Request for Evidence Against God

Originally posted by DontLegalizeDecriminalize

Originally posted by iamaperson

"Hmm, or one is correct? Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void."

Ok, there is one religion that is correct. Which one is the right one to choose then? And how do you know that religion is the correct one and not any other?

"Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void."

That is literally exactly what I was trying to get across. Since every or most of religions all state that they are the only correct religion, that would mean that they contradict each other. What I said was that all or most religions say that this is the only correct God that you can worship, you cannot worship any other God but him because any other God would be incorrect. Makes sense? You basically replaced the word God with religion, and tried to turn that against me somehow as if you're some sort of cunning linguist.

"So the point is that because no one has a good enough reason to choose a particular religion over another, we must get rid off religion? Thats what makes religion so bad, so destructive, not having proof? What?

"

No, you misinterpreted what I wrote, which is probably my fault for not explaining it better. The destructive part of religion is not the lack of proof, but the pointless wars and fighting that has occurred over time which were spent fighting over which lack-of-proof having religion is the right one. Does that make sense? You may have to reread that sentence a few times, because it's a little jumbled, but I think you'll understand.

"Religion the most destructive part of society!!! Wow, if you can back this statement up"

I think the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, the Rape of Nanking, and the many other utterly unbelievable acts of untold horrors (nice alliteration) back themselves up here

"they contradict each other" ok, so they contradict each other, understand (don't know what I was thinking then?). "You basically replaced the word God with religion, and tried to turn that against me somehow as if you're some sort of cunning linguist." Cunning linguist is something I am not, and I hope am not trying to make it out as if I am.

"No, you misinterpreted what I wrote, which is probably my fault for not explaining it better. The destructive part of religion is not the lack of proof, but the pointless wars and fighting that has occurred over time which were spent fighting over which lack-of-proof having religion is the right one. Does that make sense? You may have to reread that sentence a few times, because it's a little jumbled, but I think you'll understand. "

Now what I want is proof that it is religion that done those horrible acts, rather than people who used religion in their favor. Eg. does the Bible (Koran or any other major Holy Book) tell people to murder?

I do not think religion causes war, people do. Those people can use religion as a reason for war, but without religion they would still murder, they would use some other reason for their murders.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Judeo-Christians have proven that God is an Old Man with a White Beard.

All scientific attempts to have an intelligent conversation with the Sun have failed.

Yes silverware (especially forks) can provide Earthlings with a life giving Energy source.

… Am I joking?

reply to post by iamaperson



"Now what I want is proof that it is religion that done those horrible acts, rather than people who used religion in their favor. Eg. does the Bible (Koran or any other major Holy Book) tell people to murder? "

Well, considering that books are inanimate objects and they are incapable of communicating with other people and telling them to murder, I would say that the books are not responsible for the murders. Also, neither is religion, because it too is not a living, breathing human being, so it also cannot perform these horrible acts. Let it go on the record that you have outwitted me conversationally, and forced me to admit that books and religion cannot speak to humans. You sly dog

reply to post by DontLegalizeDecriminalize


"Now what I want is proof that it is religion that done those horrible acts, rather than people who used religion in their favor. Eg. does the Bible (Koran or any other major Holy Book) tell people to murder? "

Yes both books tell people to murder. Have you not read them yet?

Did Hitler know he was a delusional psycho? or did he think he was fulfilling the request of a supreme extraterrestrial race?

Originally posted by DontLegalizeDecriminalize
reply to post by iamaperson

 

"Now what I want is proof that it is religion that done those horrible acts, rather than people who used religion in their favor. Eg. does the Bible (Koran or any other major Holy Book) tell people to murder? "

Well, considering that books are inanimate objects and they are incapable of communicating with other people and telling them to murder, I would say that the books are not responsible for the murders. Also, neither is religion, because it too is not a living, breathing human being, so it also cannot perform these horrible acts. Let it go on the record that you have outwitted me conversationally, and forced me to admit that books and religion cannot speak to humans. You sly dog

Indeed, I won. Seriously though, I thought my question was reasonable; did religion cause these murders and cruelty? If there had been no religion would these acts have happened? I am sorry if my constant asking of more questions was unfriendly. I was not attempting to outsmart you, but was hoping you could smarten me, you see I don't see religion as the reason for these acts, while you do, and there must be a reason why you believe this. So I was honestly hoping for an answer explaining how religion caused these murders. Yes, I do know books can communicate with humans, and therefore religion can probably can start wars.

