Middle School Student Behavior

Originally posted by sara123123
reply to post by Uberlime

 

The schools were designed for the early industrialied era and have not changed much since. They are slow and boring and provide meaningless hoop jumping year in and year out. We need a whole different idea where we don't herd kids together to waste most of their time each day.

Schools in most countries are the same. You've got a big building with classrooms, filled with students and a teacher who lectures. I've been to school in three different countries, so I've experienced it for myself. Why is it that other countries can excel in education using similar tools, yet here in America it doesn't seem to work? What's the difference? They get less funding, yet their kids turn out more educated. Could it be that education is taken a lot more seriously by other countries than it is here? As I've said in my other posts, parents do their job over there, they stress the importance of education one way or another until the child does what it is supposed to do.

They kids are dysfunctional. The teachers are dysfunctional. And the administration is dysfunctional. Parents often try not to look at the mess or they get angry.

You got that right! Parents get angry, yet they don't seem to do enough work at home to prepare their kids for succeeding in school. The teachers can't discipline their kids, so what are the teachers supposed to do? Parents need to do their share of work.

If the work was focused and consolidated, most kids could finish their school day in a couple of hours. The rest of the time is busy work and nonsense. There is no reason why everything from assignment to lectures and instructions can be put on the internet and accessed by the kids on their own. You should be able to interact with the teacher on appointment or in e-mail or chat.

What??? Leave it up to the kids to get online and do their homework or teach themselves through online courses??? LOL! Yeah right. Unless you stand over their shoulder 8 hours a day, you can be sure they'll spend their time texting or goofing off on the web, playing online games. Good lord, if it ever comes to this, America will surely become the dumbest country on the planet.... especially since not everyone has internet access.

But then when you talk about reforming the system to make sense and really teach kids and stop warping kids, you will find out the truth. The main purpose of public schools is to serve as baby sitting factories and social/political engineers.

If parents don't start disciplining their brats, or if teachers don't get the power to discipline misbehaving students, there's going to be no change. Schools will continue to be babysitting factories.

Originally posted by sara123123
There is no reason why everything from assignment to lectures and instructions can be put on the internet and accessed by the kids on their own. You should be able to interact with the teacher on appointment or in e-mail or chat.

Don't you think this would be an even greater detriment to the development of necessary social skills, in addition to that caused by on-line 'social networking", text based interaction and video games?

Originally posted by sara123123
reply to post by Uberlime

 

The schools were designed for the early industrialied era and have not changed much since. They are slow and boring and provide meaningless hoop jumping year in and year out. We need a whole different idea where we don't herd kids together to waste most of their time each day. They kids are dysfunctional. The teachers are dysfunctional. And the administration is dysfunctional. Parents often try not to look at the mess or they get angry.

If the work was focused and consolidated, most kids could finish their school day in a couple of hours. The rest of the time is busy work and nonsense. There is no reason why everything from assignment to lectures and instructions can be put on the internet and accessed by the kids on their own. You should be able to interact with the teacher on appointment or in e-mail or chat.

But then when you talk about reforming the system to make sense and really teach kids and stop warping kids, you will find out the truth. The main purpose of public schools is to serve as baby sitting factories and social/political engineers.

Something in what you say here speaks to me. I agree, there's a whole lotta dysfunction, and it doesn't just center on unruly children and adolescents. In fact, I was just reading a book I have written by John Holt.

Here is a link for it:
www.amazon.com...

The copy I have LOOKS like it was published in 1964.

In any case, I was reading and he started discussing test scores and how some schools get caught on fixating on them and how he thinks this is the wrong direction. His argument is that teachers and students cram for the tests but no real learning or retaining occurs because teachers are essentially showing the students what will be on the test and what to expect. He says this is like giving them the answers and that all that results is that when they answer a question a bunch of lights and flashes and gears whur and pop ... out comes the answer.

He goes on to say that he thinks students have a learned helplessness in school that stems from fear and resistance to what they perceive as a prison. He compares a man who grew up in concentration camps to students in school only lightly, but enough so that it becomes part of his argument. He says the students start out pretending to be stupid, if only to resist their 'handlers', but by the time they're in sixth grade or thereabout they actually believe they're stupid and forget how to reach for knowledge like they did when they were toddlers.

When I read that a light went off in my head. When I was taking my physics course in 2005 I remember struggling to do the work in-class. I've never been good with people, you see. It has always been this way. But what became abundantly clear is that I function so much better on my own. I went home and did one of the problems in 2-3 hours. I learned more in that span of time than I did in several in-class sessions. The point for me saying this is that not every student is the same.

