Military chaplain: Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'

Originally posted by the_0bserver85
reply to post by AeonStorm

 

This is personal level .... not a group level (not yet it is).

I understand what you are conveying and I do understand what you are saying. There is MANY people out there who follow this which is truly unfortunate and that is a travesty! But the idea of having BELIEFS is NOT a travesty! Only when a persons/groups beliefs fall into the wrong hands and transforms slowly that it becomes a travesty! This happens because a person or groups beliefs will becomes something of a gain.

If what is concerning you is the single person in question then that is something different as a whole.

BTW: I defend my spirituality as scientist defend their science. I should probably add that I took electronics engineering and LOVE science!

The chaplain will get a slap on the wrists, and that will be that, 99% of the time anyway Fact. However this is dressed up, it is just sick.

Originally posted by rogertom
The chaplain will get a slap on the wrists, and that will be that, 99% of the time anyway Fact. However this is dressed up, it is just sick.

Agreed ... I would string this guy up by the neck....(uhhh..my comment is rated "R" by the way)

I do not know where to begin on this topic. So much distortion of truth, so much distorted morality, I suppose any place is as good as the next for a jump in point.

I suppose I will start with the Man of the Cloth. The Chaplain declares it is God's will. What God does this Chaplain represent? What denomination of followers would follow this beacon of light? God's will that a person be raped, really? This is the Omnibenevolent God of Judaism? This is the loving word of Christ? This is the divine revelation of the Muslim Brotherhood of Muhamed? No, this isn't any man of God. This is a man who has no idea what any concept of God's will is for mankind. What can you expect out of a Man of the Cloth who blesses warriors on their way to destroy their fellow man. This too is not God's will. I am not surprised at the Chaplain, I am surprised that anyone expects anything less. What this Chaplain needs is to be sat down and explained what God's will is for mankind. He needs to be educated thoroughly on why the judgement he passed on this Sister of Man is unacceptable.

It is not surprising that the soldier did the rape either. We take our young men, most from poor troubled backgrounds, and teach them to fight and to kill, then we are shocked when they do something horrific. What is the difference between raping this girl and putting a bullet through a young Iraqi child? What is makes taking sex by force more traumatic than wiping your buddies brains off your face? Is it more immoral call in air support on a crowd of protesting civilians than it is to rape someone? Oh but this is someone on your side. Life is life. If you devalue one, you devalue them all. It is sad, it is tragic, it is the world we have created. We breed violence in our youth from the video games they play to the wars we send them off to. Then we turn on them and say "We expected you to behave!" when something goes wrong, like they turn on their own. Nonsense! This rapist has issues of his own that need healing. It is too easy to condemn him for his actions rather than take a long look in the mirror as a society of Man and realise this is what WE are creating.

The poor sister who was the victim here. Oh how misguided patriotism can lead one down a path of distruction. This is the ugly reality of war. This is the cost people pay for breeding hate and violence. I am certain her intentions were noble. I am sure she went into the military with every good thought of serving her fellow man. It is unfortunate that she had to learn the hard way that WAR is not glamorous. WAR is not noble. WAR is not fair. WAR is not peaceful. I truly hope she gets the love and support she needs to heal from her harsh lesson in reality. I hope she finds the grace to realise the self worth that was taken from her. I hope she has learned the ugly side of war that she will never ever wish to participate in it again. Even more, I hope she becomes a voice for peace, and an advocate for love. I hope this has not been stripped from her.

Society, what is wrong with us? Why do we glorify our own destruction? Why do we condemn the animals war makes of people? Are the material possessions, our way of life, the greed, the arrogance, the hate, and the power worth the sacrifice we are making with our own humanity? When will we wake up and call for peace? When will we demand it? When will we stop buying the lies? When will we throw the money lenders out of the temple of Man and work together for a better tomorrow? Have we learned NOTHING from our past? Are we learning NOTHING from our present? Who can point the finger at a single player in this drama, when they sit at home and do nothing to end this?