Originally posted by kimsie
reply to post by DontLegalizeDecriminalize

 

Yes both books tell people to murder. Have you not read them yet?

Both books? I guess you mean the Bible and Koran since I mentioned them, so they do tell people to murder, I was not aware. Indeed I have not read the Bible or the Koran from cover to cover (although plan to do so in the future, and am slowly doing it). I guess I will just have to read the entire thing before I know what you mean, since you gave no excerpts, places or examples of the Bible or Koran telling us to murder. Thanks for your input, I was not aware, sorry.

That quote was by me not by "DontLegalizeDecriminalize" as you may have thought (since he's the one your replying to). He was refuting it also.

reply to post by iamaperson


Yes I am trying to "smarten you"
NO I do not see religion as the cause of horrific acts of violence.
Delusional Psychos cause these acts.
Religion is an excuse.

Religion is basically a culture based reminder that we are not alone in the Heavens and your deeds in this life matter.

Originally posted by kimsie
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Yes I am trying to "smarten you"
NO I do not see religion as the cause of horrific acts of violence.
Delusional Psychos cause these acts.
Religion is an excuse.

Religion is basically a culture based reminder that we are not alone in the Heavens and your deeds in this life matter.

So your agnostic or theist, certainly not anti-theist. Thanks for your input, it seems someone agrees with (unless your being sarcastic). Thanks.

reply to post by iamaperson


Alrighty, so I'm going to try to add some stuff that others haven't, as others have added some great stuff already. I might be repeating some of what others said, just because I find it necessary.

Originally posted by iamaperson
This request is for Anti-Theists to fulfill, as they are the ones not only making a statement that God does not exist, but that there should be no religion.

No, atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, not the direct statement that a deity does not exist. It's "I do not believe God exists" not "God does not exist". "God does not exist" would be an epistemologically based statement, not a belief based one. It would be the statement of a gnostic atheist.

So why should there be no religion?

Because it's harmful and untruthful.

To be on a mission to abolish all religion,

We're not on a mission to abolish religion. We don't want it legally banned, we don't want it removed by force. Well, some of us do, but I don't agree with those individuals.

I would suspect that you have undeniable proof that God does not exist,

No, we just have a lack of any proof that any deity exists, not just the capitalized monotheistic one.

and that religion is dangerous/bad/you know what I mean.

Oh, there's plenty of that. There is an inverse relation between societal health and religiosity, there's a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ scores (though this one needs a bit more research, I think the methodology looks sound), etc. In the USA, atheists make up around 10% of the population, yet they make up around 1% of prison populations. In the USA, atheists are less likely to get divorced, have abortions, have an STD, and/or get pregnant as teenagers.

To date I have not heard a good enough argument for either of those.

Well, let's address the issue of God's existence.

To be frank, it is an extraordinary claim that any deity exists, far more extraordinary when you consider how many other deities are claimed to exist.

Now, an atheist (more specifically, an agnostic atheist as I have not actually met a gnostic atheist in my time) is an individual for who the claims of any deity has not met the burden of proof, not a person who claims that those proposed beings don't exist.

It would be more reasonable of me to ask you how you know Poseidon, Vishnu, Sussanoo, Quetzalcoatl, Nut, etc don't exist and why you accept your specific deity over all those other claims than it would be for you to attack me for not accepting your single claim.

We reject most claims more or less equally. Some are slightly more ridiculous than others.

The reason being that I could quite easily come up with a thing off the top of my head that, like any deity, is impossible to prove doesn't exist. Like an invisible, incorporeal, space-faring spoon that gives peanut butter to those who believe it with all their hearts. Or I could just come out with many of the already established examples: Could you prove that Sagan's garage dragon doesn't exist? Could you prove that the Invisible Pink Unicorn doesn't exist? Could you prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist? etc.

