Why Good and Bad Can't Really Exist

reply to post by bsbray11


Your analysis is useful but not fully accurate.

What one man consumes another regurgitates

What is good and bad, or evil or good depends on perspective.

The torrential rains in Canada have brought great crops and wealth to the farmers, but destruction to the Indian villagers.

So rain is evil to some and good to others but in reality it isn’t evil or good in itself only relative to ones perspective.

reply to post by inforeal


I agree with everything you say, so where I have not been accurate to these ideas?

Originally posted by Manula
And one more thing. For me what is important is to accept everything life brings and try to give good use to everything, learn, help, evolve, enjoy etc etc
I think we can agree on this

Yes, I agree completely with that as well, given that "good" is going to vary from person to person naturally. I also enjoy learning and evolving, and sometimes helping others. Sometimes I think I "help" too much where help is not actually needed though, and things would naturally resolve on their own. I don't think my views are "better" than anyone else's, but just like everyone else, I still have the right to have the experiences that I choose to.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Show up at my door and try to string me up by my balls and you'll see for yourself. I don't appreciate all the veiled threats coming from you in virtually every post. If you're going to do something then do it, don't just talk about it like you would actually know what would happen.

.... you crack me up .... Dear... where did I put that string? Nope this one's too thick.... he's got tiny nuts.... pass me that thread. What do you mean how do I know he's got tiny nuts? Anyone who doesn't feel good or bad.... meaning they can't feel anything must have tiny nuts.

reply to post by soleprobe


That must be the best argument yet that "good" and "bad" have objective meaning.

What can I say. You should be a philosopher.

This topic was not fully explored.
If there is no good and bad, there are no good and bad emotions, what is left? No emotions? Peace of mind? Bliss? The middle way Buddha talked about?
Then what?
I propose a different notion.
There is no good and bad, there is only good.
Its all good.
You only pay attention to the good side of things. You always try to see the useful, good side of things.
Its the positive thinking mindset.
This way, if all is judged as good, and emotions follow the judgment, then the good emotions take over.
What about the extreme situations? Horrible physical pains for example, like torture teeth or back pains?
These feel bad, there is no escaping it?
Come on guys, keep this topic going, its very interesting!!

reply to post by bsbray11


Dualism. Good: Bad, Left:right, right:wrong, Male: female. Its kinda a third density thing. Good and bad are just perceptions, important ones though because humanity is so young in universal age that they can only strongly deal with existence in such simple dual terms

reply to post by The GUT


I'm appauding you for words and thoughts so well delivered...I would be interested to know how the author of the Op would feel if he was mugged, beaten nearly to death,and had is identity stolen that would continue to screw up his life for the rest of his days on earth.

His whole concept just seems silly to me.

err..sorry , but I just don't get this bad and good is only a perception.

Or the everything is good theory.

I think Gut hit the nail on the head, with his analysis of people he knew that say they think this way...and when sh*t hits the fan, they quickly change their tune.

By the way, my earlier post was in noway meant to be a threat....nor do I think others posts were either, just a reality check.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I think Gut hit the nail on the head, with his analysis of people he knew that say they think this way...and when sh*t hits the fan, they quickly change their tune.

I like how your counter-argument is not based on anything logical at all, but a supposition of how other people would react in theoretical situations. That way, you aren't proving anything, but you can't be proven wrong, either, of course.

And on top of that you are presuming to know how other people would react in any given situation, which is as ridiculous as the world is filled with all kinds of very different people.

Originally posted by Manula
There is no good and bad, there is only good.
Its all good.

This is just a perspective too, though more power to you for being content enough in your life already to employ it.

All I am saying is that all of these perspectives are arbitrary and really they are more like tools than anything factual. There is literally no way to prove what is "good" or "bad." That is the real, logical core of the whole issue. What you choose to see is what you're going to get, because it's all you give yourself to work with. If you're tempted to see everything as "good," you'd be akin to an optimist. If you're tempted to see everything as "bad," you'd be akin to a pessimist. If you believe something is possible, you are infinitely more likely to succeed than if you think you are attempting something impossible. Or another example, is the glass half empty or half full? Again, what you see is what you get, because it's your choice.

What about the extreme situations? Horrible physical pains for example, like torture teeth or back pains?
These feel bad, there is no escaping it?

If there was no escaping these things, they would happen to everyone. If you feel you are purely a victim of circumstance, you have already dis-empowered yourself from whatever choices might otherwise be available to you, to avoid these situations in the first place. I do not believe it is impossible for someone to avoid the things you mention, no matter how much they may choose to cry about how their circumstances are "bad." It's very likely that this attitude would have something to do with their predicament in the first place. It's also said that aches and pains in the body are notoriously literal messages to the individual, of things in their life that need reconsideration.

bsbray said

"I like how your counter-argument is not based on anything logical at all, but a supposition of how other people would react in theoretical situations. That way, you aren't proving anything, but you can't be proven wrong, either, of course. "


..hmmm..my logic ..or your logic

I guess its a matter of perception , because I think my logic makes perfect sense ,and someday it will probably be proven right , much to your disliking.