Every day I find a new reason to have my heart broken by this world. Every day I find hope that we will grow up. Such is the power of love.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Star! I don't fully agree but this is a well thought out intelligent reply.

First of all as I've said it doesn't really matter what God this is. All things that happen in a world with an omnipotent omnipresent God have to be by default God's will. He had the power to stop it and he knew it was happening. But remember the God of most religions has a greater plan for humanity. And when a Chaplain tells the woman it was God's will it is not a statement to cause her to believe God wants her raped but statement to remind a woman of faith that her suffering is not in vain and that because of God's infinite wisdom a good will come of her suffering. This is most likely the thought behind it and not a cruel "Ha ha God wanted you raped" as most people seem to be suggesting.

Most of the rest I agree with but I will leave with the thought, that while I don't believe in any Religion or even a God per se, I do believe that this is all part of a path humanity is on and in the end will be right. I wake up with a smile and I know from watching nature that growth is pain. The only true peace is to cease growing, find contentment, and whither away to a silent and eternal rest.

Originally posted by Jinglelord
First of all as I've said it doesn't really matter what God this is. All things that happen in a world with an omnipotent omnipresent God have to be by default God's will. He had the power to stop it and he knew it was happening. But remember the God of most religions has a greater plan for humanity. And when a Chaplain tells the woman it was God's will it is not a statement to cause her to believe God wants her raped but statement to remind a woman of faith that her suffering is not in vain and that because of God's infinite wisdom a good will come of her suffering. This is most likely the thought behind it and not a cruel "Ha ha God wanted you raped" as most people seem to be suggesting.

I can see and even agree with this view. It is not how I would explain it to someone who was recently raped as it does nothing for the healing process. I agree with this view nonetheless. Free will is a bitch. It is up to us to take charge of our free will and do something more noble than destroy each other.

God waits patiently.

Thank you for an excellent point my friend.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by Jinglelord


Interesting concept. While I can commend your statement for where it seems to stand on the issue, as a woman, it would only ruffle my feathers more. If you are to tell me that I should retain my faith in an all knowing and all powerful god because he has a master plan that could not be carried out without my suffering in the process would only lead me to ask just how smart and powerful a god is that could not come up with a better way to implement his plan to have me raped. Seems atithetical in nature no matter what good intentions people try to put behind it. If that god has that master plan and is all powerful and all knowing then he should be able to better implement that plan without having people raped in the process. It just seems like bad leadership and a very poor example to set. Given that premise we can then go on to say that maybe someday that Chaplin will be in a position to rape someone and justify it as part of a master plan that the victim does not understand. Afterall, his god that he loves so much allows it as standard operating procudure.

Not sitting well no matter how it put but you put the best intentions behind it I have seen so far so at least good on you for that.

Apologies in advance for not reading the whole thread so far, and, for those who will be offended by my words.. which is not my intention.

There are a number of Perception Levels involved here and only one or two are being addressed, I think

On the most basic level, a human being, there is perception of Injustice which has attached to it Beliefs about Good and Evil, what God should think or Do.. all of these are underscored with Emotional Content powered by a Need for the Belief-System to be Right.

So at this level we can all see the suffering of this Lady in the hands of her attacker. We can see a representative of the Christian Religion trying to find an answer that many here Believe is Wrong, and then there is the Attacker who automatically is assigned as being Bad.. Evil.

This level of Perception is unable to Perceive much else because of it's Indoctrinated Limitations.

Let's say we can access the "next" level of Perception higher than just Human.....

We might all see more things in play with this scenario. At this level we see the agreements these souls have made to create specific situations offering intense experiences.. and we know at this level that Experiences are all Valid with no Value-based Judgement System involved... since that is a purely human level of Perception and part of the Human Experience. I call this level of perception Soul Level Awareness.

Okay, so for those of you still not peeved with me yet...

Let's say we step up another Perception Level? Why not.. I call this Oversoul levels of Awareness.

Since Soul level is an experience far more massive than anything we may imagine in our Human Experience, then Over-Soul levels would be a thousand-times more so.... or more. And at these levels we Know all Exerience is Valid.. AND.. that nothing can happen without the Support of God.. no matter if you Believe "God" to be a Physical Being as per the Bible, or, simply as Our Aware Universe.

