What Does "Salvation" Really Mean?

Some say salvation comes only through "believing on The Lord Jesus Christ".
But what does this mean exactly?
Here is my interpretation:

I believe in Christ insofar as I believe He has access to the total sum of knowledge that has existed, exists and will exist, and that we should trust Him, i.e. believe what He says to be the truth. This is what I believe to be the essence of "having faith in Christ". He knows what we do not, and knows the eventuality of every possible outcome. He has been commissioned to use this knowledge to "save" us from the trap that is this existence. "Us" being those who believe that he knows what's coming. And that "salvation" results from our placing our trust in Him to look out for our best interests.

I have formed an analogy which helps to explain my thoughts on this:

Imagine a number of people in a burning building. These people don't know that the building is on fire, and will never know that the building is on fire or that they are indeed in any danger whatsoever. The reason for this is that they are "blind to the truth". What causes them to be blind to the truth? The very fact that they exist within the building. You may have heard something along the lines of "any observer within a system can not fully describe the system in which they exist while still within the system. Only by being removed from the system can that observer see and comprehend the totality of the system." Back to the burning building: Christ is outside of the system (has complete knowledge and comprehension of the system), and knows we are in grave danger. He comes to the rescue as a fireman would. But there is a problem. Many of the people within the burning building will never accept that the building is on fire or that they are in any danger. This is where faith comes in. We must trust that the rescuer who is outside of the system has knowledge we do not, has our best interests in mind and will indeed save us. The only thing we must do is to heed his call, and to "open the door" when he knocks. He will then remove us from the burning building. This is why salvation comes to some, and not all. Some people will never believe they are in danger. They will never believe that someone has been commissioned to rescue them. They will not open the door.

And, as was the case in the film "28 Days Later", those who would slow the rescuer down will be left "in a heartbeat". He will save those whom he knows to be responsive, and leave those whom he knows will never respond to the warning. They had their chance, and his mission will not be slowed down or compromised by those who do not believe there is any danger, and who refuse salvation.

Is that convoluted enough for you?

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

I rather like this analogy.
"From the wrath to come" is the way Paul puts it.
"Trust" is the essence.

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

Christ is outside of the system (has complete knowledge and comprehension of the system), and knows we are in grave danger. He comes to the rescue as a fireman would. But there is a problem. Many of the people within the burning building will never accept that the building is on fire or that they are in any danger. This is where faith comes in. We must trust that the rescuer who is outside of the system has knowledge we do not, has our best interests in mind and will indeed save us. The only thing we must do is to heed his call, and to "open the door" when he knocks. He will then remove us from the burning building. This is why salvation comes to some, and not all. Some people will never believe they are in danger. They will never believe that someone has been commissioned to rescue them. They will not open the door.

Whoah. Jesus has the knowledge, and the power to save the people in the building, who are ignorant, and yet he's playing these games?

Maybe just not the best picture here, at least for me. So anyway, Jesus is going to rescue "some" of the people, but not all, because they don't "trust", or worse, they don't even believe they're in danger, or even know anyone is trying to save them? The ignorant ones get to burn?

"Fire" that dude from the fire department! (And somebody tell him that the experienced firemen use their axe to get through those doors, when those inside can't open it for him! Sheesh.)

Don't take this the wrong way, but try again maybe?

JR

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

 

I rather like this analogy.
"From the wrath to come" is the way Paul puts it.
"Trust" is the essence.

I think it sums it up rather nicely.
"Let go Neo... Free your mind"

The "Great Work" was done whether we believe it or not, since he forgave even those who put him on the cross, who did NOT accept him or believe in hm, but, the great gift of incalculable value (eternal life) cannot be fully utilized or accessed unless recieved, and opened, and that gift is our true self as child of God who, although once lost is now found again, although once dead to God, is alive again!

Because you see, the gift of love must be freely given and freely recieved, it cannot be coercise, or made under threat.