(shrugs) but oh well...it doesn't really matter anyhow..according to you...nothing good,or nothing bad will ever happen to you and if thats the way you see it, so be it.

BUT ...PLEASE remember those words ,and reflect on them some day..when some kind of sh*t does hit the fan.
After all its only logical that it will.

Originally posted by gabby2011
..hmmm..my logic ..or your logic

Logic as understood in the formal sense. Formal logic.

I guess its a matter of perception

That's basically what this whole thread is about.

because I think my logic makes perfect sense ,and someday it will probably be proven right , much to your disliking.

Like I have said, but you refuse to acknowledge, I have already experienced plenty of things you would consider "bad," but I don't dwell on these things in the way you seem to dwell on them, as if your fascination is always with the "negative." I've been robbed. I feel sorry for the man who robbed me, who was obviously in a worse situation than myself. It lasted a whole 10 minutes and have I been crying about it? No. I've had guns pointed at me. I've been in extreme physical pain before, from various injuries, from sicknesses, I've been in multiple car accidents, one of which I could have easily died from if a tree branch that shattered my driver side window were only 3 or 4 inches more towards my chest, it would have impaled me. It miraculously went between my arm and chest and I still have scars on the inside of my arm from that. Am I here crying about it to you now? No. I wouldn't even mention any of these things, they do not concern me at all, except that you seem to think something "bad" happening to me would suddenly change my mind. Increasingly "bad" things would just have to keep happening to me, until I'm forced to admit "bad" exists, right? That is your twisted reasoning of impressing your view upon me? No, you can keep all of that, all of this obsession with the "bad" to yourself, since you seem to like it enough for both of us. I do not view any of this as "bad" or "good" but equally a part of life, the kinds of things that everyone has to deal with. Calling it "bad" is just whining. Too bad you have not been paying attention to anything I have posted.

reply to post by bsbray11


Do I sense someone getting into a BAD mood? shhh


Listen, I don't dwell on the negative,and I'm truly sorry you went through so many hardships,and obviously you don't feel they were bad for you, or good...which I guess is good..I mean not good, but not bad...

anyhoo I'm glad you're looking at it all in a not good or not bad perspective.

Hopefully this puts you in a better mood..... oiy

By the way..did you have a good day?

Originally posted by gabby2011
Do I sense someone getting into a BAD mood? shhh

No?

Listen, I don't dwell on the negative

That's not what your posts here are showing. It's all you've been talking about!

and I'm truly sorry you went through so many hardships,and obviously you don't feel they were bad for you, or good...which I guess is good..I mean not good, but not bad...

You can save all of this because like I said, I really don't care. If you are truly sorry for what happened then that only makes one of us, and you are wasting energy continuing to dwell on nothing.

anyhoo I'm glad you're looking at it all in a not good or not bad perspective.

Hopefully this puts you in a better mood.....

oiy

By the way..did you have a good day?

That's cute. I take it you have nothing else serious to say.

reply to post by bsbray11


awww..c'mon lighten up..I'm trying not to be so negative



and I understand that your perception of me is negative..but then again that doesn't make sense to someone who thinks that everything is neither good nor bad ? It seems illogical that you would put that label on me considering your view that negatibe and positive don't really exist.

Now your just getting plain confusing..

Have a good day, or a good sleep, which ever time zone you are in.

and I do sincerely mean that bsbray.

(I do lay out what is in my heart bsbray, if you see that as negative well that is your concern..I'm just trying to be honest)

You guys are running away from the main ideas.
If we judge nothing as good or bad, and feelings follow judgment, what kind of feelings prevail?

reply to post by Manula


hmmm..My guess is that if we judge nothing as good or bad the emotions that follow are indifference,apathy,
or just no emotion whatsoever.

If we did not judge things as good or bad, then we should not have ANY laws, if that was the case, what kind of pandamonium would result ??? Those who think NOTHING is wrong with thievery would have stop at nothing to get what they want..Those who see nothing wrong wrong with having sex with children,would most certainly continue to traumatize them. And those who have no problem with rape,and violence would get free reign to do as they please.

I'm not sure the OP was actually taking things to that level though.

Originally posted by gabby2011
and I understand that your perception of me is negative..

Again, no, it's not. I can repeat this a million times and apparently it's to no avail; it just does not sink in, at all. There are a million shades of color and you always focus your energy into a narrow band of black or white, good or bad, positive or negative. There are many, many adjectives I could use to describe my feelings towards you without ever having to defer to the word "bad" or putting any kind of "negative" spin on it. This is the whole issue I am trying to address with the OP, here in the philosophy forum. It literally limits the directions you can think in, and when it isn't "good", what does that leave you with? Talk of rape, murder, etc. like you see in this thread already, since it's the opposite of "good" and you only have 2 different thoughts to work with.

but then again that doesn't make sense to someone who thinks that everything is neither good nor bad ? It seems illogical that you would put that label on me considering your view that negatibe and positive don't really exist.

