Arizona enacts ban on abortions based on gender, race

Originally posted by silent thunder
Ummm...not sure what to think here, but something about this whole thing seems strange to me. They are not banning the actual act of abortion per se, but banning "abortion for certain reasons." But it doesn't seem in practice that this will have any real-world consequences beyond legal wrangling. After all, if a woman did want an abortion for one of those reasons, she could just go to the dr and get one without stating her reasons, right? So in practice I don't see how this law is really going to change anything. Even if somebody want to get an abortion for one of the "illegal reasons," they could just refrain from stating it out loud and who would ever be able to prove anything to the contrary?

Good point... It may be that this is simply an easy political win to say "we've banned abortions (kinda)"

Originally posted by The Sword
Gotta love Arizona.

The world's ending and they're still hung up on abortion and illegal immigration.

What a bunch of silly bastards. May god have mercy on them when they finally wake up.

Some would say the world is ending because more people are not facing the tough questions like Arizona is.

Aborting based on race or gender? Someone earlier commented they could not have a "non-caucasion" baby? I hope they know the solution to that! How about not getting pregnant by someone that you wouldn't want to have a baby with?

Abortion should not be a form of birth control. Having a baby is a woman's choice, no doubt. But that choice needs to be made at the time of sex, not several months later when a baby has a heartbeat and brain function!

I think Abortions are important for health-related reasons, and I believe the mother's life is more important than the babies, if a Dr. is put in a position to have to choose. BUT, I don't believe an abortion should ever be an option for a healthy mother and baby.

(Some would say rape is an exception, and I can agree with that, but the decision should be made in the days following the rape, not months and months down the road.)

For the record, my wife had to have an emergency C-section at 6 months along in her pregnancy, and the result is now a beautiful 3 year old boy! Some women are having abortions when their baby is more developed than mine was at birth! Anyone considering it is welcome to come meet my son, and then decide if that is really just a "growth" and not a real baby!

reply to post by DrChuck


Chuck, I couldn't agree with you more. This is just a way for the radicals in Arizona to try and circumvent the law that is already in place with abortion. It is beginning to catch on in other states as well. These conservative states that are anit abortion are creating laws which are making abortion harder to achieve. Here in Virginia, all abortion clinics now have to be held up to the standards of hospitals. Thus meaning that if it was a clinic with normal sized hallways, they have to close down and make the halls legal size for a gurney and such. Ways to shut them down and put them out of business. Look at South Dakota. They are making it mandatory for you to see a therapist about how this abortion is going to effect you. Absolute garbage. It is the choice of the woman and that is it... Good Post..

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Having a baby is a woman's choice, no doubt. But that choice needs to be made at the time of sex, not several months later when a baby has a heartbeat and brain function!

So, having a baby is a woman's choice as long as she makes that choice when YOU think it should be made? I don't understand the position of "It's YOUR choice... as long as I control when you make that choice."

You know, everyone draws their own personal line somewhere. Even you say it's OK for a woman to kill her baby if it's a result of rape. You draw your line there. And even then, you want control of the timing of her choice.. I don't understand how we're supposed to have usable laws on this issue when everyone wants the law to align with their own personal morals and beliefs.

BUT, I don't believe an abortion should ever be an option for a healthy mother and baby.

Fine. Then don't have one.

Have you given thought to how this law will be enforced? Can you not see that this is just pandering to the right? ANY law that restricts a woman's choice is going to be embraced by the right. And even though there's NO indication that people in AZ are having abortions based on race or sex, this law is being forced into existence.

For the record, my wife had to have an emergency C-section at 6 months along in her pregnancy, and the result is now a beautiful 3 year old boy!

That's wonderful. For you. For someone else, it might ruin their life. And you would take the choice away from her? Aren't you glad that YOU had the choice about your reproduction instead of the law telling you what to do???

I'll dredge up my old signature for this case: People don't REALLY want to live in a free society, else they would support the rights of those with whom they disagree.

Ironically the gender that fought the hardest for abortion rights is often the target for abortion, especially in certain cultures.
I wonder how women feel about that?
Abortion that promotes the genocide of unwanted female babies.
A law that stops that, really how could a woman be against that?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


You misinterpreted my post, or intentionally misrepresented it.

