Military chaplain: Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'

reply to post by projectvxn

1 Rawstory is decidedly anti military and anti American.

Agreed.

However, it may be true.
If it is true the rapist needs to see jail time and the Chaplin needs his head examined...

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'm not denying that the rape happened.

Please read beyond the first sentence.

I would respond more but it would only fall on deaf ears.

All I will say is that he is wrong. It is never God's will that any harm befall anyone. There are reasons for things but God did not will it or cause it to happen.

Raist

reply to post by projectvxn


I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm sorry if I was not being clear.
I apologize.

A: If you believe in a omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has a greater plan for existence ALL things are his will.

B: Why is it so hard to swallow that if there is a greater purpose to life and being able to learn is part of your souls path that suffering and enduring pain could ultimately be a good thing when you pass to the next existence?

C: While I am generally happy to bash Christianity I can't in this instance because I don't think that particular Chaplain is representative of modern (note the word modern people) Christian philosophy.

D: As already stated there is a very good chance the Chaplains words have been twisted and misinterpreted.

E: uhhh I don't have an E...

reply to post by SLAYER69


No need for apologies, sir. It was my misunderstanding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OT:

I'm very disappointed at the lack of fact checking by some here. It seems like if it is demonizing the US Military, and demonizing the US in general, and demonizing Christians, then it MUST BE true.

Is anyone else concerned by this lack of fact checking? I sure am.

i think its always important to consider all of the evidence first. many times in lawsuits and divorce proceedings, the petition speaks of severe sexual and domestic abuse and seeks millions of dollars in compensation. it is only later resolved that there was no abuse and parties settle in a more rational manner; millions of dollars asked is reduced by the court to under 100k. look, no one is saying nothing happened. what's in the complaint is sometimes not exactly what happened. if the evidence bears out the truth that she was raped and the chaplain said what he/she said, then criminal charges should ensue for the defendant and the chaplain and commanding officer should be court martialed as a military officers. i wasn't there and no one here was either. that's why trials take place. without passion or prejudice. lady justice must wear the blindfold.

reply to post by projectvxn

What lack of fact checking in particular? The article clearly states that it is an anecdotal story and also clearly states that this is part of an ongoing lawsuit. What am I misunderstanding here?

Originally posted by Jinglelord
A: If you believe in a omnipotent, omnipresent deity who has a greater plan for existence ALL things are his will.

That's essentially true. If you're a Chaplain, and buy into the whole supernatural deity thing, then you must believe that all things, regardless whether they seem "good" or "bad" to us puny mortals, must happen according to the deity's divine plan. After all, who are we to question the works of the almighty being?

The Book of Job spells this out pretty clearly. And if that's your Owner's Manual, then you pretty much have to agree with all of it, and not just pick and choose the parts that fit your particular prejudices and conveniences.

Originally posted by Akragon
God had nothing to do with it....

Other then the fact he created Karma...

Could I please get to read the same books you read, in order for me to understand what you posted, where does it show that god created karma? anywhere?

Karma is a religious concept coined by some Hindi beliefs based on their geographical location and onthologic social interactions and accumulations, , dont get me wrong, , but I believe we westerners are upside down in our beliefs and in our actions, we do not comprehend the things we speak of, because we do not care to do so, and have let in the hands of others our personal development.

In order to grasp the meaning, the whole meaning of karma and not just the TV implanted pseudo conceptualizations, you would have to be hindi, and follow any of the vedas to the letter, not just the spirit.

Its like saying one believes in Moses and Abraham, but not on the Torà, or the one believes in saints but is Christian, it makes no sense.

Its in the way we speak and try to put into words what we think the best indicator on the development and advancement of any given society, right now, yeah the interwebs might connect and allow us to know stuff, this global village decontextualizes the meanings behind the concepts, and therein lies the tragedy and the loss...

BTW, regarding the topic, since I was a young lad , the few women that went into the military have had a clear and present danger of being raped, It happens, many just decide to keep quiet, besides they signed off their civil rights, and nothing much can be done.
It is the sad truth, those are the real concerns behind women serving in mixed combat, we are weary of our own troops, and nothing can be done, because what could be done would mean CHANGING the whole system, as institutions are fractal reiterations of the main social structure...

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Thanks for that! Now I have an E

E: This is indeed clearly labeled as anecdotal story which suggests that we should be discussing the validity of the claims rather than accepting them as reality. Reading some of the earlier posts it does look as if people are applying their own anecdotal prejudice to decide whether or not they choose to believe this claim is real. As such we're all good! and opening up a potentially very enlightening discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you go to a holy person for advice it is voluntary and you are going to them because they are trained experts in the religion you subscribe to. If you're seeing a religious practitioner and disagree with their advice you don't sue them you go see another religious practitioner. The discourse between the two is private and voluntary, he is not being accused of breaking any laws, he is being accused of possibly saying what he believes as a holy man.

reply to post by getreadyalready


That sounds like the occult ideas from Aleister Crowley and New Thought, the idea that everything that happens is willed by the individual. That idea forms the foundation of Magick. Magick is essentially the art of volition.

I don't agree with it.

There a whole mess of problems that rises from this magickal thinking.

Its like saying German Jews asked for the Holocaust or the victims of Jeffrey Dahmer asked to be mutilated and cannibalized.

The world doesn't work like that.

There are too many forces and phenomena that fly in the face of New Thought and Magick.

