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EXCLUSIVE "What in The World Are They Spraying" Chemist talks to ATS about Geoengineering.

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posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by GoldenFleece
 


Well it's certainly not a chemtrail, nor is it any form of geoengineering.

But would you say this is a missile, an aircraft flying straight up into the air, or an aircraft flying horizontal to the ground? I'll give you a clue, it's not the first or second one






posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by pianopraze
 


There has not been any "derailing" occurring in this thread, except by the people who are trying (and failing) to push the "chem"-trail hoax as a "fact". Fingers in ears, and hands over eyes....when the actual truth and scientific facts are presented. The facts that have been brought are "countered" with mis-interpreted links to papers, studies, etc, that are not indicating any active "spraying" programs on-going.

Let's be VERY clear, in the midst of the "debate"....and consider what the basic, basic premise is here:

  • The claim that, because of the (it is argued faulty) results presented in that film, the false conclusions were drawn.....i.e., "geo-engineering" actively underway;

  • This so-called "spraying" would, by necessity, entail the actual carryiing of some material aloft, yes?;

  • Since there is ZERO evidence, of any sort, nor proof to point to this scenario...the premise as presented by the film, on THIS topic, is seriously in error.

    Period!



  • posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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    Originally posted by pianopraze
    Update:

    He's having computer problems.

    I got an email from him presumably from his cell phone.



    Richard - my computer crashed - no guess if it can be fixed. Will try to get back onsite soon - please let the other folks know, they have my apologies.
    Lenny
    Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®


    They're targeting him.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 11:33 AM
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    reply to post by defcon5
     


    You said you were discussing facts. How could anyone be discussing facts in a world where truth has blinders on it?

    Their international documents and even the Geneva Convention speaks of not using climate or weapons that can cause earthquakes, something most don't know exist, yet this means nothing. They're using those at all.


    They have mentioned chemtrails in documents. They have tested the sludge collected off properties and vehicles that have unusually high borium/aluminum and other things.

    They have documents discussing climate control.

    We aren't idiots you know, people can tell whats a contrail from abnormal "contrails" that leave sludge filled with chemicals. People are getting sick, like MY SON, from the sludge sprayed on them.

    We don't have to prove that there isn't a conspiracy, we only have to realize, alot of people don't tell the truth, they are under a blanket of consequence for speaking up, and connect Logical Dots. The people are the true employers, they only need to be suspicious.

    Manipulation of truth and always pointing to the things that are heavily controlled to prove things, and trying to suspend logic and collections of data and evidence in all areas, that can be investigated by citizens, asking for the kind of proof that is controlled and can only be collected by well heeled and connected, is the way they LIE and then say, Prove IT!!! All the while knowing , we know what they're doing, but can't prove it, and they just laugh their heads off.

    I for one don't believe that the dots don't connect! I for one, know that my son went from healthy to sick over half the year, for years and finally had to be home schooled, which didn't work for him, in his senior years, due to being so unhealthy, starting from a spraying job done by US jets flying really low that left sludge behind.

    Like most citizens, I couldn't afford the fancy chemical testings, nor would I trust the outcome of a laboratory that is not likely to release the truth.

    Truth has blinders!
    edit on 9-3-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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    reply to post by pianopraze
     



    I'm leaning towards geoengineering has begun.


    My uncle, a physicist, told me he felt an ice age was coming. It seems its being encouraged. Global warming and historically warm periods were good for humans, wide range of land opens up. BP was also geoengineering it seems. Their accident caused the Gulf Stream to halt, and well, the weather problems and current changes followed as well.

    www.eworldwire.com...

    I guess "God" gave the order:

    theintelhub.com...

    Well Rothchild's think they're God or Zeus's lineage anyway.

    OLD WORLD SECRETS THE OMEGA PROJECT CODES

    Geoengineering in the hands of Criminal Henchmen.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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    reply to post by weedwhacker
     


    I can not assume your intelligence is to low to see the derailing, so i must assume the person with fingers in their ears is the ones saying there is no derailing. It is so blatant it has become the de-facto theme of this thread. So I think this thread has now become a great study-case in how it is done and has opened a lot of eyes. The opposite of what was intended by those doing this.

    This thread has succeeded beyond my wildest dreams.

    1. The good doctor came to share his wisdom and will be on the air this Saturday.
    2. Great info has been exposed.
    3. The tactics of the second game has been well illustrated.

    So I am very happy and optimistic about this thread, just tired of pointing out the game-within-a-game.

    Weed, I thank you for your research but it has not disproven anything in my mind. It has added to my knowledge base so I thank you for it. I enjoy reading all the links you put up as many have been quite informative.

