Wis. GOP bypasses Dems, cuts collective bargaining

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Didn't you know? Detroit's like an economic utopia, full of shining skyscrapers, gleaming, smoothly-paved streets, and a happy, healthful population of cheerfully employed middle-class workers!

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


to put it simply...

that was a fantastic post.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

considering virtually all nations are socialist in nature, including the United states.

We are not Socialist in nature, by any means. Last I checked there are still tons of people who believe in free enterprise carried out via Capitalism. We currently have a "mixed economy", which employs some keynesian policies favored by govt mostly, and a few Socialist policies put in place. The Socialist/liberal fascist programs go back to FDR(Democrat and 33rd Degree Mason) and Wilson(Democrat). Our Founding Fathers did argue about whether to implement a central bank and it was decided then not to do that. Our Congress unfortunately has given power to the Federal Reserve in a most unConstitutional way, but that's what's on our plate right now. Now, which politicians are currently talking about auditing the Fed?

Look everyone on both sides, lets try to ease up on the rhetoric a bit. In all honesty, unions are not all bad or all good. Unions have accomplished many amazing things that helped move society forward in many areas. But to the same extent unions have also done horrific things to corporations and govts and in turn hurt the very employees they were supposed to protect.

Much of this is as simple as human nature. Power can corrupt anyone. When unions become too powerful they can become corrupt just like a politician or corporation or charity or religion. Human nature is such that the temptation to take advantage of this power is too much for many to turn down. Some would argue that this is why unions exist, but then they also ignore that unions are subject to the same forces of human nature. Example: see what a union and unions employees do to a union member that decides to cross the picket line of a strike. They get intimidated, beat up many times, threatened, and when the strike is over they are flat out ostracized. This is not right. It doesn't make unions evil, it makes them human. Do not forget this. You have no right to not join the union as a teacher. You have no say where union campaign contributions go as a member. You do what the union says, or else. The internal workings of a Union are as undemocratic as they come. Absolute power, absolute rule, absolute obedience within the union, and dissent is crushed. This is just as corrupt as anything else ladies and gentlemen.

Checks and balances are the only solution. I would say that as a public employee, you should know you have different responsibilities than a private company employee. You know that ultimately the taxpayer is your boss. This goes for elected officials as well as anyone else drawing a paycheck from govt. I would say that the elected officials in WI should be cutting their pay as well. Additionally, I would say all compensation packages for public employees should be voted on by the tax payer. Politicians want a raise, voters (taxpayers) have to say yes. Same goes for a teacher or fireman or police officer, etc. Why? because you work for 'We the People'. Working conditions still have to comply with all local, state and federal laws. And ultimately as a public employee, you should have some of your pay be based on performance and results. I think we can all agree that its absurd that its near impossible to fire a teacher, firefighter, police officer, etc. You should have to perform.

Personally, I don't like they way things were handled by either side in WI. Democrats handled it poorly and so did Republicans. But the hypocrisy knows no bounds. Obama used the same non budgetary maneuver to pass Healthcare Reform and Republicans cried high foul! Republicans used the same maneuver, and now Democrats are crying high foul! Why? Because power corrupts, and the most corruptible power is that of large govt. The most damage done to this country is when one party controls all branches of govt. That is true of Republicans and Democrats, no one is innocent. And neither are unions. Unions, like govt, need checks and balances.

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I have to arguably disagree with you, that the air controller strike, during the Reagan years, was about baggage handlers getting pay raises. I believe, it was about, the air traffic controllers were striking, because they did not have the proper instruments to safely perform their job.

After the striker's were fired by--- Blood On His Hands Ronald Reagan, the newly hired, inexperienced air traffic controller's did indeed, recieve the instruments that the formally fired striker's called for.

It was all about, "union busting."

Thats what I get for listening to old neocons about what that movement was about.

I wasn't a fan of Reagen at all...however, comparatively speaking...he is now some lefty liberal by todays standards.
Thanks for clearing that up. And ya, class warfare has been going on for ages. He with the gold makes the rules...problem is, society has shown time and time again when things get truely desperate...boiling point desperate...the roadways become paved with the blood of the elites.
We are nowhere near that point mind you..our poor live like kings comparatively to other nations, however, I don't think we will wait for things to become truely 3rd world before the people rise up

Actually, my hope is that we invent our way out of the capitalist flaw..but meh, thats just the transhumanist in me being hopeful.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
The Socialist/liberal fascist programs

-sighs-

The Neonazi/conservative theocratic programs have given us corporations becoming people, zero...read again, zero corporate taxing, deregulation of environmental protections, etc.

so...those evil socialist liberal dems have tried to make things a bit equal...scary

yet the real american godling theocrats figure that walmart is a person and you should be able to dump toxic waste in your local rivers.

lets amp up the retoric dude...its fun...total mindless fun...shall we start chanting USA at each other now?

reply to post by SaturnFX

yet the real american godling theocrats figure that walmart is a person and you should be able to dump toxic waste in your local rivers

Ah, well Hillary did sit on the board at Wal-Mart. And once upon a time Wal Mart did sell all-American. Hillary and Bill are notable for favoring China.
But, wait, when did Wal Mart dump toxic waste into the rivers?

reply to post by SaturnFX


I do have some things to say about that, but I dont' want to be nailed for being off topic.