I agree with him that students act stupid or unable sometimes, and that they soon believe it. But I think stupidness happens for different reasons. I acted stupid in PE because I didn't want any attention on me. I was afraid of doing good. Sad thing is I got teased anyway. I think, in general, students act stupid to fit in and not to stick out. But more than that, sometimes we 'act' stupid because we're not socially as able as others are and when put in a social setting our performance falls. We fail for a lot of reasons, and we're stupid for as many. I wish there were easy answers.

Bottom line, we should focus more on what makes students fail than we should on whether they're getting spanked enough. And a lot of it's psychological. Asking a parent about the mind of their child is like asking a teacher about their student. I think parents and teachers are equally blind and stupid about who or what jack or jill truly is. And why do I say this? Because growing kids keep a lot of thigns to themselves and youth is a very psychological and troubling time. It all goes over their heads. It's not as simple as spanking them to get things in order.

And I'd like to repeat: I was spanked a lot growing up and my dad pulled my pants down. It terrified me. I acted well behaved in school. Yet, I am nothing more than a complete failure in life. I live with my parents. I am the horror story. And I am just laughing to myself at all these people who say discipline and spanking are the answers. You have no idea how complicated all this is do you and even though I think discipline is a part of the answer, it's not the only one!

reply to post by aero56

I have to agree with those that put the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the parents.

I am the oldest of 10 children. I have 4 nieces and 17 nephews, They range from the age of 3 to 21 and I have never had a problem with habitual bad behavior or disrespect in my presence.

My siblings often ask me why their children listen to me quicker then they do to them when I rarely raise my voice and often do not have to do anything more then call their name and look them. The younger ones often break into tears when I punish them with "The Look". My siblings unfortunately, sometimes comfort them by saying that they understand why they are so upset because they remember getting "The Look" when they were growing up with me. I was the oldest so I was supposed to be the responsible one and I got punished for trouble that my siblings got into if I was anywhere near them at the time.

I tell them that their children listen to me when they don't listen to them because I have 4 rules that I never break.

1. Nip it in the bud.
Stop the behavior before it can take hold. If it is inappropriate at 16 then it is inappropriate at 2. Bad behavior is never "cute". Bad behavior is never over looked and there is always a consequence associated with bad behavior.

2. I never repeat a command. Even though I may on occasion ask the offender the question that usually brings all unacceptable behavior to an abrupt end. That question is "How many times does Auntie tell you to do something?" The answer of course is once and the behavior stops.

3. All punishments are carried out until the end. If it is for three days and the time of the punishment was 9am on Jan 1st then it does not end until 9am on Jan 4th. Every time a request is made for the discipline to be cut short another 15 minutes is added to the end time.

4. If I say it, it is written in stone. I never make promises that I don't keep. If life throws a monkey wrench into the works the situation is immediately addressed and we negotiate a compromise.

Of course I have been following these rules from day one of their lives, but I have had the same results from children that come to my house with their parents for a visit and with the children in my neighborhood.

It was so funny to watch the kids walking down the street being rowdy and seeking attention until they got to my house. They would walk by so quietly. If I was on the porch they would call Hi Auntie; all the children call me Auntie, and the moment they passed my house they would go right back to acting foolishly.

Children have to be taught how to behave but more importantly they have to be taught that there are consequences for their behavior and that they and only they are responsible for how they act and what they do. It is never acceptable that their bad behavior is the result or the response to someone else's bad behavior because there are always choices. If they choose to respond inappropriately then they have to accept the consequences and the right way is almost always the hardest.

More parents need to take the hard way and be responsible for the behavior of their children.

I think it's past time to kill a few Sacred Cows with the truth which is always uncomfortable when heard by "People of the Lie."

Whew. Reading through this thread is brutal and seldom can so much dysfunction and outright ignorance be found in a single place. This is a Elephant Graveyard for psychologists and anthropologists and clearly proves that the people closest to the situation (and creating the problems: the students, teachers and parents) have neither the insight nor the intellect to even frame the questions... let alone answer them.

As for the students: I appreciate your point of view but be assured that the opinions of children that have just come through Public School in America have NO value whatsoever... except perhaps as amusement. But very few of us are amused by you. Sightings of your shortcomings have preceded you for several generations now.

