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Why Good and Bad Can't Really Exist

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posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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Thats all true. Which side are you on?




posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by Manula
 


What's all true? If the OP is true, then there are no sides, only the illusion of sides.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT
Help me here because this has never made sense to me. I see, for example, child molestation as very bad. And don't tell me that the child agreed to it before they came here. Or that it's their 'karma' for a past life because you can't possibly support that with an intellectual argument.

That one society may view some act different from another I understand, but that still doesn't excuse causing another human being pain okay in my thinking.

I have listened to many of my new age friends tell me the same thing, but you should hear them whine when they feel like someone has done them wrong. I'm not trying to be a butt, but I haven't heard a good argument for your concept yet.

If you were kidnapped and tortured, would you be like "Oh, this cool. Nothing 'wrong' here?


I am in camp with you and was thinking the same thing before reading your post, this philosopy sounds like what ever's convenient at the time to believe regarding what's bad what's good, like the one perpertrating the bad does not see it as bad, but the one on the recieving end does



posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



To feel good or to feel bad? To make people feel bad or to make people feel good. What do you guys prefer?
Which side are you on?



posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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If the OP were banned for this post then he'd be the first to complain that he was treated badly by ATS. Good and evil, right and wrong exist. One needs only be victimized to know that such a statement is true.



posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by Manula
To feel good or to feel bad?


What if I told you my favorite feeling is more complex than "good" or "bad," and is closer to "serene," even though that doesn't get it either?

What if I told you I can find beauty and joy even in sadness?

What if I told you I find immense amounts of love in remembering and honoring the most tragic events to befall our loved ones?



posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by ararisq
If the OP were banned for this post then he'd be the first to complain


If I complained, that would be my fault and rest totally with myself, and I would never deny or make excuses for that. I don't have to make things into "good" or "bad."



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by ararisq
If the OP were banned for this post then he'd be the first to complain that he was treated badly by ATS. Good and evil, right and wrong exist. One needs only be victimized to know that such a statement is true.


And thus it would be proving the OP's point. If the OP was banned from this post, then that would be "bad" for him because it's something that he didn't want. For most people, they would put themselves in the OP's shoes and say, "Wow, if they banned ME just for making a post that would be bad" and so they super impose their position as such and this is how we get a "Good" and "Bad" as a society, but that would still mean that "Good" and "Evil" are just a perception and it would still be proving the point that is not objective but subjective to the individual and/or his or her society..

I'll leave now with this quote:




"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." - Albert Einstein

edit on 5-4-2011 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


What if i told you that if you make me feel bad, sad, fearful, painful etc, that would feel truly bad to me, not subjectively bad. What if i told you that if you stick a knife in my stomach that would feel bad. Do you feel like doing this? Which side are you on?
Do you feel like hurting people is the same as helping them? Do you feel like saving a girl from being raped is the same as raping her? If thats the case then i think you still have to choose sides. One day you will.



posted on Apr, 5 2011 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Manula
What if i told you that if you make me feel bad, sad, fearful, painful etc, that would feel truly bad to me, not subjectively bad.


Then I would say I don't understand you, and you are free to feel however you want, and no one else has any control over your own emotions but you. Again, nothing to do with "good" or "bad" on my part. I don't care.


What if i told you that if you stick a knife in my stomach that would feel bad. Do you feel like doing this? Which side are you on?


I have no reason to stick a knife in your stomach. Again, nothing to do with "good" or "bad." I find the apparent obsession with being stabbed odd.


Do you feel like hurting people is the same as helping them?


In many ways, yes. For example if you bought an alcoholic some liquor, are you "helping" or "hurting"? A millionaire is stressed out because they can't pay for all their extravagances, so a friend gives them a large sum of cash to help them stay afloat another month. "Helping" or "hurting" in the long run? It isn't as black and white as you would like to think. The world is more complicated, and if that translates to being scary for you, so be it. It is still more complicated than black and white. All in the eye of the beholder. Whether you are "helping" or "hurting" depends on what the agenda is, and there is no proving whose agenda is best.


Do you feel like saving a girl from being raped is the same as raping her?