You put the label on yourself, with all the "negative" things you've been bringing up in post after post while trying to force me to say "bad" things exist. This is what we just argued about, remember? I just honestly don't think you're even trying to put any thought into what I say, which is why I feel I am wasting my time here.

Have a good day, or a good sleep, which ever time zone you are in.

and I do sincerely mean that bsbray.

I know you're trying to be cute again but I appreciate it for what it's worth, and I did sleep good. These are common expressions of language, but they really are meaningless when you think about them. If you don't think so then just look for a scientific definition or evidence/proof of what is "really" "good" and "bad." There is obviously no such thing, and the very idea is absurd.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I can repeat this a million times and apparently it's to no avail; it just does not sink in, at all.

Believe me, i know the feeling As a previous teacher of non-duality i understand what you are going through. You can believe that or not. Though, really, the ironic part is that "non-duality" practiced by a dualistic system (the human body) ends up being dualistic by its nature. "No, its not that, its this." Even the very idea of non-duality is dualistic by its very premise.

There are a million shades of color and you always focus your energy into a narrow band of black or white, good or bad, positive or negative. ... It literally limits the directions you can think in ... since it's the opposite of "good" and you only have 2 different thoughts to work with.

Sorry for the editing there..

Why have you chosen two of those colors as less worthy than others? It seems by thinking that things are not "those things" that we are introducing duality ourselves. Why are the peak and valley of the wave any different from every other piece on it? Why do you view such things as more/less valid?

You put the label on yourself, with all the "negative" things you've been bringing up in post after post while trying to force me to say "bad" things exist. This is what we just argued about, remember? I just honestly don't think you're even trying to put any thought into what I say, which is why I feel I am wasting my time here.

From the perspective that is being put forth, such responses are truly missing the mark... They are still dealing with vast amounts of subjectivity viewed as objectivity. When we remove the duality from that, is when we truly start to grow

If you don't think so then just look for a scientific definition or evidence/proof of what is "really" "good" and "bad." There is obviously no such thing, and the very idea is absurd.

To you, perhaps, but your viewpoint does not apply beyond your own body. The belief system you have in place relegates "good and bad" or the peak/valley of the wave, to be inconsequential because there are also other parts on the wave.

i used the analogy before, but depending on ones definition of "good," then it most certainly is applicable scientifically. Not necessarily in the subjective sense, however. If one was at point A, and wanted to get to point B, would they go to point C? Now, there will be something to learn in all, undoubtedly, but if we want to get to point B, the successful way, or "good" way, to do so is not by going in the opposite direction. If most plants wish to thrive, they must grow in light. It doesnt mean the "bad" is to be avoided as per typical response, far from it, it is just in realizing that if we want to move our arm, we should not move our leg.

Now, as far as applying such things directly to science, the same thing can be said. If one wanted to observe the patterns in say, the LHC, they would do "well" to observe the LHC in some respect. There are "good," or "proper/successful," ways of carrying out pattern recognition and observation, and there are "bad," or "improper/faulty" ways as well. The more we are involved our mind exclusively, the further into the latter we grow.

hmm, so ill assume my words will be transferred into how you see it, so perhaps it will not be communicated "well." Perhaps all of this stems from my idea that the material universe is undeniably dualistic. In my context, that does not mean black/white, it means that the material universe is based on cycles, which are themselves based in duality. There is no part of the wave to deny or confirm as being different from the rest of the wave, however even as being parts of the same thing, they can have separate attributes (night/day as well as me/you). i also feel that not all things reside solely in the material universe, and that beyond, dualistic cycles may not be relevant. i also see the peak and valley of the wave (the two extremes) as equal parts of the wave. If we were to discard those things, physically (specifically used word, please note), the rest of the wave would have no boundaries, and that would be true non-dualism. Meaning also, that there would likely be no patterns whatsoever, or cycles. It is those waves and cycles that literally move the "heavens." It is the extremes, or peaks, that frequently manifest in the patterns that we can utilize and apply in the "real world."

First valley of wave:
Everything is seen as black/white. Instead of their being movement in between them, they are separate entities that have nothing to do with one another.

First peak of wave:
Many shades of grey are realized.

Second valley of wave:
Black/white is seen to no longer exist as separate entities, beyond that, they are seen to only be individual subjective concepts instead of them being understood as individual contexts on concepts that might exist in the material world.

Second peak of wave:
Black and white start to gain meaning, as it is slowly understood that any discarding of parts along the wave would be dualistic in nature.

That was my own journey through this, years ago, and it was through the "extremes," or the black/white/peak/valley that i realized the movement of the physical universe. Do note, i do not believe all of our "being" resides in this duality, as i have mentioned several times. i cant go into specifics on the scientific side, but pattern/cycle recognition, frequently by the extremes first, is the very basis for science.