As for the teachers: In fields that successfully produce things of value there's a saying, "it's a poor mechanic that blames his tools." And another, "people who can do, DO. People who CAN'T DO, teach." I invite everyone to reread these self-professed "teachers" comments and ask yourself if the quality of writing, and the quality of expressed thinking, reaches the level one would expect from University graduates?

Thus, it should be obvious that "teachers" that have never been anywhere, and never done anything... essentially have nothing to teach and little surprise that the students come out of the process as uneducated as them. Schools in America do not educate, they socialize, so why blame the kids for the resulting ignorance? They never had a chance... and never will. It's too late for them, and for their parents as well.

Why would anyone expect that teachers who are "losers" themselves would produce "winners?" And why would anyone be surprised when the schools build losers? Especially when previous generations produced enough winners to make (and keep) America great. People that know nothing can teach nothing and that fact is part of what happened.

Many participants in this thread are literally breaking their arms pointing fingers everywhere but at themselves, but for those of us that are/were actually educated there's no need to read about the 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' because we see right now before our eyes. And the reason for America's decline is clear, it's the people.

Some years ago I returned to Grad School and taught at the college level. I was shocked at the levels of ignorance demonstrated by my students and now those idiots have college degrees and children even stupider than themselves. Clearly the handwriting was on the wall 20 years ago and the rush to the lowest common denominator was clear.

Has anybody noticed the decline in IQ's in America in the past 40 years? Does anyone really think that fat stupid ugly crazy parents will produce anything other than the same in their children? In a country where 50% of people believe that war and torture is OK why would children learn human values like honor and integrity? Or anything else for that matter? Or respect anything, including themselves.

I could write a dissertation on this kettle of fish but it stinks to High Heaven and frankly I don't care because nothing will change, it's gone too far; but anyone who has studied history knows why this has happened and also knows how other societies approached an all too obvious problem. But the Monkeys aren't interested and I don't want to be abused by them so I can't say more.

Originally posted by Brown Bear
I think it's past time to kill a few Sacred Cows with the truth which is always uncomfortable when heard by "People of the Lie."

Whew. Reading through this thread is brutal and seldom can so much dysfunction and outright ignorance be found in a single place. This is a Elephant Graveyard for psychologists and anthropologists and clearly proves that the people closest to the situation (and creating the problems: the students, teachers and parents) have neither the insight nor the intellect to even frame the questions... let alone answer them.

As for the students: I appreciate your point of view but be assured that the opinions children that have just come through Public School in America have NO value whatsoever... except perhaps as amusement. But very few of us are amused by you. Sightings of your shortcomings have preceded you for several generations now.

As for the teachers: In the fields that successfully produce things of value there's a saying, "it's a poor mechanic that blames his tools." And another, "people who can do, DO. People who CAN'T DO, teach." I invite everyone to reread these self-professed "teachers" comments and ask yourself if the quality of writing, and the quality of expressed thinking, reaches the level one would expect from University graduates?

Thus, it should be obvious that "teachers" that have never been anywhere, and never done anything... essentially have nothing to teach and little surprise that the students come out of the process as uneducated as them. Schools in America do not educate, they socialize, so why blame the kids for the resulting ignorance? They never had a chance... and never will. It's too late for them, and their parents as well.

Why would anyone expect that teachers who are "losers" themselves would produce "winners?" And why would anyone be surprised when the schools build losers? Especially when previous generations produced enough winners to make (and keep) America great. People that know nothing can teach nothing and that fact is that that's what happened.

Many participants in this thread are literally breaking their arms pointing fingers everywhere but at themselves, but for those of us that were actually educated there's no need to read about the 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' because we see right now before our eyes. And the reason for America's decline is clear, it's the people. Look in the mirror first.

Some years ago I returned to Grad School and taught at the college level. I was shocked at the levels of ignorance demonstrated by my students and now those idiots have college degrees and children even stupider than themselves. Clearly the handwriting was on the wall 20 years ago in the rush to the lowest common denominator.

Has anybody noticed the decline in IQ's in America in the past 40 years? Does anyone really think that fat stupid ugly crazy parents will produce anything other than the same in their children? In a country where 50% of people believe that war and torture is OK why would children would learn human values like honor and integrity? Or anything else for that matter. Or respect anything, including themselves.