And for those who don't respond, they are bound under Karmic law, and presumably could very well end up still "in the building" at the time of wrath.. so it's a bit of a paradox I guess.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

 

Christ is outside of the system (has complete knowledge and comprehension of the system), and knows we are in grave danger. He comes to the rescue as a fireman would. But there is a problem. Many of the people within the burning building will never accept that the building is on fire or that they are in any danger. This is where faith comes in. We must trust that the rescuer who is outside of the system has knowledge we do not, has our best interests in mind and will indeed save us. The only thing we must do is to heed his call, and to "open the door" when he knocks. He will then remove us from the burning building. This is why salvation comes to some, and not all. Some people will never believe they are in danger. They will never believe that someone has been commissioned to rescue them. They will not open the door.

Whoah. Jesus has the knowledge, and the power to save the people in the building, who are ignorant, and yet he's playing these games?

Maybe just not the best picture here, at least for me. So anyway, Jesus is going to rescue "some" of the people, but not all, because they don't "trust", or worse, they don't even believe they're in danger, or even know anyone is trying to save them? The ignorant ones get to burn?

"Fire" that dude from the fire department! (And somebody tell him that the experienced firemen use their axe to get through those doors, when those inside can't open it for him! Sheesh.)

Don't take this the wrong way, but try again maybe?

JR

And, as was the case in the film "28 Days Later", those who would slow the rescuer down will be left "in a heartbeat". He will save those whom he knows to be responsive, and leave those whom he knows will never respond to the warning. They had their chance, and his mission will not be slowed down or compromised by those who do not believe there is any danger, and who refuse salvation.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
This is where faith comes in. We must trust that the rescuer who is outside of the system has knowledge we do not, has our best interests in mind and will indeed save us. The only thing we must do is to heed his call, and to "open the door" when he knocks. He will then remove us from the burning building. This is why salvation comes to some, and not all. Some people will never believe they are in danger. They will never believe that someone has been commissioned to rescue them. They will not open the door.

The following is rebutted respectfully and is relevant to your analogy.

Consider or at the very least momentarily entertain that the Bible and much of Christs teachings were written by man to serve man, as a means of indoctrinating the masses into passivity, submission, a forgoing of reason ( aka faith) and spiritual apathy.

Turning the other cheek and resigning our efforts to the intervention of an externalized entity happens to be exactly how an elite ruling class would prefer us to universally behave.

Applying this to your analogy, our awareness, subsequent faith and subsequent expectations of the fireman, I ask you the following question:

Who's more likely to survive? The person who opens the door to find the fireman is not there for he never existed or the person who in lieu of faith in the fireman, better spent their time finding an actual and viable escape plan from the inferno?

Your analogy only works if the fireman exists and thusly only applies to those of your faith. I would have thought that Christ's message and love was a little more inclusive than that. It's a failed analogy that neither serves Christ nor your faith.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


As the perfect gentleman, made of love, he's not about to axe in your door and invade you. It's an issue of integrity which cannot and will not violate personal integrity. Jesus "hugs" and envelopes, and comingles as the spirit of life and love, he's not an axe man.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


Furthermore, we are creatures of free-will. Ergo:

reply to post by rexusdiablos

We cannot engineer our own salvation and work out way out, and, from a wholly subjective prison, there is no escape into the absolute objective truth and reality unless we are recieved. Jesus example and work represents perfect awareness relative to our ignorance, and perfect mental health, relative to our character defects and sickness. How can people read his words and not recognize the character there I can't understand. Yes it was misused by the PTB of the "church", but that's not the thing itself, but an attempted hijacking for selfish gain and temporal power, nothing more. When will we understand..?

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are


Salvation means to be saved from something, to avoid a consequence. We are saved from hell. Hell is referred to as the abyss. We are saved from an eternity of being alone, eternal solitary confinement. What then is the unforgivable sin? How bout the wish to be our own God.

