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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Originally posted by bogomil
But not really understanding your perspective on 'original sin', I'm at a loss here. Did you imply some new-age method, where things go through an ideological blender and come out homogenized, so 'original sin'-based methodology is similar to buddhistic 'dualism'-based methodology.
Im not sure what you are asking. I read Genesis, I put nothing through a blender, and what I read it as saying is that it is a sin, (which translates to miss the mark or err) to think we could judge like God. The Serpent had them eat the "fruit" and so now they were "judging" but they were mistaken in their belief that their judgment had anything to do with Gods. Surprise, surprise, the serpent in the story lied to them.
He gave them the curse of THINKING there was a "dualistic" world, when God had created one in which everything was "good." (Read Genesis for yourself.) Notice that God did not dress them for his sake. HE did not judge their nakedness, they did. He clothed them to ease their shame, not because being naked was really "bad" or "shameful."
I wasnt raised Christian, (or any religion) and so when I read the Bible, I had not had several hundreds of years of people telling me what I was supposed to see there. I saw what I saw. I saw God not "punishing" Adam and Eve, but describing for them the natural consequences of their new thought process. "Now you will fear hunger, and farm instead of gather," "now you will know your own death and fear it" "now there will be an increase in brain size and child birth will be more painful."
Originally posted by bogomil
Or did you mean the same initial situation viewed from two opposite perspectives. As far as I can see, there exist few (if any) religious doctrines so judgemental as 'original sin', whereas the original buddhist 'dualism' perspective is pretty neutral on the condemnation side.
Like I said I read it cleanly. I did not have "teaching" in the book, I had not been programmed to read it a specific way. But I had had an "experience" before I read it in which I experienced God. So, that did shape my understanding. To me, it was clear that God called the world out of "pure potentiality" by drawing lines. That portion of Genesis is remarkably like the Hymn of Creation in that way.
Not the best translation but oh well,
www.sacred-texts.com...
1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.
4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?
There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder
6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.
Originally posted by bogomil
Such postulates are easy to make from behind a computer. Considerably more difficult or impossible, living in a KZ-camp.
I dont know what a KZ camp is. But if you are trying to suggest that it is easy for someone to say that when life is fine, but impossible when life is very, very hard, you are incorrect. In fact, how I was taught that lesson was by having me experience a terrifying death. Its actually easier, believe it or not, for many to find unconditional acceptance in the WORST of times.
Originally posted by bogomil
Unconditional acceptance of WHAT. Not that I want to deny your direction or good intentions, but I question your competence to put forth such absolute answers.
Of what is. I dont care if you challenge my competence. At all. Im not in it to convince you. I'll do my best to answer what you are asking, but if this turns into a pissing match I will just bid you adieu. Im not here to convince anyone of anything. I say my piece but I am no messiah wanna be, nor a guru. No one got me to where I was going, and you will end up exactly where you belong. You will have the experience you are built for.
Originally posted by bogomil
A position is eventually as numbing as any doctrine or predigested answer.
Especially if fixed elements like this are introduced..
Not sure your point here. Im not telling anyone to do anything but look for themself. If you think that is the same as trying to tell them what they should see, more power to you. I'll not argue you.
Originally posted by bogomil
God? GOD? Where did he come from, in this open-end search, with no pre-arranged parameters.
Im not talking about a bearded man in the sky, if you are trying to superimpose your God on the word. I use the word broadly. The All that Is, Am, the Divine, The One, whatever you want to call it. I really dont care.
Originally posted by bogomil
Strangely enough, I also have had 'direct experience' (so we can have a merry little 'holier-than-you' competition or you can ignore it), but my direct experience didn't have any 'god' in it.
The only one that seems hostile here is you. I dont give a flying # how many people have experienced God. The more the merrier. Im not trying to be a Messiah, nor a guru. Lord knows ATS has enough of those.
My experience of God, since you seem to have had enough intercourse with Christian terminology that it has you imposing all sorts of crap on me, was "Am." It was everything, everyone, all at once. Absolute conscious intelligence without specific identity. Which is why I dont say "I AM" but only AM. It was pure intelligent being the individual "aspects" were existing in all possible times and states, it was perfect and complete.