I could write a dissertation on this kettle of fish but it stinks to High Heaven and frankly I don't care because nothing will change, it's gone too far; but anyone who has studied history knows why this has happened and also knows how other societies approached an obvious problem. But the Monkeys aren't interested and I don't want to be abused by them so I can't say any more.

edit on 17-1-2011 by Brown Bear because: to add insult to injury

I really really really really really really really really really really really really liked this post.
Actually i really didn't. You insulted everyone that posted. You put absolutely no input on the problem. You gave the reasons.
We're losers, our parents are fat, and we cannot solve any of this. Oh and we're ignorant therefore we cannot be helped.
Did i miss something?
I mean you can go ahead and say that your degree has helped you completely understand me with this post because obviously im a problem and you're everything. Actually you presented yourself as god. And it's true, you are god. Because you went to grad school and teached at the college level and noticed a problem.


Oh look you said we're socialized, not educated. Guess that's somewhat helpful.
Too bad i cannot have any imput on this because i'm socialized and not educated :[

reply to post by Anttyk47


Lady, I'd say you pretty well described yourself to a T and hopefully many like you will respond so that real people with real educations (and real brains) can see the value of your words and thoughts as I predict your points will prove mine.

Have at it.

Originally posted by Brown Bear
reply to post by Anttyk47

 

Lady, I'd say you pretty well described yourself to a T and hopefully many like you will respond so that real people with real educations (and real brains) can see the value of your words and thoughts as I predict your points will prove mine.

Have at it.

You're such a better person than me because you had an education
Please cut me in line if you died after me, for judgment day in front of god.
You desire it, because you got an education.

reply to post by Brown Bear


Well, well, well. It seems that you have come in riding on the white horse to save us all from our "ignorance and stupidity." I have a few problems with your response, and I will deal with each individually.

As for the students: I appreciate your point of view but be assured that the opinions of children that have just come through Public School in America have NO value whatsoever... except perhaps as amusement. But very few of us are amused by you. Sightings of your shortcomings have preceded you for several generations now.

Let me ask you this: what are your qualifications to judge the American education system? Do you hold multiple degrees in multiple subjects, or are you just another typical collegiate fellow that believes that he is higher and mightier than the rest of us? I will freely admit that the American education system is broken. That is the reason that I left it. There needs to be restructuring and revision on all levels. However, if you look at the top of the "food chain" you will see that the government holds many if not all public schools by the proverbial "jewels," which causes change from within the system to be almost non-existent.

As for the teachers: In fields that successfully produce things of value there's a saying, "it's a poor mechanic that blames his tools." And another, "people who can do, DO. People who CAN'T DO, teach." I invite everyone to reread these self-professed "teachers" comments and ask yourself if the quality of writing, and the quality of expressed thinking, reaches the level one would expect from University graduates?

How does the quality of expressed writing and thinking have anything to do with teaching capability in the least? Where is the correlation? Do you have studies to link to all of us, or are you just pulling more rhetoric out of your behind?

As far as your sayings: all of them are bunk. Look at the education system. Take a deeper look at the education system. You would not ask an aeronautical engineer to build a ship capable of flying to Mars and back with a roll of duct tape, a few feet of sheet metal, and some nuts and bolts, would you? Why should the teaching force in America be dealt the same hand? The mantra has always been "do more with less" in the education field. Why is that? Surely there must be a deeper conspiracy at hand, if we as teachers are not given the proper tools from which to teach. Your argument about the mechanic does not fit the mold.

"People who can, do. People who cannot, teach." Once again, another frivolous statement. You neglect to factor into the equation the individuals that want to teach, because their desire is stronger in that area than in the application of the information presented. Many teachers go into the field in an attempt to "make a difference" in the world. Then there are those, perhaps like yourself, that are in the field for the fringe benefits: long, paid vacations, superb health care, tenure, etc.

I am only speaking for myself, but in my field, I could "do". I sustained a career-ending injury which forced me into the public education field to sustain a reasonable living wage. I think that your accusations and rhetoric on the topic are way off base.

Thus, it should be obvious that "teachers" that have never been anywhere, and never done anything... essentially have nothing to teach and little surprise that the students come out of the process as uneducated as them.

I'm sorry, but you paint a picture with a brush far too wide for what is required. I performed with some of the top performers in my field, attended several conferences, participated in hundreds of hours of master classes, and held a professional job in the meantime. I speak only for myself, of course. You label all instructors as the same type of person, but, sadly, you are mistaken.