The soldier didn't ask or will to be raped and G-d isn't a wish machine that gives us, good or bad, whatever we think we want.

If the Chaplain actually thinks this he needs to be relieved of duty.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective

When SGT Havrilla met with the military chaplain, he told her that 'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."

Well she should have kicked him right in the jewels and said
"Sorry father, God told me to do that"

reply to post by projectvxn


Article attached from the OP was pretty self explanatory, and knowing that when a mod par takes into a thread, for a brief moment in time, relinquishes his mod power, thus suggesting that he too can " fact find " and contribute to the thread, makes me wonder about your previous response?
What " facts" are you suggesting we locate? The article was rather elementary to begin with?

reply to post by Jinglelord

Most people, male or female, religious or non-religious, trained or not trained, really don't know what to say to someone who's been raped. The reality of it is that there really is not much anyone can say. But that doesn't stop people from trying to say things of comfort or to help. And for those things they usually dig deep within themselves and come up with what they know and can personally relate to. that's pretty natural. How this thread went so far off the mark and became this ridiculous religious discussion is just par for the course around here lately.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


The "world" doesn't work like that, because the world is extremely restricted into our physical existence and limited time.

Suppose a spirit comes and goes from the world multiple times, and learns almost everything there is to know about "life," but is missing just one little component. It "chooses" to be born into a loving young mother's arms, cradled for a few minutes with absolute unconditional love, and then passes away. The only little experience that spirit needed was to have that feeling for just a few moments, and now it can progress to whatever else awaits in the spirit world. Suppose the spirit of that mother had been blessed in all previous existences, but in this existence it chose to experience loss, in all of its forms, over and over, and she will live a life of sorrow, but her spirit will be better for it.

That is just a hypothetical answer, and I am certainly no expert on religion, I only have my personal experience. I rarely attend church, I don't believe Christ is the only saviour and mechanism to God, but I do pray regularly, and I have been both Blessed and Cursed, and I have been thankful for both.

I can't begin to imagine all of the intracacies of operating a system as big as the Earth, but I do know from just running small operations and projects that what you perceive is almost never the whole story, and things that make no sense in a narrow viewpoint, make perfect sense on a broader scale.

So, maybe that physical woman didn't ask for that rape, and on a local viewpoint it is a tragedy, but if she responds a certain way, and the world bends around her a certain way, and her attacker is influenced a certain way, and those of us reading this thread are influenced a certain way, and her spirit along with all the rest of our spirits get a little tidbit of growth through it all, then perhaps it is just what needed to happen.

That doesn't mean every evil thing that everybody does is justified, it just means it is part of the overall experience. Perhaps many people's spirits are being degraded over and over and even die. My father always said the definition of "hell" and "damnation" was just a death in the spiritual sense. To him "Hell" meant that one ceased to exist, no opportunity for redemption, no suffering, no nothing, just erased permanently and eternally. That is some scary stuff, I would take a fiery grave over a spiritual death anyday!

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I'm going to be cynical and evil for a minute:

What is she did will it? Look at the rewards she will reap. The military will likely pay her so much money she won't need to work for quite awhile if ever again.

I happen to believe the world does work that way and that life is a series of choices that you make consciously, subconsciously, or other. Your life is lived according to your will. The reason bad things happen is because nobody really wants life to be roses and tea. I get it; its a tough concept for most that a person would choose a life of suffering or even minor suffering. I can't understand why this concept is so hard. If you are a spiritual being here to learn then suffering is a teacher, if you are completely atheistic and believe this is it then it really doesn't matter because all will be left to oblivion shortly.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Keep in mind Lucid, that a large part of the article was indeed the ill-fated response of the chaplain. That is why this thread has become a religious discussion. Yes we all agree that the girl in question did not deserve to be raped, but as I have said before, ( not in so many words ) that religion has been a " tool " or means for as an " excuse ", all the while knowing that the basis of Religion has been the culprit of death and destruction over the ages. That is why fellow ATS'ers have decided to discuss the relationship of religion, and moral or ethical behavior administered by a chaplain, or the lack there of.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


An interesting comment after the article..

IF we replaced "God" with "Allah" and "church" with "Mosque" FOX news would rile up the troops about Sharia law taking over America.

So true...

reply to post by Jinglelord


From a post I made of a similar topic:

I do NOT condone any harmful actions towards a woman, especially rape. But playing Devils Advocate here, in the video one woman admitted that she knew it would ruin here career in the Army, is it possible that these women simply wanted out of unjust and illegal war? Our country is a country of due process, so with that, just because a woman claims she's been raped doesnt mean it actually happened? I'm not denying that rape occurs, being former military, I only heard of stories.
My current g/friend, was a military wife prior to her divorce, and while her husband was deployed, she had a friendly get together with girls and guys alike. Except one guy that showed up, whom btw she didn't know, showed up. After the party and people left, he showed back up claiming that he left his jacket? Next thing she knows, ( according to her story ) she was forced on the couch and the events that transpired don't need to be discussed. There was no abuse, no smacking or bruising...but a story non-the less.

I do wonder if all the details were disclosed to me. Yes I love my g/friend, and wouldn't question her as to the details as not provoke a touchy subject. So yes we do know unfortunate things happen. Regardless the chaplain was suppose to be caring, and counsel her...not put a religious spin on it.


* sidenote* if anyone read my lil tid bit of a story, and has any opinions, Im all ears....I sometimes wonder what really happened....



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