It is a woman (or a man)'s choice to not conceive a baby. That happens at the time of sex. That is when we all have free choice. After a baby is growing inside of her, and is capable of surviving outside of her, then it is no longer a choice at all.

In the instance of rape, I did NOT say it was ok to kill the baby. I said in the days following a rape there was an opportunity, but not weeks or months later. We now have anti-conception drugs like RU486 and "morning after" pills. There are also hormone procedures. If it is truly a rape, then the woman can immediately take precautions, but once a baby is "ALIVE" and growing inside of her, then it is too late.

The only part of my opinion, that I think could be controversial, is putting a higher value on the mother's life than the baby's. In my opinion, and risks being equal, the doctor should choose the life of the mother over the life of the child. Those would be very rare instances, and I understand if anyone wants to debate that point.

If a 5 or 6 month termed baby is capable of surviving outside the womb, then killing it is murder or at least manslaughter, and the courts agree! If a woman is attacked and a fetus is injured or killed, the person faces criminal charges for killing that fetus, even if it was an accident like a DUI crash. So, it is completely ridiculous to put one person in jail for accidentally injuring an unborn child, while at the same time championing the right of someone else to intentionally end that unborn child's life? How can anyone honestly defend that disparity?

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Ironically the gender that fought the hardest for abortion rights is often the target for abortion, especially in certain cultures.
I wonder how women feel about that?
Abortion that promotes the genocide of unwanted female babies.
A law that stops that, really how could a woman be against that?

Hello? This is the US. Male babies aren't favored over female babies. There's just as much chance of a woman wanting to abort a male baby as a female here.

How could a woman be against having her choice taken away? Gosh, that's a hard one, isn't it?

Arizona continues to show the United States how bat$*** crazy it really is. We get it Jan Brewer your a ULTRA-conservative. That state really needs to build a wall around itself and cut off communication from the rest of the world.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
You misinterpreted my post, or intentionally misrepresented it.

Your posts speaks for themselves.

It is a woman (or a man)'s choice to not conceive a baby. That happens at the time of sex. That is when we all have free choice. After a baby is growing inside of her, and is capable of surviving outside of her, then it is no longer a choice at all.

It's NOT a woman's choice to conceive or not. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. She doesn't choose not to conceive. If that were the case, abortion wouldn't be an issue. She could just choose not to get pregnant.

She does choose whether or not to have sex. So, are you saying a person should only have sex when they want to have a baby? After all, contraception is not 100%.

In the instance of rape, I did NOT say it was ok to kill the baby. I said in the days following a rape there was an opportunity, but not weeks or months later.

Conception can occur HOURS after sex.

Conception, in this context, is assumed to mean the fertilization of the egg by the sperm. The physical act of sexual intercourse, which is necessary for conception, can occur anywhere from a week to a couple of hours before an egg becomes fertilized.

Source

So, if a woman is raped, she has possibly hours to find out if she's pregnant by visiting a doctor and getting tested (because a home test won't work). And then she has to make a possibly life-altering decision in this short time? That's TOTALLY unrealistic!

We now have anti-conception drugs like RU486 and "morning after" pills.

RU486 terminates a pregnancy AFTER conception. It IS an abortion. Source The morning after pill prevents conception, and it's not a sure thing.

If it is truly a rape, then the woman can immediately take precautions, but once a baby is "ALIVE" and growing inside of her, then it is too late.

Too late by YOUR timeline. Fortunately, you'll never be in that position. Another reason why men's opinions shouldn't dictate abortion laws.

If a woman is attacked and a fetus is injured or killed, the person faces criminal charges for killing that fetus, even if it was an accident like a DUI crash. ... How can anyone honestly defend that disparity?

This pregnant woman who gets attacked is planning on having her baby, right? She's building a family and the life inside of her is her child. She may know the gender, have the name picked out and be putting the nursery together. It's her child.

This is a totally different situation than if a woman is pregnant and doesn't want the baby and is planning on an abortion. She doesn't have the emotional attachment to the life in her as does a woman building a family.

And just because the law agrees with something doesn't make it right.

reply to post by getreadyalready

If a woman is attacked and a fetus is injured or killed, the person faces criminal charges for killing that fetus, even if it was an accident like a DUI crash. ... How can anyone honestly defend that disparity?