Why would anyone expect that teachers who are "losers" themselves would produce "winners?" And why would anyone be surprised when the schools build losers? Especially when previous generations produced enough winners to make (and keep) America great. People that know nothing can teach nothing and that fact is part of what happened.

"Losers?" So now you are using terms that one with a "higher education" would not be so eager to use in an intellectual debate. I congratulate you on a great job sticking to your point with that statement. You just proved your own case. Do you know why previous generations "produced enough winners to keep America great?" It is because we (America) were an industrial nation up until the rise of the microchip and super computer. Most factory workers at the time had no further than an 8th grade education. Some didn't even make it that far. Do you know where much of the knowledge came from? It was from parents passing down trades through generations. The art of the "trade" has been all but lost in this country. As a collective, up until around the early 50's this country thrived on trade professions: shoe makers, leather workers, metal workers, etc. This country was good at what it did: building products to ship to consumers. Of course, there were doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other professions that required a college education, but those people who chose to live in that line of work were few and far between. Over 65% of the professions in this country were only reliant on heavy hands and a strong back, so don't use the argument that they needed the "intellectual pursuits" as well.

"People that know nothing can teach nothing" has nothing to do with the declination of this country's educational system. As I said before, look at the top of the food chain to find your answers. Of course, this also furthers my point on the fact that parents are more than partially to blame. This goes back at least two generations, of course. I personally blame the baby boomer generation for our current decline, but you're welcome to use a dart board to come up with your response, as it seems you have no trouble using one up to this point.

Some years ago I returned to Grad School and taught at the college level. I was shocked at the levels of ignorance demonstrated by my students and now those idiots have college degrees and children even stupider than themselves. Clearly the handwriting was on the wall 20 years ago and the rush to the lowest common denominator was clear.

Well, I'm happy that you decided to get a higher education. Kudos to you for doing that. I too taught at the collegiate level while in grad school, and quite frankly, found no fault with my students. They were all quite brilliant, well-versed in a wide array of topics, and performed quite well on both written, and performance-based exams.

Oh, and if you want to get nit-picky, "stupider" is not proper grammar. The term best suited for the message you are trying to convey is "more stupid."

Has anybody noticed the decline in IQ's in America in the past 40 years? Does anyone really think that fat stupid ugly crazy parents will produce anything other than the same in their children? In a country where 50% of people believe that war and torture is OK why would children learn human values like honor and integrity? Or anything else for that matter? Or respect anything, including themselves.

Not at all. The only thing that has changed is the old way of thinking. It sounds to me like you need to catch up with the times. Do you have a case of "future-itis?"

Stupid, ugly, fat parents? Is that really the logical statement from someone who supposedly instructed collegiate students? Where did you come up with the value of 50% when talking about citizens thinking that torture and war is okay? Care to come up with some figures, or perhaps diagrams and charts for those of us who are "so much less intelligent" than you proclaim that you are?

I could write a dissertation on this kettle of fish but it stinks to High Heaven and frankly I don't care because nothing will change, it's gone too far; but anyone who has studied history knows why this has happened and also knows how other societies approached an all too obvious problem. But the Monkeys aren't interested and I don't want to be abused by them so I can't say more.

Throwing insults into a debating platform is not only a huge no-no, but it also takes away from the statement you are trying to make. I would suggest that you blame your parents, or perhaps your former teachers for not instructing you on proper manners and etiquette when dealing with an intellectual debate situation.


I've said all I've needed to on here, but I'm sure it's quite clear to many readers that you have discredited yourself through your rhetoric, and blatant mud-slinging.





Peace be with you.

-truthseeker

reply to post by MikeNice81


I was going to reply to that same post, but your reply said it all. Some times young people don't realize the historic significance older generations have contributed to their "free thinking" and improved way of life.

I can see it... and I could safely say a few others do too.

Many of the younger posters, all of who were raised in the divisive agenda of these past 30 years, are unable to see what is clearly seen by most of those who were here before the agenda got underway. They do not have the Tools to See it. No insult intended younger folks.. just an observation.

It does not matter their level of education, most simply miss the most obvious. They argue from the same stance as my 16 year old daughter.. a position of certain Naivety. Naive because their life experience is so far too short to provide Wisdom of any great measure.

They will not understand that to have Adult Rights you will have aged to being an Adult, because right now they Believe they Deserve these Rights at any age and anyone who says No is an Enemy of sorts.