Anyone still reading ?

So, Yes it is fine to feel Sympathy for the Lady in suffering. Yes it is fine to feel anger at the Attacker, and the Churchman.. because that is a natural Reaction in the Human Experience level.

But, let's not stay stuck at that level and then lose sight of any bigger picture. It is also probable that the attack occured because each person was fulfilling their Soul agreement, AND, it could not happen without the Support of "God".

Nothing can happen without that Support.

I know that idea goes against every grain we humans can think of.. it grinds against our emotions and our mind. It does not seem to fit into any Perception we know.. which is correct since we are only perceiving in a Limited fashion as a human being.

So if we then allowed ourselves to move into those emotional grindings, and we let ourselves feel them totally until we get a picture emerge in our mind.. the cause of that Belief/Feeling... then releasing this will allow you to grow a little more into the bigger picture reality around you.

This then would leaves us with Empathy for the Lady in suffering. It leaves us hopefully feeling some empathy for the attacker who is in need of healing also. And again, hopefully it leaves us thinking that this Churchman in a time of striving to find an answer to Assist this lady, may well have offered her an Insight into the Bigger Picture. In which case he would have been a Tool in Use by "God" as it planted a Seed of Growth that will wait till the ground is fertile.

Or.. I may be crazy.. you decide.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Or.. I may be crazy.. you decide.

I will not say you are crazy but let me restated what I just posted so that you may understand it. The idea that some god would cause or allow a woman to be raped so that people can learn and grow just makes me weep for the people that would humble themselves to such a weak and ill equipped god. If an all powerful being, force, or whatever you want to call it cannot get simple humans to learn or grow without introducing suffering upon certain individuals then how can that god be either omnipotent or oniscient?

Basically what is being put forth is this concept that God's will includes rape so that people on the OUTSIDE can see how bad rape is and learn from that? Well it seems that same god could just not allow rapes to ever occur as part of his will and we would have no need to learn that lesson. It is like setting someone up to do something they cannot resist in hopes of punishing them for doing it when it would have been easier to just not set the trap and have them never do it to begin with.

reply to post by Sinnthia

Hi,

I do understand your perspective. And I understand it's very difficult to perceive past it and the idea of God being Omnipotent in only one respect... "Good"

What we fail to take into account is the Total Omnipotence of this thing we called "God", we fail to see that without "It" nothing could happen....even all those things we Believe are "Evil". Instead we place our Human Beliefs, our Human Concepts and even Our Human Behaviours onto "God".. AND, then Expect "It" to do what we think it should.

And therein lay the biggest problem of all to Perceiving outside our limited and Indoctrinated Perception Level.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I will not say you are crazy but let me restated what I just posted so that you may understand it. The idea that some god would cause or allow a woman to be raped so that people can learn and grow just makes me weep for the people that would humble themselves to such a weak and ill equipped god. If an all powerful being, force, or whatever you want to call it cannot get simple humans to learn or grow without introducing suffering upon certain individuals then how can that god be either omnipotent or oniscient?

Basically what is being put forth is this concept that God's will includes rape so that people on the OUTSIDE can see how bad rape is and learn from that? Well it seems that same god could just not allow rapes to ever occur as part of his will and we would have no need to learn that lesson. It is like setting someone up to do something they cannot resist in hopes of punishing them for doing it when it would have been easier to just not set the trap and have them never do it to begin with.

My friend, God is the creator, it is all good and all present. Being all good, everything it created in this existence is good. Being all present, it is within everything in this creation politicians, murderers, rapists, trees plants, everything. Mankind was gifted with free will because God is all good. What mankind does with that free will is based on what he has experienced from others since he was born. Every new born child is a loving good being of God. If they then learn through torment and pain, that that is what life is about, that is what they are going to use their free will to do.