Yeah, there are disparities. One such disparity from pro-life camp that often pops up is claiming that abortion is murder, then want to allow it in cases of rape.

I believe that for abortion laws to be internally consistent, there should be only one clear limit where right to life begins, without such disparities. Killing foetii before this limit should not be murder under any circumstances, even when killed by attacker, and should be allowed for whatever reason mother wants. Killing foetii after this limit should be considered murder by law as with any other person, even in cases of rape.

Then the question is, where does this limit lie? At conception? At the beginning of sentience? At the beginning of viability? At birth?

Originally posted by MoonChild02
This is an issue, especially when it's done by those who came from a male-centered country, such as China. While most women who come from over there don't want the abortions, the men do, and push the women to abort, because they still have the one child idea on their mind, and in their culture, a son is a blessing, and a daughter is a curse. Some (note I said some, not all) Mexican men are the same way: if the child is not a boy, they would rather kill her. There are white men who force their daughters to abort babies of other ethnicities, as well.

I would like to see some kind of statistical proof that immigrants in Arizona are prone to that activity, because honestly I'm just not buying it.

Out of most of the Mexicans I know, they're Catholic, and aborting any fetus is next to just saying to God "send me to hell, already!"

So... statistics please. Numbers. Facts. I wanna see 'em, because what you're saying disagrees with what I've seen out of the vast swathes of humanity I've been witness to.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


reply to post by Maslo


I am not one of those pro-lifers that will say abortion should be entirely taken off the table. I am against abortion the majority of the time, but I think it should be a viable last option in some instances, such as rape or health complications.

I do not think a 3rd trimester abortion should ever be allowed, except to save the life of the mother. In that instance, the baby would be "delievered via ceserean" not "aborted." A 2nd Trimester abortion should need a consensus of medical opinion, and a 1st trimester abortion should at least require some counseling beforehand.

Contraception is 99.9% effective, if it is done properly. I do not think it is a valid argument to say contraception fails. People fail, and if contraception fails it is usually the result of a person's error. A woman can "choose" whether or not to get pregnant, and so can a man. I worked in Child Support Enforcement for a few years, and it drove me crazy for stupid men to consider themselves "victims" of child support! How easy would it have been for them to aim a little differently for a few seconds? The only true "victim" is the child. Mothers and Fathers are responsible for their own actions. A woman should not be having unprotected sex with someone that she doesn't intend to get pregnant by, unless she is 100% confident in her birth control method.

Women, and Men have choices.....babies do not!

If a women wants to make the choice, make it before conception. If a man wants to make a choice, make it before conception. If someone wants to correct a mistake, and abort a baby,. do it after much deliberation and counseling, and do it within the first couple of months. If people cannot follow that simple process, then I see no problem with the government regulating their choices afterwards. They have surrendered their right to make good choices by failing at the time of sex, failing after an accident, and failing to take action promptly. After repeated failures, it seems appropriate to let an authority make the final decision.

And yes, I know this goes against most of my other beliefs about small government and less regulation. My opinion comes from experiences. I have regrets from abortion decisions as a teenager, and I have wonder at the miracle of my last baby. A life is not a choice. Once it begins to have a heartbeat, brainwaves, and a fighting chance on its own outside the mother, then it ceases to be her choice, and it deserves its own advocate!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Arizona enacts ban on abortions based on gender, race

www.reuters.com

Under the new Arizona statute, doctors and other medical professionals would face felony charges if they could be shown to have performed abortions for the purposes of helping parents select their offspring on the basis of gender or race.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Good. I would despise those parents that would kill a developing human just because it wasn't a "boy" or a "girl".

Just my own opinion (to those that think killing a developing human is okay) but one of the greatest joys in my life was finding out what my child was when he was born.
It just goes to show how ego-centric society has become when parents put their needs ahead of the child that they bring into the world.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Abortion for health complications is an entirely different issue, it basically falls under right for self-defense. I dont think anyone is against abortion (or caesarean, if viable) when there are medical reasons for why it needs to be done to protect the mother.

Anyway, well thought-out post, and I tend to agree with it, altough for me the line is drawn at the appearance of developed higher brain, some months after conception.