Not saying many aren't desiring to help create a Positive Change for Society.. many will once they move from working the more negative aspects of their experience to being more focused on positives... something that happens as we experience more of life over more time. Funny thing that.

reply to post by jonnywhite


When I was in high school a history teacher said this to our class.."a college education doesn't make you successful." It takes motivation, desire and a positive attitude to succeed in life.

You're not alone, there are a lot of college graduates that can't find jobs! Finding that perfect job is one of the hardest things to do in life! It's not as simple as just knocking on doors. You have to learn how to make contacts, create resumes that will grab an employer's attention, learn how to answer interviewing questions, research companies, know how to dress for an interview, and broadening your search. You may have to look outside of where you live to find work. You have to be persistent and don't let rejection get to you! Persistence pays off! Heck, I had to go back to school to get an associates degree in CAD to help boost my chances for employment. It took me (2 years to find a decent paying job!). I than had to go back to school to get certified to teach!

Hang in there, don't give up! Sometimes job offers come at a time you least expect it. Your hard work and good grades will pay-off once you find the job you're looking for. Employers are looking for hands-on experience, so keep that in mind when interviewing for a job.

reply to post by Brown Bear


After than long, long post of condemning everyone on the thread, you came up with the brilliant conclusion that the problem is due to inferior breeding of fat people who are producing inferior cildren with low IQ's across the fruited plain. What is the final solution you propose to solve this breeding problem we are encountering with the inferiors of society? Do you even listen to yourself?

reply to post by WTFover


That is a poltiical slogan designed by social engineers in service to keeping the current system in place. How are our children being socialized in an institution described by the OP day in and day out? They are in a herd of dysfunction and boredom. The teachers, trying to operate in a dysfunctional institution with dysfunctional children are dysfunctional themselves. (See zero tolerance policies when a first grader drawing a picture of a gun or an older child taking a knife to school to cut his apple is hungely punished as a crime and an example.) That is how they are being socalized in public schools right now.

Surely change is needed and quick. The mass production or factory socializing of our children in public schools is failing. The teachers can't fix it. The kids can't fix it. The parents can not fix it. Testing and punishment can not fix it. It is a totally dysfunction system designed for a population in a totally different era of Amerian life. Everyone is resistent and afraid to change with the times.

I wanted to add something here about the socialization argument. One of my sons was not learning to read in the herd school because he needed quiet to focus his mind. The chaos in his classroom was mind bending for him. He went to school ready to read - he knew all his phonics sounds and could read many basic words. He loved books. He regressed in school because of the chaos and noise. His personality was changing, too. He was not as happy and did not trust himself to be able to do his work. The school wanted me to put him on drugs.

I was able to bring him home for a year and used a home school program used by American diplomats in oversees assignments. After a year, he read and performed math at the sixth grade level and he was happy again. He and I got closer and to this day (he's in college) he respects his dad and me and loves us from what came out of that year together. He knew I rescued him without me telling him that. He still played town sports. He still played with his friends when he had the time. He learned to play the flute. He got more solid in himself - who he is as a person separate from the herd. So this argument about socialization glory of public schools really has to be questioned. The public school factories are not working.

reply to post by 2manyquestions


I can not explain why our schools are socially dysfunctional, whereas other societies have managed to make the classrooms work as you have experienced. All I know is that our schools are dysfunctional and have been since the early 80's and all our efforts to improve them have failed. We need to change. I have my theories as to what has happened but these arguments - never ending battles of social and political ideology and education theory - have proven useless in fixing the problem of dysfunction.

About kids doing work on their own, homeschool classrooms might be able to teach you something about this. In most homeschool you are free for more ejoyable activities (sports, field trips, shopping, friend visiting, music lessons, art classes and projects, drama activities, cooking, etc.) once you have completed your work correctly for the day and demonstrated you understand your lessons to your teacher. If the child wants to lag and mess around, he does not get to do a lot of fun and interesting activities available to him. All incentive is to focus your intention and mind, master your lessons and move on with the other kids. So you can do your school work in two hours or ten hours - it's up to you. The children who are having trouble get the individual or small group attention they need and the kids who are finished move onto other special interest activies they choose to do. There is no busy work. Only the meat of the subject matter for learning and mastering the subject matter is presented for the kids to do.

As a teacher, you might come up with your own ideas of how this kind of change could work out for the kids, teachers and parents. But leaving the system in it's current state is absolutely abusive of everyone in the United States.

