China launches new type of sub, American intelligence "suprised"

yeah it costs 2 billion dollars big deal being exspensive doesnt mean its good.
i mean look at plumbers? they cost like tons of money but are crap (not all are but most are)
west point thats what the germans said in ww2 and they got thier asses kicked by the russians.

According to facts the B-2 is harder to detect than the F-117 and there only has been one night hawk lost in its 24 years of service so the B-2 therefore is better and harder to detect by radar. Read this site about the RCS of the F-117, B-2, B-1, F/A-22 and JSF.

www.centennialofflight.gov...

[edit on 27-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

yes thats cause u went againt 3rd world countries not a country with up to date radar.
also as the number of radar sites increases so does the chance of getting caught

I had been hearing reports that in the first gulf war supposedly some Iraqi early warning radar managed to pick up nighthawks on lower frequency or something like that. And throwing cash at an aircraft project is no subsitute for a good design. Look at the Gripen, its an excellent fighter yet had a small budget. Also the F-22s could have had more stealth but a lot of it was comprimised for speed. So F-22ss can also be detected by a good radar.

see they should of went with th YF23 but no the USAF high comand is stupid and doesnt want a great plane and just wants a good plane.

The YF-23 wasn't that much better than the F-22. The F-22 is a little bit slower but its more manuverable. So the F-22 was better for air superiority while the YF-23 probably would have been a better attack aircraft. As far as stealth there was little difference.

oh no the YF23 had speed,stealth,range and a larger payload and looks nicer all much better for a airsuperiority fighter especially the looking gd part you cant beat ur enemy in a thing that looks crap/really bad.
now the f22 is a nice plane i'll admit but the YF23 is much nicer.

I didn't hear to many details about the YF-23. Pretty interesting though. I like the engine design on the YF-23. I don't see why Lockheed Martin and Northrop/Mcdonnel Douglas didn't just work together. They probably based the desition on cost effectiveness or something. Of course Lockheed seems to be getting a lot of contracts these days.

Thats kinda scary. The US needs to do something about its intelligents. All that tax money i give to the US govenment and they can't even keep their eyes open to possible threats. This isn't a new problem caused by Bush, this is definitly a problem though. What the hell is wrong with the US intelligents? Can some answer that for me?

umm dude your intel services cant tell of every aircraft or plane or ship that comes along.
also its a hell of a lot easier to hide stuff in china cause of thier gov system.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
I had been hearing reports that in the first gulf war supposedly some Iraqi early warning radar managed to pick up nighthawks on lower frequency or something like that. And throwing cash at an aircraft project is no subsitute for a good design. Look at the Gripen, its an excellent fighter yet had a small budget. Also the F-22s could have had more stealth hbut a lot of it was comprimised for speed. So F-22ss can also be detected by a good radar.

Stealth is usually designed for cheating high frequecy radar, low frequency radar (usually used for early warning) can still detect them. The other way to detect them is using passive radar, which is the tech many country are studying.

China has a lot low frequecy early warning radar and it detected a lot of times of the activities of stealth planes (early warning radar can detect targets thousand of miles away). But the problem of low frequency radar is it is not for the purpose of precisely locate and lock the target, so it can not guide the missile system.

The other is passive radar. On this tech, the most tech advanced country is Czech Republic's Vera radar. Passive radar is US most worrying technology because they think it will offset the US's stealth tech advantage. Recently US blocked a saling of this radar to China, and almost give Czech Republic 100 million $$$s for compensating Czech's economic loss. You can refer the report "Radar sale to China stopped"
www.washtimes.com...

Devilwasp is right. Nobody can see everything thats coming. And besides we all find out eventually. Nobody had any idea what the Manhattan Project was when we made the atomic bomb. We shocked the world with it. Russia scared the crud out of the world when the tested their first A-bomb. I don't see what the big deal about the CIA being suprised about some diesel-electric sub. Its not even nuclear powered so its probably defensive.

Could the USAF use the X-45c or X-45a to take out the radar sites before the B-2's and F/A-22 start flying over a certain country I imagine since the X-45 is only 25 feet long and 3 feet thick it would be much harder to detect on radar than the B-2 or F/A-22 plus if you loose them they are replaceable and no one died.