God does not choose between us. God cannot choose between us. God is within us all. The only way to end the hate filled world we have created is to be strong enough to love those who harm us so that we teach them a better way. If we shame them, shun them, or torment them further, we just reinforce the behavior they have already come to know. Hate cannot defeat hate. Only Love can defeat hate.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Tayesin
And therein lay the biggest problem of all to Perceiving outside our limited and Indoctrinated Perception Level.

If that helps you dismiss the real fact that a real person is really raped then I guess I can only hope your part in that plan finishes up on a better note than at least that of a rape victim. Unfortunately, if not, you have made the case that I should shed no tears in sympathy and feel no pain in empathy for you have relegated it to an event that should instead be admired for its part in the greater good. My belief in imaginary friends is just not as strong but my belief that both women and rape exist is pretty solid. Sorry, it looks like a really happy boat but I cannot get onboard.

reply to post by IAMIAM


The Family of Light who you call God, Father/Mother and the Family, loves everyone unconditionally. This is true. But does not endorse all behaviors equally. Only Love passes the tests here, though forgiveness and making U-Turns is always possible, and you are right in the way we need to view others, and not be retaliatory, but to not allow that others do to harden us, or create the urge to get even, but to maintain our love and compassion. Though that being said, many times this is quite a while after the events take place, for healing can take some time, and this a very traumatic experience.

reply to post by Sinnthia


It should ruffle your feathers and possibly make you give him swift kick in the you know where. I wouldn't debate that fact. However if you were a deeply religious person and sought the help of a Chaplain or other minister I would expect that this would help ease the suffering.

I see it a as a universal and natural truth that life is more complicated than suffering and joy and happen to agree with that in the great scheme it is the case that all things are for a reason. That said I wouldn't in a million years tell a rape victim it was the will of God and thus the suffering is not for naught. My advice would be more along the lines of press charges and achieve closure. Don't let it destroy your life because that lets the -Expletive- win ya know practical advice...

Keep in mind I'm no Christian and am just trying to see his point of view. I don't like to see persecution without new perspectives.

reply to post by Tayesin


Absolutely brilliant! All of it.

I'm afraid it will be lost on most because what you're talking about is the next level. Most here aren't interested in that level (By here I mean earth) and aren't at the place where they care to live it even though many do understand. Please take note I'm not saying thats better or worse, its just different.

I would be interested in further discussion but I'm afraid this isn't really the thread for it!

Originally posted by IAMIAM
My friend, God is the creator, it is all good and all present.

"My friend" - remember that. Remember that brotherly love. I have responded to this post twice already and deleted it. This is a tough topic for a female with no imaginary friends to tackle without letting emotion bubble up. Please keep that in mind when you notice my hostility. It is not personal. I am actually interested in the turn this conversation has taken but maybe not great at engaging as politely as I would like.

Being all good, everything it created in this existence is good. Being all present, it is within everything in this creation politicians, murderers, rapists, trees plants, everything.

So your god creates politicians, murders, and rapists? That must be because of his mater plan I suppose? I thought your god created life and whether or not it ran for office was up to them. Was that wrong?

Mankind was gifted with free will because God is all good. What mankind does with that free will is based on what he has experienced from others since he was born.

Wait a minute. You just said that your god actually creates rapists. How can a rapist have free will if that is what he was created to be?

Every new born child is a loving good being of God. If they then learn through torment and pain, that that is what life is about, that is what they are going to use their free will to do.

I am not really so sure that I believe that. Do you know how Jeffrey Dahmer was raised? He had a better upbringing that Oprah Winfrey. While I would not dare say that mitigating factors outside the womb do not influence such sociopathy, I think it is just as arguable that some people are born damaged goods.

Besides, you are unravelling the your own point. If her rape was part of God's master plan and God creates rapists because he has this plan, then when does that free will everyone, including created rapists and politicians, come in?

It cannot be both.

God does not choose between us. God cannot choose between us. God is within us all. The only way to end the hate filled world we have created is to be strong enough to love those who harm us so that we teach them a better way. If we shame them, shun them, or torment them further, we just reinforce the behavior they have already come to know. Hate cannot defeat hate. Only Love can defeat hate.