The anger people have about God is always the same, it is anger over having to work together, it is selfishness. We want rules for everyone except ourselves. What does Satan accuse of night and day? I believe he accuses us of being self absorbed and selfish. He said Job only loved God because he had all the good stuff of the world; but, Job still loved God when he lost it all.

We give Satan too much credit. If you read closely you discover he is nothing more than a spoiled child who is jealous of his younger sibling. He is not that bright. How bright can he be that he offered Jesus to rule on earth? He didn't recognize Jesus when he met him, he did not know who he was.

The consequence described in the bible for rejecting God is that he separates us from himself, it is our choice. God is not about having a nice life on earth, it is about growing into caring and forgiving individuals BECAUSE we understand pain and love. Pain is easy to understand, love is tough. Love means taking responsibility for our actions and giving of ourselves so others are not in pain. The world attempts to avoid pain and maximize pleasure, when this doesn't happen the children throw a hissy fit. At least that is my thinking on the matter.

Originally posted by rexusdiablos

Applying this to your analogy, our awareness, subsequent faith and subsequent expectations of the fireman, I ask you the following question:

Who's more likely to survive? The person who opens the door to find the fireman is not there for he never existed or the person who in lieu of faith in the fireman, better spent their time finding an actual and viable escape plan from the inferno?

Your analogy only works if the fireman exists and thusly only applies to those of your faith. I would have thought that Christ's message and love was a little more inclusive than that. It's a failed analogy that neither serves Christ nor your faith.

edit on 28/1/2011 by rexusdiablos because: (no reason given)

Then my analogy indeed works for the fireman exists. Free-will exists as well. And our blindness to the true nature of the system prevents us from knowing there is an inferno raging around us, ready to devour us. Salvation can only come from outside the system. And we have the choice: to respond or to not respond.

"The problem is choice"
- Neo to The Architect,
"The Matrix Reloaded"

Just to be redundant:

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependant on the system, that they will fight to protect it... If you are not one of us, you are one of them."
dc-mrg.english.ucsb.edu...

Salvation is deliverance from the power of Sin. Sin is a transgression against the divine Law. Moses brought the Ten Commandments which are an elaboration of the Divine Law, and Christ gave two Great Commandments which are the Divine Law as a whole, Love God and your Neighbor. The Divine Law, Love.

Now that the definitions are out of the way lets discuss how Christ provided salvation. Christ taught explicitly what it means to love God and to love your neighbor. He issued over 100 commandments which were expoundings on the divine law of Love. His greatest lesson was refusing to violently rebel against those who put him to death for absolutely no crime. He went to the cross innocent. He was murdered because he taught the divine law and his teachings were dangerous to the Empire of government and religion who wanted to control mankind. His death was his final and greatest teaching on salvation. Forgiveness! He forgave those who were murdering him and asked the Father to forgive them as well. That IS Love!

Salvation is not a process of eliminating Sin once and for all. It is a never ending process. Christ did not wipe away the sins of Man with his death, he demonstrated how to do it by loving and forgiving. Christ's death was in vain if Mankind refuses to wake up and follow in his foot steps. Many martyrs have come and gone since Christ walked the earth and still mankind refuses to acknowledge each other as the Brotherhood of Man. We remain divided, we live for our selves, and we have lost sense of a higher purpose having been blinded with our own magnificence and the wonders we create.

The prophecies of old are warnings of what will come if mankind does not obey the Divine Law and love one another. God made it, Moses engraved it, Jesus Lived and Died for it, and it is up to Man to fulfill it.

There will be a second coming of Christ. It will be when the spirit of his death, the purpose, is realised and Mankind learns to care for one another. It will either be after great turmoil and distress as the prophets of old have seen, or it will be by a universal realisation that only together can we make this world a better place, the heaven we all desire, for all time.