    Thank you.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 12:44 PM
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    Originally posted by Unity_99
    We aren't idiots you know, people can tell whats a contrail from abnormal "contrails" that leave sludge filled with chemicals. People are getting sick, like MY SON, from the sludge sprayed on them.

    We don't have to prove that there isn't a conspiracy, we only have to realize, alot of people don't tell the truth, they are under a blanket of consequence for speaking up, and connect Logical Dots. The people are the true employers, they only need to be suspicious.

    I for one don't believe that the dots don't connect! I for one, know that my son went from healthy to sick over half the year, for years and finally had to be home schooled, which didn't work for him, in his senior years, due to being so unhealthy, starting from a spraying job done by US jets flying really low that left sludge behind.

    Like most citizens, I couldn't afford the fancy chemical testings, nor would I trust the outcome of a laboratory that is not likely to release the truth.


    I am very sorry to hear about your son.

    You raise a good point about trust. My faith and trust in my government has been shattered over the recent years. The more I study history the less I trust. Now, with threads like flyintheointment pointed out above... i trust them even less. If they are resorting to this it seem to me to be a de-facto admission of moral bankruptcy and defeat of their position as being tenable.

    On an odd side note. One day last week I was out for a motorcycle ride. The sky possessed an iridescence and haze unfamiliar to me. Almost home, I looked up and noticed the entire hazy mess was from spread out contrails. I took lots of pictures but it was with my little cell phone camera. I will attempt to find a program to stitch the photos together sometime and show the entire sky.

    Ever since that day, everyone I know has been having extreme allergy reactions. Cold be coincident...



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 01:21 PM
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    reply to post by pianopraze
     

    Maybe that’s because the tree pollen count is heading into the high end of the chart in many locations.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 01:56 PM
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    reply to post by backinblack
     



    You know the rules..

    ATS older members do not need to show their qualifications..
    It's their facts you should judge them on...
    Qualifications are irrelevant..

    Anyone else, well they want the works..
    DOB, schooling,qualifications,work history and pet cat's name..

    Me? I think it should be a "one size fits all"


    Credentials Wait wait wait! LOL

    I am an older ATS member - I think that if people follow Phage's online paper trail they will find out exactly what he is about... nearly every topic and post of his.

    I have been reading this thread from where I left off (I am on page 12 now - continuing on).

    I am not here to discuss Phage, but unfortunately - the way he goes about things, he tries to make the thread about himself - or rather his "beliefs". (beliefs in quotes because, who knows exactly what he believes)

    The doctor came here to debate, attain more knowledge and perhaps get others view points on this subject - not to experience the circular argumentation tactics of people who won't even open their minds and listen.
    edit on 3/9/2011 by kroms33 because: (no reason given)



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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    reply to post by defcon5
     


    Possibly, but the timing was interesting. They work hard at plausible deniability. The interesting thing is how my allergies popped up instantly overnight worse than i've had in years and how weird the sky was.

    With all I'ver read now it makes me wonder if my allergies (which i've had tested and only ragweed in this area is a major contributor, and ragweed is not pollinating right now) might be partly from an undiagnosable source... it is one of the side-effects listed by the geoengineers in their papers and statements at conferences.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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    reply to post by kroms33
     


    If you have been reading the thread you would know that the doctor did not come here to debate. He came here to answer questions.
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    He answered three of my questions.
    1) In his opinion, the alleged increase in soil pH could not be attributed to "spraying". Contradicting what was said in the movie.

    2) He has no evidence that aluminum levels have increased since the "spraying" had begun.

    3) He said that the aluminum levels were "exceptionally high".

    When when I asked for comment on evidence which shows that the aluminum levels are not unusual he was silent.

    When I asked the doctor about the validity of the water testing (because of the very narrow spectrum of materials tested), he was silent.

    I was not debating with the doctor. I was asking questions directly related to the movie and the testing.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 02:25 PM
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    reply to post by Phage
     


    Sometimes I think I'm living on a different planet reading different things than others commenting. Makes it feel like I'm Alice... in Wonderland...

    Strange how that happens.

    I do appreciate the good doctors efforts. And look forward to hearing this all play out Saturday. Agian, many thanks to nef for making this happen, I'm (almost) literally standing on my head in anticipation waiting for Saturday.

    Ever wonder why people stand on their heads?

    I hear it is to gain perspective.

    look it up



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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    I thought this was an excellent documentry



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 03:27 PM
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    reply to post by Phage
     


    Good ol' Phage - returning from a long vacation full of vigor.