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn


Excellent post. It sounds to me like your method works, and that is the method which should be applied to most children. Children are master manipulators. If they find your weak spot, they exploit it constantly. Having tantrums and faking tears is one way for them to get what they want. They'll scream "I hate you! You're mean!" and many parents are deeply affected by that. They don't want to be the bad guy. What they don't realize is that children use these words to get what they want. They know you can't stand it, so they say it when they want you to bend over backwards for all their wants and desires. A good parent doesn't let that stop them from carrying out a well-deserved punishment to the very end.

Being firm and standing by your guns is one way to show a bratty child that you will not give in to their manipulation. If the child is screaming, they will eventually get tired of screaming. They'll learn that screaming is not the way to get what they want. It could be difficult to endure it at first, but it's a small price to pay for the positive results in future behavior. .

Hello Folks,

Just wanted to let you know that I am reading all the comments and will respond in due time.

Unfortunately it seems possible that this thread has run its course so I suggest that another thread be started in which I will attempt to respond in a more personal manner on first come first served basis.

I threw out a lot of hooks in my previous post with the intention of snagging Bottom Fish while anyone with reasonable intelligence and a historical perspective should be able to read between the lines.

It's past time in this country to call a Spade a Spade regardless of whatever the lemmings insist is otherwise and I will respond to any intelligent position, and laugh at the rest.

I will admit surprise that so many youngsters read ATS but now realize that that explains why so many ATS'ers postings appear immature, poorly written, and half-baked.

So there you go... I have learned something from this thread beyond the obvious about which I've already commented.

Go for it. Have at it.

Originally posted by sara123123
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

I can not explain why our schools are socially dysfunctional, whereas other societies have managed to make the classrooms work as you have experienced. All I know is that our schools are dysfunctional and have been since the early 80's and all our efforts to improve them have failed. We need to change. I have my theories as to what has happened but these arguments - never ending battles of social and political ideology and education theory - have proven useless in fixing the problem of dysfunction.

I think I already partly explained why schools in other countries "work". They work, because people there grow up with cultural standards unlike that of many Americans. Education is highly valued, and parents still discipline their children into behaving. Most European parents have high expectations from their children, wanting them to become doctors, nurses, physicists, chemists, engineers, and all those high-end careers. They pride themselves on it, and if their child falls behind in school or if they receive reports from their teachers that these kids are misbehaving, they address the problem with punishment.

I'm sad to say that as the years go by, this prized cultural standard is slowly eroding even there, and kids are starting to become a bit more bratty than they used to be. With all the new age crap about empowering children and giving them adult-like freedoms such as major decision-making, a couple of European countries here and there are eating it up. I've noticed it when I go back to visit. It's a disease spreading from the West to the East.

About kids doing work on their own, homeschool classrooms might be able to teach you something about this. In most homeschool you are free for more ejoyable activities (sports, field trips, shopping, friend visiting, music lessons, art classes and projects, drama activities, cooking, etc.) once you have completed your work correctly for the day and demonstrated you understand your lessons to your teacher. If the child wants to lag and mess around, he does not get to do a lot of fun and interesting activities available to him. All incentive is to focus your intention and mind, master your lessons and move on with the other kids. So you can do your school work in two hours or ten hours - it's up to you. The children who are having trouble get the individual or small group attention they need and the kids who are finished move onto other special interest activies they choose to do. There is no busy work. Only the meat of the subject matter for learning and mastering the subject matter is presented for the kids to do.

I don't really have a problem with home schooling (there are a few exceptions), but even in this environment they need someone to guide and teach them. Usually that would be the parents. A child cannot be left alone to learn on it's own. As long as the student has a good and able teacher to guide him/her, homeschooling is O.K. That's assuming that the parents are smart, and do a good job teaching. Not all parents have the time, or are capable of doing so. If both parents are working to make a living and pay the bills, who is going to home-school little Billy? Remember, schools not only give kids an education, they also babysit them while mom and dad are working. Those are two out of the many other benefits that public school provides.

On the other hand, as someone already mentioned above me in reply to your post, you have to consider the child's social skills. If you home-school every kid in the U.S., they will not learn how to work in groups. It is absolutely detrimental that kids learn to work with each other. It's good to know how to work on one's own, of course, but working and collaborating in groups is also very, very important. Communication skills are a must, something home-schooling may not necessarily provide. There are just some things that a child will not learn while being home schooled.

As a teacher, you might come up with your own ideas of how this kind of change could work out for the kids, teachers and parents. But leaving the system in it's current state is absolutely abusive of everyone in the United States.