Salvation is having the love within to forgive, and to never harm one another again.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
The "Great Work" was done whether we believe it or not, since he forgave even those who put him on the cross, who did NOT accept him or believe in hm, but, the great gift of incalculable value (eternal life) cannot be fully utilized or accessed unless recieved, and opened, and that gift is our true self as child of God who, although once lost is now found again, although once dead to God, is alive again!

Because you see, the gift of love must be freely given and freely recieved, it cannot be coercise, or made under threat.

And for those who don't respond, they are bound under Karmic law, and presumably could very well end up still "in the building" at the time of wrath.. so it's a bit of a paradox I guess.

edit on 28-1-2011 by NewAgeMan because: edit

It can not be forced upon anyone. We have free-will. That means we may freely choose to remain in the burning building, free to go about our lives... oblivious. And we are also free to choose to receive the alternative. But it will not be forced upon us.

reply to post by IAMIAM



It is not through works that we are saved, but only by the grace of God. The only requirement is that we freely accept the gift.

reply to post by this_is_who_we_are

It's about soveriegnty.

Adam was given soveriegnty over the earth but lost it to the serpent...
...who in one guise or another is called "the prince of this world" (John 12:31)...
...but the divine Lord became human as Jesus and as a human took the soveriegnty back...
...by overcoming death...
...and humans who believe Jesus is the Christ have regained the soveriegnty over the earth through His actions.

Jesus said it like this, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31

So Jesus dying and rising took back the soveriegnty of this world...
...because in death He moved beyond the serpents soveriegn control...
...and then rose from the dead beyond it.

Jesus also said, "...the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." John 16:7-11

The Spirit reproves the world of 'judgment' because that prince is judged...
...and soveriegnty has been regained.

This is really what it means to be 'saved'...
...religions tend to focus on individual salvation and personal piety...
...but the Lord who became Jesus and Christ won back the soveriegnty that Adam had lost...
...and anyone who aligns with Jesus by faith is included in this recovery.

John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Soveriegnty has been regained...
...and all who believe His achievement are saved.

The demons in alien clothing we are seeing in the UFO and abduction phenomena...
...are the 'seed of the serpent' who although defeated...
...is attempting to deceive the world into thinking he is their creator and has soveriegnty over us...
...this 'alien hypothesis' will become more evident as 'disclosure' approaches.

The 'take-home' is this...these interdimensional beings represented by the serpent...
...who stole our soveriegnty in pre-history...
...have lost that soveriegnty by the appearance of Jesus who has saved the world...
...but have been left to reveal themselves one more time so that their true character can be seen...
...so they are attempting to decieve the world one more time before they are finally destroyed.

Jesus is now soveriegn and all who believe this are saved.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Dear IamIam,

I can't remember the quote I am looking for. In the Old Testament there is a description of Israel, how it's women dress like whores and everyone is only concerned about their own urges. If you can find it, I would love to see it, it is a perfect description of our current times. It also says that the children do not listen to the parents.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

It is not through works that we are saved, but only by the grace of God. The only requirement is that we freely accept the gift.

Love is much more than work my friend. Like God, it cannot be defined, only felt.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
Then my analogy indeed works for the fireman exists.

That's what I just stated but as further stated, only to those of your faith. Surely you're capable of looking beyond your own belief system to enhance your proliferation of your savior's message. The non-believers mattered to Christ, do they matter not to you?

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
Free-will exists as well.

What about it?

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
And our blindness to the true nature of the system prevents us from knowing there is an inferno raging around us, ready to devour us. Salvation can only come from outside the system. And we have the choice: to respond or to not respond.

Why's that? It's perfectly feasible that a person can escape a blazing inferno with a little ingenuity and opportunity. Are you trying to say that in all our anthropological history, a single human has never escaped an inferno without the help of a fireman "from outside"?

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
"The problem is choice"
- Neo to The Architect,
"The Matrix Reloaded"

Incorrect. The problem is the choice, not choice itself. Do you understand the difference?