    If you have been reading the thread you would know that the doctor did not come here to debate. He came here to answer questions.
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    SO, what? You don't think he is going to defend his position by debating the topic?
    He said, “sure - i will try to answer live questions.”
    And you dare to post that as some uncanny proof that he wouldn't debate – and try to call me out by saying that I did not read this entire thread? I read every post – including your egotistical mishmash that led to circular argumentation and complete derailment of this topic (yeah, you had help – I can't give you all the credit). I have witnessed you do this in the past. It is your 'staple.' The debunking crew always salivate in anticipation of your arrival, and you do give quite the show.



    He answered three of my questions.
    1) In his opinion, the alleged increase in soil pH could not be attributed to "spraying". Contradicting what was said in the movie.

    Key word - “OPINION” - not theory or scientific fact... Opinion, just as you are stating. Unless you are taking soil samples personally, or involved with this type of research in a scientific way – all of the “facts” that you represent are just opinion and rely on other peoples data. Sure, you can rely on other peoples research – call it fact, but with your methodology and skepticism – aren’t you just as out of the “loop” as everyone else (but the doctor) is?
    Also, what credentials do you have that underline your understanding of the data that you have collected?



    2) He has no evidence that aluminum levels have increased since the "spraying" had begun.

    Just as you have no evidence 'it' hasn't... all you are relying on is other peoples data, not your own.
    I find it interesting that you target people who have credentials, but yet never present your own. Why should anyone take what you say as 'truth' or justified argumentation when you have nothing to support or back up your claims that are your own materials? I mean seriously, you are just a member of ATS like the rest of us – you just have a proficiency at seeming to be a “know it all,” which of course is an illusion.



    3) He said that the aluminum levels were "exceptionally high".

    Prove they are not without using someone else's research.



    When when I asked for comment on evidence which shows that the aluminum levels are not unusual he was silent.

    When I asked the doctor about the validity of the water testing (because of the very narrow spectrum of materials tested), he was silent.

    I was not debating with the doctor. I was asking questions directly related to the movie and the testing.

    You are bringing up topic points. If you have ever debated someone, facts are presented and questions are presented. You have done both: You bring up points such as “The Aluminum levels are not unusual,” and then ask him for his evidence, you are challenging him to debate said point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what you are doing and how you twist things.

    Now, I will state that the doctor should answer your questions about aluminum for the sake of this debate – but the circular argumentation has to stop – what progress has been made in this thread's 17 pages? It seems to me it has come back full circle to the beginning after a heated argument – it is now back to mods censoring posts and you still asking about aluminum levels. If you really wanted an answer, I don't think you would have gone on the offensive the way you did. Why didn't you just u2u the doc for the info if you were so concerned he was not answering you publicly?

    Pianopraze started this thread, got a doctor on ATS to talk about this topic – and look what happened?


    If we want to measure some kind of data as in "who is right" and "who is wrong" - all we really have to do is look at the stars in the thread to see which way this is all leaning... it speaks volumes.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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    Originally posted by kroms33
    reply to post by Phage
     


    Good ol' Phage - returning from a long vacation full of vigor.



    He answered three of my questions.
    1) In his opinion, the alleged increase in soil pH could not be attributed to "spraying". Contradicting what was said in the movie.

    Pianopraze started this thread, got a doctor on ATS to talk about this topic – and look what happened?



    You seem to see what's happening.

    I am done pointing out all the twists that phage is pulling. But I will show you that he is twisting what the good doctor has said. He has many times directly stated to me either in threads or personal communication that he believes there is some good evidence for spraying being one reason for the levels... he just is honest and keeps an open mind. I have shown that at least part is from Aluminum chaff.

    Originally posted by lemmehowdt
    As far as the spraying goes, i cannot confirm that the material comes from spraying, but process of elimination takes away most of the other possibilities.


    There are other examples but this was first one I ran across.

    cheers,
    piano



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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    reply to post by pianopraze
     


    I AM sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

    And, see the post by phage up above, summarizing the three questions from the good Dr. Note the unanswered questions (though, to my mind, the first three are incriminating enough. Well...not "incriminating" as directed toward Dr. Thyme, but to the producers of that very, very deceptive, and malformed "documentary").


    In the nattering nabobs' negativity and desire to nosh on phage, and drag his good name through the mud....I call "Foul!" on your claim of a "second game"! I see that it is your own assertions of this "second game" that is the ruse, and the deflection.....


    Back to where I started in this post, and to enhance my point in the earlier one:

  • The Dr.'s three answered questions clearly refute the film's "premise";

  • Therefore, it calls into doubt ALL such claims made by "chem"-trail pushers of such on-going and currently in progress activities!