And as you should know, anything I say is imperfect, and the more specific I try to get the more imperfect it gets. I am surprised you are being so nitpicky about the term "God" if you are also an experiencer.
Originally posted by bogomil
Actually I believe, that the presence of any kind of 'god' whatsoever would have imploded my 'direct experience'.
Cheers? Im not sure what to say to you. Im not quite sure what your beef is. Please feel free to tell me in very direct terms what you think I am full of crap about, because subtlety is not my strong suit, and I dont have enough patience to try to figure out catty remarks. Just say it straight, or keep it to yourself.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
And I use "Illusionsaregrander" to remind myself that for the mystic, the most dangerous trap of all are the delusions of grandeur. God help us if the ego grabs the enlightenment experience and runs with it.edit on 18-3-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)
"message from another post"
Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
You wrote:
["The God in you doesnt care how certain I sound,...]
There's no 'God' or 'god' in me. That's something you have superimposed on me via your absolutes.
You can speak for yourself; not on my behalf.
I had a dream I died and I was walking along the road to Heaven or Hell. I as walked along an effulgent path covered in a bright white mist, an angel appeared in the bend of the road and floated along beside me. My eyes were dazzled by the brilliance while my ears clearly heard, "Along the way you will meet GOD and the Devil. The Devil will always lie to you and GOD will always tell you the truth. But you only get to ask GOD one question and the DEVIL one question.
As the Angel started to fade and before I could ask anything, "Don't worry, you should have no trouble figuring out what the question should be."
I was walking along the when my worst enemy appeared along the road and started walking along side looking disgusted and said, "I am GOD and I will show you the way to Heaven."
As I walked along in disbelief and before I had really recovered my best friend appeared from the white mists and joined us and laughed while gently touching my arm, "I am GOD and I will show you the way to Heaven."
At that moment we were at a fork in the road. The worst enemy I had ever met in my lifetime was standing to my right and the best friend I had ever had was standing to my left. I turned to my best friend and realized the devil could form a pleasing shape so I hesitated. So I turned to my worst enemy and realized that if I couldn't recognize GOD in my worst enemy I couldn't recognize GOD. Yet still I hesitated.
They both were content to wait and I was baffled. Then I remembered something I had learned from my Master. He would always say, "Duality is an illusion." The memory of that phrase made me realize simultaneously that it didn't matter which one was the Devil and which one was GOD; As long as I asked a question they both would answer the same, the Wisdom of Balance would come to my rescue!
I bowed before them both and said, "If I asked the Devil which was the way to Heaven, where would he point?" As I looked up they were both pointing to my left, so I went to my right and entered the Kingdom of Heaven.
Try this and you should have this
As you see, the experiment didn't succeed. I am, for internet-connection reasons, forced to operate from a word-pad basis. Maybe the problem lies there.
edit on 19-3-2011 by bogomil because: (no reason given)
I believe, that it takes a great deal of appreciation of humour to understand the message.
Why is there no humour in the bible?
And, question: What whole?
If there really IS a whole, it would include Hitler, Stalin, the atrocities of OT and 'Bearhugger's Very Young Whiskey' guaranteed to be matured eight minutes (the thought of this being as dreadful as the taste) and where we can regress everything to ideas of existence as 'fun' (I promise, to drink 'Bearhugger's Very Young' isn't fun); a 'school'...what exactly is it we have to learn, and more important...why
My position and opinions are about the 'models' pretending to represent it. "The map is not the territory" thingy.
Originally posted by bogomil
Personally I'll try to work my own way back towards the epistemological complexities of why a 'god' seems to get his possible messages badly across. To make it easy for myself, I could reintroduce the argument, that it's because he possibly doesn't exist in the form commonly known as a 'god' and isn't a he/she/it, actually isn't anything at all, as we understand anything.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by bogomil
My position and opinions are about the 'models' pretending to represent it. "The map is not the territory" thingy.
So you're talking about the church(s)