It most certainly could be, for example if the girl keeps putting herself in situations that make her vulnerable to rape, but is saved by someone else, thus not learning how to avoid putting herself in the situation in the first place. Maybe she's raped by no fault of her own, though. Then maybe next time she'll be carrying mace or a tazer? If I was a woman who was raped, that's what I would do. I can only speak for myself. I still don't have to break these things into "good" and "bad" and obsess over them in that way.


If thats the case then i think you still have to choose sides. One day you will.


If you must have sides, then look at it this way.

You are caught in duality. I'm not. Therefore I'm on a "better" side than you.

Do I really believe that? No. But if I truly believed in "good" and "bad" like you do, would I consider non-duality a better perspective than seeing everything in polarity? Yes, I would.




And my questions above were not rhetorical. They were literal facts.


I most enjoy feeling neither "good" nor "bad" (which are meaningless to me). I enjoy clear, serene, quiet moments. Nothing "good" or "bad" about that. I also enjoy exciting moments, where there is a lot of action and danger, like running from the police. It gets my adrenaline pumping. Again, nothing "good" or "bad" about that as far as I'm concerned. I don't think in black and white.


I do find joy and beauty in sadness and depression. As hard as that may be to understand, it's true. I don't obsess over being sad or depressed, but if such a mood hits me, it doesn't affect me the way it would most other people. Again, because I don't judge this as "good" or "bad," so it makes me stronger in that regard.


And I do find immense love in remembering and honoring the most tragic events to befall our loved ones. This is why war monuments are built. Or, in the case of my own grandmother, she found a pair of small dusty trousers in her basement the other day. There was a story behind them. They belonged to one of my cousins when they were young, 60 years ago. The boy's father, my uncle, drowned in a boat accident. When someone found his wife at home and informed her that her husband had just drowned and was dead, she spilled bleach all over the trousers and ruined them. My grandma, my uncle's sister, came into possession of the trousers and kept them ever since, as a reminder of that day when they were told that her brother had drowned. It was a tragic event, but she kept a momento of it out of her love for her brother, and to honor the memory of that accident.


These are examples of why the world is more complicated than "good" and "bad," black and white.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


I understand that thing about transcending duality, not judging, etc etc, I know law of one, i know all the polarity integration stuff bla bla bla, accept the moment etc etc

You feel good feeling bad.Thats what you say. I understand that but i think you wont feel good if i break your leg in cold blood.

You have to understand, you can manage emotions but your objective is to live well, to feel feelings that you like... So if you like them they are good to you.

You cant deny this. You can take whatever feeling you want and transform it into some kind of feeling you accept and enjoy, you are always trying to feel good.

So don´t tell me you don´t choose sides. Of course you do. If you didn´t you would just accept and like everything, even the hardest experience Thats not the case. I guarantee that the feeling of a knife entering your body is not something you can transform in a nice experience....

The knife stuff is to show you that certain experiences definetly feel bad, you can put them in the bad categorie for sure.

Another question is the direction your life goes from a bad experience.. In the long run a bad thing can transform into a good thing. People learn, people open new doors from bad experiences. But that is another question.

God works in misterious ways. Dont pretend to know what will be good in the long run. Like: I will let that girl be raped, maybe it will be good for her in some way i cant see right now.

Thats just ridiculous.

We are humans living in 3D. Here we live in polarity. Get used to it or not... Its your choice.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 07:22 PM
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Those who philosophically do away with the existence of good and evil are those who have too much time on their hands and haven’t yet personally experienced the horrors of evil. But there’s cures for such delusional rubbish: One gang raping where they’re sodomized against their will for six hours to the brink of death and dumped naked on a roadside in subzero temperatures is just one of many cures.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by Manula
I understand that thing about transcending duality, not judging, etc etc, I know law of one, i know all the polarity integration stuff bla bla bla, accept the moment etc etc

You feel good feeling bad.Thats what you say. I understand that but i think you wont feel good if i break your leg in cold blood.


No, you obviously don't really understand because you insist on continuing to use the words "good" and "bad." I don't need them to avoid having my leg broken. That's what you don't understand. Just because I don't see things as "good" or "bad," doesn't mean I'm willing for you to break my leg, or that you would be able to, or that I'm going to murder someone, or any nonsense like that.