    What has been presented by you, et al, are the well-documented and irrefutable studies, reports, think-tank ruminations that have, are and will continue to be occurring. These do NOT mean an active, currently-in-operation plan of any sort.

    AND, to reiterate from before.....not one of "you" are adequately addressing the simple, simple fact that there is no evidence, whatsoever, of any such activity! Given that the allegations of the film are shown to be in error, over-the-top hysterical, and unfounded....WHAT can you say now, about that fact??

    What else can you say, about the sheer implausibility of this "program", as is alleged by the "chem"-trail pushers? There is another Dr. on ATS, a Ph.D as well....who is not only an Airline Transport rated pilot, but a college-level professor. Many times he has written up (in far more detailed and technical manner than I) the same arguments I have, to show the real-world limitations of actual airplanes, in terms of weight-carrying capability, range and duration (since the fuel needed for duration, and thus range, also has weight).

    Even assuming the unsupported, unproven claims of "sprayers" and associated equipment installed on a mystery "fleet" of airplanes, and "some material" that is lofted, and its characteristics, and mode of "delivery", etc.

    What comes out of the "chem"-trail pushers mouths and keyboards are utter fantasies....future science fiction. This is from people who sit, and they have their own "brain storm sessions"....but, they do not take into account the physics, and restrictions that the actual current technology imposes. Because, they are abjectly ignorant of such details. And, that is a prime definition of science fiction....because, it is "scientific"....and it is theoretically possible, certainly....just as future interstellar human star travel is theoretically possible, some day....BUT, the actual technology to achieve, as imagined, is still a bit out of our reach.


    One more thing....to prove there is NO such current, airborne, geoengineering project, or projects, in operation:

    Please put your thinking caps on --- If there were any largish number of airplanes doing any such thing as imagined....then where do they operate from? On the ground. They have to land....for obvious reasons. And, that?? Entails an enormous logistical operational set of events that would be impossible to "hide"....someone would notice....especially since this hoax is such a front-burner obsession by so many people.

    This is so logical, is why I cannot understand how this HOAX has gotten such long legs, and lasted for so many years. People are not using their reason!!!



    edit on 9 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



  • posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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    reply to post by kroms33
     


    SO, what? You don't think he is going to defend his position by debating the topic?
    He said, “sure - i will try to answer live questions.”
    And you dare to post that as some uncanny proof that he wouldn't debate – and try to call me out by saying that I did not read this entire thread?

    What? Where did I say "he wouldn't debate"? I never tried to engage with a debate with him. Once again, I asked him some questions. Asking questions is not a debate. It may lead to a debate but it is not a debate.


    You bring up points such as “The Aluminum levels are not unusual,” and then ask him for his evidence, you are challenging him to debate said point. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what you are doing and how you twist things.
    I did not ask him for evidence. I asked him for comments on evidence contrary to what he stated. It is not I who is twisting things here.

    He asked for alternative sources for the aluminum in the snow sample. I offered one.

    It was not I who started bringing extraneous information to the thread. It was not I who introduced information about high sulfur fuels and the hypothetical spraying of H2SO4 to the thread. It was not I who brought information about computer simulations of radar propagation to the thread. It was not I who brought chaff (yes, it does have to do with aluminum) to the thread. It was not I accusing anyone of "disinformation". It is not I who is twisting things.

    It is not I who made other members the topic of discussion.

    edit on 3/9/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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    This thread is based on a hypothesis. I pointed out a means to prove or falsify the hypothesis. And only Phage has bothered to comment on it. I have referenced many scientific papers. No-one has commented on them.

    That says a lot to me.

    This thread is to science what The Simpsons is to 11th century Chinese History. Sorry guys, but you had the opportunity and yet again you failed.

    I don't think many chemtrail believers have the slightest interest in engaging in serious discussion - and the few that do are drowned out by the tin foil hat brigade. Sorry, but that's how it is. Not sure what the answer is but a decent discssion on the subject seems as likely as Nibiru hitting the Earth in 2003.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 04:24 PM
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    reply to post by weedwhacker
     




    Therefore, it calls into doubt ALL such claims made by "chem"-trail pushers of such on-going and currently in progress activities!


    Jeez-Louise. Are you serious? All it proves (if anything) is that the film (premise/data) may be suspect; and I'm not convinced that y'all haven't just pulled a clever number on us with semantics and careful leading of the conversation/ a heavy focus on the erroneous aspects of the film. You are associating the film with the theory, in a way that suggests you are trying to make people believe that by debunking the film, you are debunking the topic. Not so, and very obvious.