Westpoint size has virtually nothing to do with stealth in modern combat. Now its all about how much of the radar waves are absorbed or deflected away from the source of origin. But the concept of using unmaned drones for wild weasal missions sounds good.

[edit on 7/27/2004 by cyberdude78]

Bu CD the amount of surface that radar waves have to bounce off of is limited according to the size plus give the X-45 a cover of ram and you got nothing to worry about.

Actually, the AF is going to be putting micorwave weapons on the CALCM, tommahawk and the JASSM for this type of attack. They are looking at the MALD as well for a microwave warhead.

Send a few of these babies out ahead and BZZZZZZZZZZZZ no radar

Greetings,

Alrighty, I think that some members of this are opposed to the "Big Picture". When you view Chinese Military Capabilities on their own, they don't seem all that impressive at the moment. When you start listing their Aircraft Numbers, types, troops, Missiles etc etc It becomes more and more impressive, now, how would the US deal with 1000+ SAM systems, with unlimited replacements, I don't care what is said, bloody Luke Skywalker would have a problem, avoiding SAMs and Fighters together at the same time. You play in their back yard, even 7 Carriers wouldn't have the aircraft to counter it, POINTER, the f22 won't be in service for another 3 years, plus the b2 can be detected, you point the radar straight up

Westpoint, look at Iraq and you see how well your troops are dealing with hostile forces, so far you have lost over 30 high proformance aircraft so far, and some report over 2000 dead, training means you will last longer, not that you will surive and over come. Thats a fact.

Please, for the rest of the members, stop with the view point that the US are the "Best" Better than the rest or "The Master Race". The Germans in WW2 thought they would beat every one, they did pretty well in the start, but you see where that attiude got them? History is there to teach us our mistakes so that we learn from them and not repeat them. Not viewing other possabilities is ignorance, So is a fixed mind set.

When you start listing their Aircraft Numbers, types, troops, Missiles etc etc It becomes more and more impressive, now, how would the US deal with 1000+ SAM systems, with unlimited replacements,

Troops ok yeah they got numbers so what al we got to do is bomb their farms and blockade their shores and they will starve faster than we can kill them. Try feeding 1.5 billion people when your agricultural products are being bombed and no imported food is getting to you. What about their number of aircraft its nothing the US cant handle. Like FredT said the USAF has got plenty of ways to eliminate the SAMs Via unmanned drones with PGM's or other systems, now unlimited replacements someone is reading a bit too much from the PR manual nothing is unlimited. Also even 7 carrier don't have the airplane to counter what?
Another example of how the chicoms misinform their people POINTER the USAF will be getting the first operational squadron of raptors next year buddy .

The F-22 air superiority fighter is being developed to replace the aging F-15 aircraft with Initial Operational Capability projected for December 2005. The Air Force is projected to obtain a total of 339 aircraft.
From globalsecurity.org

Raptor squadron coming in 2005

Our troops are doing well Iraq now is post war reconstruction not the actual battle field we beat Iraqi army in 3 weeks. Uhh...I don't call loosing helicopters and C-130's as high performance jets And we have 900 dead in Iraq where are you getting your 2000 dead crap from? maybe some chicom PR manual I guess

Also your going to detect the B-2 if you point the radar straight up that wont work genius cuz the B-2 doesn't have to fly directly above the radar site so while you keep it straight up we just go around it
Don�t you know the B-2 has systems which allow it to fly and see radar zones and avoid them.

umm westpoint you do know he's from NI which is on the other side of the world from china? hell if i go to my coastline i can see it.
also name me one squadron with operational UCAV's ,not a test squadron an actual combat squadron.
also what are u going to bomb paddy fields? crops? thier agriculture system can be rebuilt in a day mabye less.
also the US navy hasnt got a plane that is designed to take out SAM's thats the A-10's job.the F-18 can do it but its more designed for A2A attacks not SAM fights.

Greetings,

I am not sure to take your responses as the ramblings of a child or merely some one talking out of their depth.