I find it interesting that protesters were blocking legislators from conducing business.

Debate began in the Assembly after re-energized protests prompted a temporary lockdown and security sweep at the state Capitol, where demonstrators had flocked to try to block representatives' access to their chamber

source: news.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

considering virtually all nations are socialist in nature, including the United states.

We are not Socialist in nature, by any means. Last I checked there are still tons of people who believe in free enterprise carried out via Capitalism. We currently have a "mixed economy",

Oh I see your point, so its having certain socialist programmes like medicare and medicaid and welfare is A-OK, but socialism is still a bad system, right?

You are either for socialism or against it. Socialism by strict definition from many conservatives is any form of wealth distribution which a silly idea as wealth distribution is inevitable regardless. Maybe you are confusing socialism for communism? I don't know, maybe you can be clear as to what a socialist country exactly is.

and a few Socialist policies put in place. The Socialist/liberal fascist programs go back to FDR(Democrat and 33rd Degree Mason) and Wilson(Democrat).

Its all talk at the end of the day. Folk such as yourself rally against socialism, but when your representitives challanged with the idea of removing socialist programmes like medicare and welfare, they run away from the idea, and why do you think? Because millions of americans depend on these prgammes and it does not look good to removed them. You want to call these programmes fascists? Thats fine. We'll see how that goes in an election campaign.

Originally posted by EssenceOfSilence
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Yes, some socialism is useful especially for the elderly, orphans, and other less fortunate folks.

oooh ok, so like the other fella, you don't actually oppose socialism, you just oppose certain forms of socialism, but socialism is bad none the less. Ok

Yes, some socialism is useful especially for the elderly, orphans, and other less fortunate folks

I dont know who posted this, but adolph hitler thought the very same thing.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Oh I see your point, so its having certain socialist programmes like medicare and medicaid and welfare is A-OK, but socialism is still a bad system, right?

Um, I said that "some" socialist programs were implemented, as opposed to being a full fledged Socialist country. This is what is known as Fabian Socialism, or socialism in increments.

In fact here's an article in Forbes magazine about it, and there's even a mention of machinist's unions.
www.forbes.com...

Ahhh, nothin like comin home from work, crackin a brew, turnin on the tele, and seein some anti-american crybabies get dragged off of govt. property. All that squirmin and squeelin, must see TV.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Fabian Socialism, or socialism in increments

Never heard of that one.

We got a name for everything don't we?

Cripes...I don't know what we are anymore. Republic, Democracy, Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Fascist, Tuna Casserole, Guacamole, etc.

I'll tell you what we are.

We are a people who takes all of our views and opinions by the corporations that run our government and feed us our news.

THAT is what we are....that is what this country is. Call it whatever you want.....it definitely IS NOT for the middle class, the poor, or small businesses.

reply to post by Fitch303


They already agreed to pay cuts, but their pensions were paid out of their paychecks since they started working. The pensions are THEIR money withheld by the state.

The bill they passed had NO spending initiatives in it...that is how they were able to pass it.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Um, I said that "some" socialist programs were implemented, as opposed to being a full fledged Socialist country. This is what is known as Fabian Socialism, or socialism in increments.

So you don't oppose socialism as a concept, you oppose fascism? Be alittle more clear, because when somebody equates socialism to fascism, it means just that, socialism, and it lumps all socialist programmes.

Make up your mind, make a clear stand.

reply to post by The Sword

Uneducated people assume that the unions are greedy, malevolent and just plain evil.

Uneducated people assume?
Like you are doing here, and chiding "uneducated" people for.

Do you smell hypocrisy? Cause I smell hypocrisy.

They probably aren't members of unions. They probably have bosses that make them work for #ty pay and benefits. They probably don't have adequate sick pay/vacation pay. They probably work more overtime than what's legally allowed (and their boss likely bribes the gov't to look the other way). They probably face retaliation if they even think of challenging their employer.

"They probably"? isn't that an assumption?
I thought you said only uneducated people do that.

Sounds like you just don't have the fortitude to stand up for yourself against a superior, without your union to back you up. I did it all the time before working for myself, and got raises and promotions regularly...didn't need a union for that.

Simply put, you don't know how to fish. You only know how to take the fish the union gives you.

Myself? I can fish.

If you enjoy that kind of crap, more power to you.

You wanna know what's crap?

People I know in Unions, 90%+ of what they talk about is how they can basically do nothing all day and still get paid like the more productive employees. One guy I know who works for UPS union package sorting brags about how he could basically move about 5 boxes an hour and still keep his job.

But don't trample on the rights of other Americans to organize and fight for good benefits, pay and equity!

Do they also have a right to kill a company because they protect lazy workers who lower profits?

Who doesn't want a fair wage? Collective bargaining exists for that sole purpose!

Like I said, I could always get a fair wage and even benefits without a union.
Why can't you?

LOL, "collective bargaining". Is that what they call socialism and blackmail nowadays.