    Why is it that in every other thread I can recall, such 'either/or' tactics (IE - 'exclusive options, either 1 or 2, nothing else is viable as a conclusion') are frowned on by, well - YOU, and all the other pseudoskeptics...? There's a technical term for it, with it being a recognised fallacious tactic in attacking or undermining a point of view/ topic/ person/ data set. I can't recall what it is at the moment, but I'll have a root around and find out so I can paint the true colour of your post for all to see.

    BTW - Your attempt to blame Pianopraze for the derailment is quite literally laughable.


    I see that the mods advice to not discuss other members has fallen on deaf ears. Interestingly, now that the majority of 'believers' and 'true, open-minded skeptical enquirers' have had enough of the BS games in this thread, some of the major players have shown up and started hammering the last few pages; to ensure that latecomers or future viewers of this topic see an abandoned thread flooded with a sense of 'the skeptics won' at the end... What a load of bollards.

    x 1,000,000

    Weedy... Chadwickus (better late than never...) Phage... Essan & Defcon5...

    Give yourselves a round of applause.


    I vote that this thread should be relocated to 'Deconstructing Disinformation', as a prime example of what can happen when derailment is on the agenda.

    ALL who have been posting in opposition to the pseudo-skeptics; stop posting now, and see whether they move to fill up a few pages with catcalling and BS posts/ gloating. It will be interesting to see if they mute the voices of dissent by trolling the final pages. If they have nobody to respond to, will they be so desperate as to talk amongst themselves, in order to appear in the majority/ holders of a (fake) consensus opinion?

    Seriously - let's have a posting break and see what happens.



    posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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    Originally posted by weedwhacker
    [1]And, see the ...*snip*...very deceptive, and malformed "documentary").


    [2]In the nattering nabobs' negativity *snip* assertions of this "second game" that is the ruse, and the deflection.....

    [3]The Dr.'s three answered questions clearly refute the film's "premise";

    [4]Therefore, it calls into doubt ALL such claims made by "chem"-trail pushers of such on-going and currently in progress activities!

    [5]What has been presented by you,*snip* NOT mean an active, currently-in-operation plan of any sort.

    [6]AND, to reiterate from before..*snip* WHAT can you say now, about that fact??

    [7]What else can you say, about the sheer implausibility of this "program", *snip*

    [8].but, they do not take into account the physics, and restrictions that the actual current technology *snip*

    [9] *snip* where do they operate from? *snip*

    [10] *snip* People are not using their reason!!!



    edit on 9 March 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)

    [1] The documentary was an eye opener and got me looking. It's the things I've learned since then that fall right in the globalist agenda that makes me believe there is a possibility it has begun, and if not they will begin.

    [2] I'm done addressing phage's game. It's obvious to me and to others, apparently you can't see through it. It lines up with your feelings. I respect your feelings and read all you posts and documents. So far it has not made as compelling a case as the geoengineering case, in my mind.

    [3] phage twists the logic and statements. I can not agree with you.

    [4] I have shown one source of aluminum on Mt. Shasta... it lines up with witness testimony and documented evidence. This is not geoengineering, no, it is military. I find the paper by the GAO distressing to say the least on the "it's safe"... would we trust a chemical company dumping stuff in the river if they did a studay saying "it's safe"... very unlikely as they have been proven to lie time and again. So has our government on the dangers of the stuff they are doing.

    [5] You are correct. It does not mean they are not either. It is neither evidence for or against current geo-engineering. But these studies have shown it is cheap to do and the technology is already in use, so they have the will, and they way... just takes someone in a back room saying go for it. This has happened many times throughout history and only admitted later.

    [6] there is plenty of circumstantial evidence and none of us have the money, or expertise. The ones with this are the ones planning to do geoengineering if they have not already begun.

    [7] I have not seen this evidence presented, feel free to do so. If I missed it I apologize.

    [8] The geoengineers have done these studies and all the technology is available. Why do you say it is not?

    [9] I don't know. That's how black projects work.

    [10] I hear you , and I hear your frustration. You've obviously been in many threads about this. I am just beginning. From my initial survey I find more questions than answers and a very real possibility that it has begun based on the questions raised. I appreciate you have a different conclusion. Please keep posting your arguments and documents and I will keep reading.

    So far my reason tells me there is smoke here, we need to put it out before it becomes a fire that kills millions of people. The whole premise of global engineering is based on "global warming" which has been debunked, they have been proven of altering data for public manipulation... yet they keep pushing it on us.

    These eugenic globalists have repeatedly said they want to see our population reduced and are searching for ways to go about it. This falls right in their agenda. If you want the quotes I can provide them. They are not even pretending to keep this secret. They want us dead.




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