me." (See The Letters of King James I & VI, ed., G. P. V. Akrigg, Univ. of Calif. Press, 1984. Also see Royal Family, Royal Lovers: King James of England and Scotland, David M. Bergeron, Univ. of Missouri Press, 1991)

wiki.answers.com...

incest and gay

If there was a god he obviously gave the ten comandments to be used
NOT knowing for sure there is a god and NOT knowing for sure there is a heaven
so unless he is a complete TARD
the only conclusion is that these rule are for common sense getting along...
in the place where we know for sure
the here and now.


the rest is as the jesuits say
"Give us a child till he is seven and he is ours for life"

pologies for the late edits
can't read can't spell

reply to post by Gemwolf


What Bible/version are you quoting? I wanna research this.