Someone else posted this but it could have equally been directed at you:


Originally posted by LafingWithTears
OK, so I was going to ask you why cultures that adhere to these ideas are not reprobate (I know reprobate is a "judgemental" term but humor me) but I did some research and found that they reach some of the same conclusions on how to act just from a different direction, to borrow an example; you step on a nail and make a rule...thou shalt not step on nails. The taoist however simply would refrain from stepping on nails because it hurts and might advise others not to only because of his experience.


So instead of needing to say... "This is BAD!," you can avoid things you find unpleasant anyway, without EVER having to pass judgment of "good" or "bad" onto them. But you seem to choose to want to label things as "good" and "bad" anyway. All you are doing is creating polarity in your own life. Since I don't worry about "bad," I am seriously one of the most stress-free people you would ever come across. I would also say I react well under stress, again, because I don't know "good" or "bad" and don't even mind to die. I still have a will, and I still exercise that will, and I can even think and use logic and reason things, but I can do it all without committing the useless fallacy of having to pass judgment. "Good" and "bad" are all in your head and they do nothing for you but create limitations that are not necessary for you.


You have to understand, you can manage emotions but your objective is to live well, to feel feelings that you like... So if you like them they are good to you.


How do you define "live well"? I'll bet you money that your definition of "living well" is going to be different from mine, and also different than most other people on ATS or anywhere else on Earth. Because it doesn't really mean anything. You can tell me what it means to "live well" according to you, but that doesn't mean it's going to change what I find enjoyable myself.


You cant deny this. You can take whatever feeling you want and transform it into some kind of feeling you accept and enjoy, you are always trying to feel good.


I can deny that, in many different ways. Where do you want to start? Do you want to start with the fact that what "feels good" to one person can be painful or even frightening to another? Look at sadists, and people who enjoy sadism. Whoops, looks like your argument has already been shown to be arbitrary. How about the fact that some Asian monks purposefully put themselves through loneliness and other hardship in order to strengthen their character? Whoops, looks like another example of this statement being proven wrong.



So don´t tell me you don´t choose sides.


I don't choose "sides" between "good" and "bad." That's like asking me to pick sides between God or Satan when I don't believe in either of them either. You are coming across to me now as the philosophical equivalent of a religious nut that can't see beyond their own paradigm. There are entire philosophies (such as Taoism) that support what I am saying to you now, that "good" and "bad" are arbitrary (think about what that means) and therefore meaningless. You have to realize this isn't just some guy on an internet forum, there are whole communities of people that are smart enough to realize this information in the world, and these facts have been around for hundreds of years and are revered as being very wise words. If you never even consider them, you're going to be lost, and you're never going to convince me of anything.


Of course you do. If you didn´t you would just accept and like everything, even the hardest experience Thats not the case. I guarantee that the feeling of a knife entering your body is not something you can transform in a nice experience....


I notice you continually return to violence against others. Please, come find me and try to exercise violence over me and see, in person, how my perspective would deal with this situation. When I don't distinguish between "good" and "bad" that means I'm just as likely to stab or shoot you for even trying to do something to me against my own will, so think about that too. Not believing in "good" or "bad" isn't going to change this reality. I can operate without the baggage you apparently require to think. Anything you can think or do, I can also think or do, without having to think in my head, "okay, this is good," or "okay, now this thing here is baaad." I don't even go there. You apparently obsess over it, to the point of trying to get someone to admit your viewpoint, when they are totally alien to it. You are at least going to understand that I don't think at all like you, by the end of our discussion.


The knife stuff is to show you that certain experiences definetly feel bad, you can put them in the bad categorie for sure.


I can tell you that if you just tried to stab me, and got stabbed or shot back yourself, I wouldn't feel "bad" looking over your bleeding body as I called the authorities. You just have to pass judgment over every situation apparently. I don't. No need to pass judgment. "It is what it is." Saying "this is good" or "this is bad" is passing judgment, and it's a waste of your brain. It accomplishes nothing, is purely an artifact of the ego, and isn't actually going to help you deal with anything.


Another question is the direction your life goes from a bad experience.. In the long run a bad thing can transform into a good thing. People learn, people open new doors from bad experiences. But that is another question.


I have never had either a "good" experience nor a "bad" experience in my entire life. Why? Because I never passed such a judgment. You would only be tying emotional knots around yourself in doing so, and creating problems for yourself that are completely unnecessary. I could sit an obsess over "bad" things that happened to me, but I fail to see what advantages you gain over me by doing this. I can reflect even more accurately than you on past experiences imo, because I'm not actively trying to pass judgment over any of it. I can still learn from patterns.