The system is not entirely to blame here. You have to blame the parents first for not instilling discipline on their children. If Billy is a brat who likes to talk during class and who doesn't like doing his homework, he disrupts the entire class, therefore slowing down all the other children who may want to learn new things. If Billy's teacher isn't allowed to discipline Billy, because Billy's parents would then go and sue the school, what is Billy's teacher to do? She can spend half an hour telling Billy to "please be quiet" or "go to the principal's office", or she can punish Billy in a way that will matter to him. Getting kicked out of class is not punishment. That just means Billy doesn't have to sit in class, and his parents certainly don't care, so he won't get into trouble at home either. If punishment for talking in class was to do or experience something very unpleasant, he would be more motivated to behave in the classroom. Since Billy already knows the school can't do anything to hurt him in any way, he will continue to do whatever amuses him. Multiply Billy by millions, and you've got a schooling system in chaos.

If teachers wouldn't have to spend half the class time telling kids to sit down and shut up, the other children might actually learn something during the school year. Of course when these well-behaved children see these brats acting up in class, the behavior becomes infectious. When they see these brats are getting away with everything, the good children may be tempted to behave in similar ways, feeling completely invincible. You see where I'm going with this?

Originally posted by Brown Bear
Hello Folks,

Just wanted to let you know that I am reading all the comments and will respond in due time.

Unfortunately it seems possible that this thread has run its course so I suggest that another thread be started in which I will attempt to respond in a more personal manner on first come first served basis.

I threw out a lot of hooks in my previous post with the intention of snagging Bottom Fish while anyone with reasonable intelligence and a historical perspective should be able to read between the lines.

It's past time in this country to call a Spade a Spade regardless of whatever the lemmings insist is otherwise and I will respond to any intelligent position, and laugh at the rest.

I will admit surprise that so many youngsters read ATS but now realize that that explains why so many ATS'ers postings appear immature, poorly written, and half-baked.

So there you go... I have learned something from this thread beyond the obvious about which I've already commented.

Go for it. Have at it.

Brown bear,
i was the only one that replied to you other than Truthseeker. I'm glad that you assume i'm a bottom feeder.
I'm glad that you pretend to denounce your previous statement by saying you were playing a mind game of finding out the immature half-baked childish posters and wanted to self-weed out the intelligent posters because you are so high and mighty. Writing at a higher standard does show higher education, but it does not mean you should just disregard everything i say because you feel as though i cannot write at a college level on everything piece of literature i compose. I have a feeling you're from New York. Most likely the East Coast. You have no form of helping the world. The only help in the world you can give is your services. Your disregard to society services. Your "I'm helping you because i get paid" services. Hope you enjoy your lonely death by the fireplace mister big shot. And please, disregard what i posted because not a single word i wrote had any intelligence backing it.

Originally posted by Brown Bear
Hello Folks,

Just wanted to let you know that I am reading all the comments and will respond in due time.

Unfortunately it seems possible that this thread has run its course so I suggest that another thread be started in which I will attempt to respond in a more personal manner on first come first served basis.

I threw out a lot of hooks in my previous post with the intention of snagging Bottom Fish while anyone with reasonable intelligence and a historical perspective should be able to read between the lines.

It's past time in this country to call a Spade a Spade regardless of whatever the lemmings insist is otherwise and I will respond to any intelligent position, and laugh at the rest.

I will admit surprise that so many youngsters read ATS but now realize that that explains why so many ATS'ers postings appear immature, poorly written, and half-baked.

So there you go... I have learned something from this thread beyond the obvious about which I've already commented.

Go for it. Have at it.

I think your pride is hurt. It is obvious to me that not many others on this thread responded to your sour words and "holier than art thou" tactics. You might as well have directed the post at me, because I destroyed your argument for the whole world to see. There was no "reading between the lines" in your previous post. Any of the "intelligent members" including myself could see through your tactics from paragraph one. You supplied nothing more than your opinion on the matter, and quite frankly, you destroyed your own argument by using the slanderous words that you used.

Your claim of "throwing out the hooks to catch the 'bottom fish' " is disgusting, vile, and rude. You are covering your own butt after being debased. Come back with some facts and figures to support your argument. I'm only speaking for myself, but I did not take any bit of your post seriously, and I hope I conveyed that in a message that is "intelligent enough" for you to understand.

This will be my last post to you because I don't make a habit of arguing with ignoramuses.





Peace be with you.

-truthseeker