Any fool can see that this legislation is just the first step to entirely ban abortion in all cases and institute a theocratic conservative fascism where the individual has no rights at all.

besides AZ, check out Alaska...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I am against abortion the majority of the time, but I think it should be a viable last option in some instances, such as rape or health complications.

Just so you know, I am against abortion, too. Even in the case of rape, I'm against it. I believe life begins at conception and I wouldn't abort a baby unless the pregnancy threatened my life (which did happen to me). But I don't think I have the right to make this VERY CRUCIAL decision for ANYONE else, much less everyone else. I am not in their shoes, I do not pay their bills, I don't know their minds and hearts and know how valuable the freedom of choice is for all human beings.

And yes, I know this goes against most of my other beliefs about small government and less regulation.

It sure does.

My opinion comes from experiences. I have regrets from abortion decisions as a teenager, and I have wonder at the miracle of my last baby.

So, at one time you supported having a baby aborted but now, you've 'seen the light' and don't want to allow others to make what YOU considered to be a mistake, even if they don't consider it a mistake, because of course, everyone is going to respond to it the same way you did? Is that correct? Or have I got it wrong?

What makes your experience more valid than the millions of women who are happy that they got an abortion? People make mistakes in life and have to live with them. We can't avoid that. But many women don't consider their abortions a mistake.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

So, at one time you supported having a baby aborted but now, you've 'seen the light' and don't want to allow others to make what YOU considered to be a mistake, even if they don't consider it a mistake, because of course, everyone is going to respond to it the same way you did? Is that correct? Or have I got it wrong?

I'm not saying that I have seen the light, or that others should make the same choices as me, I am just saying that a healthy viable baby, capable of surviving outside the womb is more than just a "choice." I am also saying that the big picture is not always clear, and there should be some checks in place to help folks make this decision with plenty of thought process. It should not be a walk-in afternoon procedure and back to the club that night for more unprotected sex! (It happens.)

What makes your experience more valid than the millions of women who are happy that they got an abortion? People make mistakes in life and have to live with them. We can't avoid that. But many women don't consider their abortions a mistake.

Fair enough, make sure someone considering an abortion has the opportunity to hear both sides. I'm not saying my experience is any better or worse than someone else's, but it is an experience, and a potential mother should be required to hear both sides before making a rash decision.

Who speaks for the baby? Sould abortion be allowed at 39 weeks? 38? 32? What about a newborn in a dumpster? What difference does a moment make? Was it legal 30 minutes ago, but now it is murder?

It seems ludicrous to just call it a woman's choice. What if the mother and father planned the baby, and the father picked out a name, and told his family, and bought a crib, had the 3-D ultrasound pictures in his wallet, and up at his office, and then comes home one day to find out the mother changed her mind, walked into a clinic, had an abortion, and is now on her way out for girl's night? Is it just the woman's choice, nothing more? The baby and the father have no say whatsoever? Really?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
What if the mother and father planned the baby, and the father picked out a name, and told his family, and bought a crib, had the 3-D ultrasound pictures in his wallet, and up at his office, and then comes home one day to find out the mother changed her mind, walked into a clinic, had an abortion, and is now on her way out for girl's night? Is it just the woman's choice, nothing more? The baby and the father have no say whatsoever? Really?

Yes. Really. The woman is the one who has to carry and bear the child, so she should have the FINAL choice whether or not to do that. When men can bear children, then they can make that choice. (FWIW, I also support the male abortion).

It's a horrible situation, but sometimes life is like that.
.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Well said.... a voice of reason... .

Star for you.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I respect your steadfastness.

Now tell me this............

As you said earlier, if the mother planned to have the baby, and had made an emotional attachment, picked out a name, etc., and then the baby was killed accidentally by a drunk driver, it should be called murder.

If a father has planned to have the baby, carried the photos, been at every doctors appointment, picked out a name, listened to the heartbeat, and then had the baby intentionally killed by the mother, what then? Isn't that also murder?

I can tell you that I certainly do not have the cool head to wait for a court to decide either way. Let's just say, the court could decide which abortion was more appropriate, the 8 month one or the 31 year one. Both would result in funerals and crying families!