That really sounds very nice and all but I find it hard to tell myself that I could ever look a rape victim in the eye and hope to present her solace by relating that her rapist is going to get hugged until he no longer wants to rape people. I would in fact strongly deter you from ever attempting such a feat within reach of a rape victim yourself. Then again, maybe as part of god's plan, her violent reaction will lead to a medical castration that would then lead to a more sympathetic view of thoes of us sans penis. Your god does work in mysterious ways and it does seem that you could use some female perspective on rape. Do you hope your god has a master plan for you or do you hope you have free will that will keep you out of the reach of an angry rape victim?

With Love,

Your Brother

Totally feeling it! I understand and do appreciate what I percieve to be the intentions behind these types of posts. It just does not sit well with me. Must be my vagina.

"Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'"

or

Why I am not a Christian.

Originally posted by Jinglelord
It should ruffle your feathers and possibly make you give him swift kick in the you know where. I wouldn't debate that fact. However if you were a deeply religious person and sought the help of a Chaplain or other minister I would expect that this would help ease the suffering.

The reason I am taking part in this conversation is exactly that right there. I am trying to understand so I am putting myself in the shoes of a deeply religious rape victim. I might need to put myself in the shoes of an intellectually stunted religious rape victim though in order to not have a few rational thoughts sneak in.

Please tell me if I am getting it wrong. Should I be reading from the view of a deeply religous rape victim or someone who takes what they are told by men of the cloth without question?

I see it a as a universal and natural truth that life is more complicated than suffering and joy and happen to agree with that in the great scheme it is the case that all things are for a reason. That said I wouldn't in a million years tell a rape victim it was the will of God and thus the suffering is not for naught. My advice would be more along the lines of press charges and achieve closure. Don't let it destroy your life because that lets the -Expletive- win ya know practical advice...

Keep in mind I'm no Christian and am just trying to see his point of view. I don't like to see persecution without new perspectives.

Then you should be able to understand exactly where I am coming from. No matter how religious you are, that does not need to mean you are also stupid and in this case I am just assuming this woman is not stupid. So if the Chaplin were to tell me all the things you said my reaction would be the same, religious or not.

to the chaplin - "Are you trying to tell me that this god is so powerful and knows everything so he has a greater plan that I should find some safety in all while telling me that this god could not figure out a better way to make whatever point this makes without having me raped? I vote no confidence and want a god that can use bunny rabbits kissing to teach lessons. Being all powerful, that should be easy."

See, no matter how hard I try to pretend I believe in god and hear those words. I cannot reconcile omnipotent with what boils down to really crappy planning.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
"My friend" - remember that. Remember that brotherly love. I have responded to this post twice already and deleted it. This is a tough topic for a female with no imaginary friends to tackle without letting emotion bubble up. Please keep that in mind when you notice my hostility. It is not personal. I am actually interested in the turn this conversation has taken but maybe not great at engaging as politely as I would like.

I take no offence to anything. I know the sting this topic has.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Being all good, everything it created in this existence is good. Being all present, it is within everything in this creation politicians, murderers, rapists, trees plants, everything.

So your god creates politicians, murders, and rapists? That must be because of his mater plan I suppose? I thought your god created life and whether or not it ran for office was up to them. Was that wrong?

God did not create politicians. God creates Man. Man creates these other labels.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Mankind was gifted with free will because God is all good. What mankind does with that free will is based on what he has experienced from others since he was born.

Wait a minute. You just said that your god actually creates rapists. How can a rapist have free will if that is what he was created to be?

God did not create a rapist. God created Man. Man created a rapist through what ever trauma the rapist endured before becoming a rapist.

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Every new born child is a loving good being of God. If they then learn through torment and pain, that that is what life is about, that is what they are going to use their free will to do.

I am not really so sure that I believe that. Do you know how Jeffrey Dahmer was raised? He had a better upbringing that Oprah Winfrey. While I would not dare say that mitigating factors outside the womb do not influence such sociopathy, I think it is just as arguable that some people are born damaged goods.