God works in misterious ways. Dont pretend to know what will be good in the long run. Like: I will let that girl be raped, maybe it will be good for her in some way i cant see right now.


I never said it would be, I just gave you an example as to how your "logic" could be wrong. There are many different examples that could illustrate this.

Also you just said "Dont pretend to know what will be good in the long run." BINGO! That is NOT passing judgment. You think things are "good" and "bad"? Well guess what, you just contradicted yourself, because now you're saying NOT to pass judgment. It's either one or the other, you can't have it both ways, now can you?




We are humans living in 3D. Here we live in polarity. Get used to it or not... Its your choice.


You live in polarity, and yes, it is definitely your choice to do so.
edit on 6-4-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by soleprobe
 


If you try to rape me and are yourself seriously injured instead, what "cure" would you try on me next?

I suppose it's my fault if you're a helpless victim.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by soleprobe
 


If you try to rape me...


Where did I say "I" would rape you? You can't discern good from evil and you can't read either.



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by soleprobe
 


Generic "you," could be anyone.

Going to say anything else, or is that, plus an insult, all you have left to say?



posted on Apr, 6 2011 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by soleprobe
 


Generic "you," could be anyone.


Not true. I can read and that “you”, “yourself”, and “you” was referring to me:


If you try to rape me and are yourself seriously injured instead, what "cure" would you try on me next?




Going to say anything else, or is that, plus an insult, all you have left to say?


Hey… go back and read what you said. Was it not you who threw the initial insult by assuming me to be a “helpless victim”?



posted on Apr, 7 2011 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by soleprobe
Not true. I can read and that “you”, “yourself”, and “you” was referring to me:


Okay, it still could refer to anyone and my point would be the same. I'm not a helpless rape victim, and I don't plan to be. There is such a thing as a "high risk situation." It has nothing to do with fairytale "good" or "bad" judgments, it has to do with individuals who have real emotional problems. What is your point?


Hey… go back and read what you said. Was it not you who threw the initial insult by assuming me to be a “helpless victim”?


Is "helpless victim" an insult now?

Come on man, move past the word games to the substance of your argument, whatever that's supposed to be.
edit on 7-4-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2011 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


I guess its in your path to live like that. Just remember, when you make choices you are trying to discern whats best. You have to judge between choices. Whats the best choice? You are choosing then, you must analyze and choose.
We live in a world where you have polarity. Thats why we have free will. To choose between the two sides.
Will i choose fear or love?
Will i choose to help people or to harm them?
Will i choose to see the bright side of life or the dark side.
We can accept the existence of the two sides and not judge them, understanding that there is no darkness without light. In fact, we wouldn't understand what good feels like if we haven't felt bad.
I understand, good and bad cant live without each other.
But you have to choose.
Thats the name of the game: to choose.
We have free will to choose.
One day, in other dimensions free will will be gone, there will be nothing to choose, there will be only light love, but now, in 3D, we have to choose.
For me its the end of this discussion.
I wish you the best (not the worst) whatever that is.



posted on Apr, 7 2011 @ 01:12 PM
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I like this thread. Thought I'd add what I've been thinking lately.

There is no good or bad; hot or cold; short or long. All these things exist inside your mind. And by labeling and passing judgement, all it serves to do is to fragment and distort reality and reality doesn't work like that. Reality isn't black and white. Night doesn't turn into day at a certain, specific point that you and I can locate and label. It melds and mushes together.

All these things are relative to YOU and your perception, your cultural conditioning, and your programming. Look, I see people on here using the rape and violence as things to justify their argument and again, reality doesn't work like that.

The suicide bomber terrorists believe they are doing the right thing. According to their upbringing and conditioning, they honestly think they will go to heaven and be with the virgins or whatever it is and do justice in the eyes of their god. But you look at an event like that and, due to your culture and conditioning, the words "bad" and "evil" come to mind.

The gang that rapes a girl or whatever, the gang doesn't see anything wrong with that. What happens there, it just is. There is no wrong there. There is no bad there. There is no evil there. All that exists in your mind. It's a hard pill to swallow.

Step out of your mind, step out of the prison that you've created for yourself and experience what it's like to be free.

Until then, good day.




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