Alright, I will break this into a point by point format, so that for the less mentally inclined of the membership can follow it clearly, without error. [Hopefully: Stupitidy knows no bounds]

Combat Deaths
This one is simple, rather than depending on the US news services, such as CNN or Fox, or any other News Network provider, I prefer to seek out a number of sources and then average them out. That requires the ability to count, also to use complex functions, such as adding and dividing, if you have issues in these areas I can direct you to a suitable website.

I prefer to have a wider range of figures to make my comments rather than depending on one fixed source, and if, as I believe you have based your comments on the combat deaths of US Troops, you are putting tomuch trust in a Second hand source that has had "questionable" stories in the past and cloudy morals.

Aircraft Loses
High Proformance Aircraft, I personally include helicopters in that format, as they are the ones that would be involved in any land conflict, plus at 7 Million US per unit [Aka per Aircraft], that is alot of money and "Protected" Aircraft, that have been shot down by a Force of lightly armed rebels within the "free iraq".

Now if these people can shoot down so many aircraft without the latest in US technology, using old soviet RPGs [Anti Tank weapons] 30 yr old Roland [Hand Held SAMS], without the latest Sovet anti missile technology and training, how do you think a force that is trained to shoot down US aircraft, with the latest in Soviet Missile systems. [Factor in their advanced SAM systems that the Chinese have "gained" or brough from the Soviets/Russians, or other East Block Countries]

Also, it was a AC130 not the Cargo Version which you stated in that reply, I will see about providing a picture. [Note: I never said High Preformance-JET, I said aircraft]

US Battle Tactics

Troops ok yeah they got numbers so what al we got to do is bomb their farms and blockade their shores and they will starve faster than we can kill them. Try feeding 1.5 billion people when your agricultural products are being bombed and no imported food is getting to you.

LOL I am sorry but that is the first thing I did when I saw that. ::Watches fleets of b2s bombing paddy fields:: lol sorry i can't help myself.

I agree that the US could bomb the Farms etc, but how? Stealth Aircraft? you would need what... a few 100 thousand aircraft to strike those farms and Vietnam proved that even with "Agent Orange" they still did ok, that may have worked for Europe in WW2 but I don't think it would work with China.

Like FredT said the USAF has got plenty of ways to eliminate the SAMs Via unmanned drones with PGM's or other systems, now unlimited replacements someone is reading a bit too much from the PR manual nothing is unlimited.

Quote one operation unit of UAVs that have a "Wild Weasel" ability. Sure you can attack SAM sites but missiles and launchers are in large numbers within China, that is based off a number of Pentagon "White Papers" which I will be happy scan or find a online version for you.

I Haven't read an air defence Chinese Manual, if you have a link to one, I would be quite happy to read it. PS things like missiles are quite cheap in relations to aircraft, and for china are their primary anti aircraft capability.

Another example of how the chicoms misinform their people POINTER the USAF will be getting the first operational squadron of raptors next year buddy

Well I was a wee bit taken back by this as you are assuming that I am Chinese, lol Sorry, but even after stating I was from Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom. If you require a map, that is nice and big with the text in large bold font, I will also pass a suitable link to you.

Note: It will take the US another 3 years for those F 22 to be even near half strength, and allow their crews to train in them

In regards to your B2 Comment, thats easy

A F117 was downed in a similar manner, you trick them. You move around your radar sites or units, layering them, with the systems shut down, with the only tracking systems operating that are passive, IR [Also sound, which is more of a problem for the F117 due to the baffles]. Now you know which targets they will want to strike, you lay in wait using your mobile units, those aircraft use engines, those engines get hot, shielded or not and for most early Soviet Missiles have a backup IR tracking ability [This Feature, based on some of the SAM systems that the US and UK troops found in Iraq have IR tracking as standard, in case the parent Radar site should be attacked, it can still home in on its target through IR].

Note for you, Operation/Tactical intell that would point out these sites, isn't always effective, due to the use of decoy's etc

Oh, are you a member of west point or, whats the term, "Wannabe" ?

- Phil
NI Part of the United Kingdom

Aka on the other side of the world from China

[edit on 28-7-2004 by gooseuk]

[edit on 28-7-2004 by gooseuk]