Yes, some are born with chemical imbalances and defects in the brain. We can detect these issues now and treat them before they become harmful to themselves and others.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Besides, you are unravelling the your own point. If her rape was part of God's master plan and God creates rapists because he has this plan, then when does that free will everyone, including created rapists and politicians, come in?

It cannot be both.

God's master plan is for Mankind to learn to love one another. It is that simple. The hell we have created here is our own doing. We have created the systems which corrupt us. We created a dog eat dog world and then are surprised that some act like junk yard dogs. It is what WE have created with what God has given us.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
That really sounds very nice and all but I find it hard to tell myself that I could ever look a rape victim in the eye and hope to present her solace by relating that her rapist is going to get hugged until he no longer wants to rape people. I would in fact strongly deter you from ever attempting such a feat within reach of a rape victim yourself. Then again, maybe as part of god's plan, her violent reaction will lead to a medical castration that would then lead to a more sympathetic view of thoes of us sans penis. Your god does work in mysterious ways and it does seem that you could use some female perspective on rape. Do you hope your god has a master plan for you or do you hope you have free will that will keep you out of the reach of an angry rape victim?

When I was three years old, I had a young teenage babysitter that took great pleasure in making me drink her urine as punishment. When I put up a fuss, she would beat me with shoes, yardsticks, what ever she had handy. At the age of 7 I had a new teenage babysitter who delighted in watching her 22 year old mentally retarded sister beat the snot out of me on her command. Sometimes she would have her sit on my face naked because it was funny. At 11 years old I had a lovely couple babysit me. This husband and wife team enjoyed showing me pornos and trying to get me to perform for them. Fortunately, my will was strong enough through it all that I shrugged it all off as normal human behavior. Later I found out that all had been raped themselves as kids. It was a common thing back then for father to rape their daughters. Most of them were returning war vets and were scrambled in the brains anyway. I know my Grand Father was and he raped everyone of his three daughters. So, I know a little about from both a victims stand point and the Son of a victim. I know it hurts. I know it isn't right. I also know it is a symptom of a much deeper problem.

It is a symptom of the world we have created.

I have forgiven everyone who has ever harmed me because I saw through my mother what happens when you do not. It eats you alive for the rest of your life. Me, I am healed.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Totally feeling it! I understand and do appreciate what I percieve to be the intentions behind these types of posts. It just does not sit well with me. Must be my vagina.

I would not say it if I did not mean it. I do not enjoy witnessing the cruelties we do to one another every day. It tears my heart out because I know we can do so much better. The healing must start some where. Forgiveness must start somewhere. I have a daughter and one day she will have children of her own. If we do not turn this world around, what kind of world will my grand kids inherit?

I hope it is one of love, and not one of torment. We must start somewhere.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by Sinnthia
If that helps you dismiss the real fact that a real person is really raped then I guess I can only hope your part in that plan finishes up on a better note than at least that of a rape victim. Unfortunately, if not, you have made the case that I should shed no tears in sympathy and feel no pain in empathy for you have relegated it to an event that should instead be admired for its part in the greater good. My belief in imaginary friends is just not as strong but my belief that both women and rape exist is pretty solid. Sorry, it looks like a really happy boat but I cannot get onboard.

Never would I dismiss such a thing. Nor do I condone such a thing. I am merely presenting a bigger picture perception for those who may be ready to See.

My perception is that we have all been Rapist and Raped in our lifetimes on this world... hence Empathy comes naturally. At no time have I said anything to belittle the Experience of this Lady.

I hope you may see this too.

It should be pointed out that the actual lawsuit said a military chaplain told her it was 'Gods Will'. Nowhere, did it say it was a Christian chaplain. We really don't know what denomination of Christianity or religion the chaplain represented. The chaplain might not be Christian at all or indeed from any traditional dogmatic religion. It is a bad assumption he was Christian-we simply don't know from the information given to us.

It is interesting however to see some people blame Christianity for his statements and/or some dogmatic religion. That seems to reveal a certain amount of prejudice in some replies. People are quick to blame the chaplain for what he said but have no problem with their own glaring error.