As I said, I am aiming this question kindly at the anti-theists who might be lurking around on ATS, because atheists can safely assume that since there is no evidence or reason for religion, there is no god, and do not need to have evidence against God, and therefore probably do not know of any evidence, but of course if anyone has anything to contribute, please do so.

Anti-theism isn't saying there is evidence against a deity, it's saying that the belief in a deity is harmful and dangerous.

As for evidence against a specific deity? I can actually come up with reasons why certain deities are either incredibly unlikely or logically contradictory.

Anyway, this is my first thread, and I had nothing really to contribute in any topic, so I decided just to get a thread started on a religious topic in the off-topic side. This is just something I have always wondered, does anyone actually have any proof against religion, or does everyone rely upon the fact that there is apparently no proof for God.

Well, there's quite a lot of proof that religion itself is harmful. Case in point, the country I live in, Malta. We have all sorts of societal issues because of religion (specifically the Catholic Church). Our nation is one of maybe 2 in the world that doesn't allow for divorce. Our nation had censorship laws and has previously banned films on religious grounds (like The Last Temptation of Christ), people are regularly convicted of blasphemy (hundreds a year in a nation of 400,000 people), and people have to watch how they speak out against the Church lest they violate a law that prevents the vilification of it.

Finally, if anyone has proof for God, share that too.

I actually tried that a while ago, but it became an incredibly muddled discussion. You can check my thread history, I think it's entitled "Proofs of God/reasons to believe in one" or something like that.

reply to post by iamaperson


Yes exactly, but the beautiful thing about contradiction in all these religions is simple.
Yin Yang, Good Evil, God Satan, eye for an eye, Karma, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .... etc blah you heard it all once.

The balance of Good and evil will always stay consistant.

It really is that simple and you are making it too complicated.

Thank you, clears stuff up (although some of it is obviously already stated).

So atheism is not even a belief there is no God, and anti-theism does not want religion gone by force, OK, I am wrong, thank you for educating me.

Untruthful, as an anti-theist it would be seen as that. Harmful, you address this issue later.

"there's a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ scores (though this one needs a bit more research, I think the methodology looks sound)" I have seen that one, and I believe the graph was very similar to one between wealth and IQ.

"There is an inverse relation between societal health and religiosity"

Have not seen that one, would like to also know the reasons behind it. Probably the same reason as IQ one.

"In the USA, atheists make up around 10% of the population, yet they make up around 1% of prison populations. In the USA, atheists are less likely to get divorced, have abortions, have an STD, and/or get pregnant as teenagers."

Hmm, so this is data of people going to prison? While in prison I suppose people would want to convert perhaps. Need to know source, you don't need to worry, I will research tomorrow. Divorcing is easy to know, Atheists probably get married less. Have abortions, STDs, teenage pregnancy? sounds strange, I dont see a reason for that, need to research.

"Well, let's address the issue of God's existence.

To be frank, it is an extraordinary claim that any deity exists, far more extraordinary when you consider how many other deities are claimed to exist."

It is again the lack of proof, but ok.

"Anti-theism isn't saying there is evidence against a deity, it's saying that the belief in a deity is harmful and dangerous."

Fair enough...

As for evidence against a specific deity? I can actually come up with reasons why certain deities are either incredibly unlikely or logically contradictory."

Nice.

"Case in point, the country I live in, Malta. We have all sorts of societal issues because of religion (specifically the Catholic Church). Our nation is one of maybe 2 in the world that doesn't allow for divorce. Our nation had censorship laws and has previously banned films on religious grounds (like The Last Temptation of Christ), people are regularly convicted of blasphemy (hundreds a year in a nation of 400,000 people), and people have to watch how they speak out against the Church lest they violate a law that prevents the vilification of it."

Ok, thats a fair point, so people do actually have to go to jail because of religion, although, I must admit, after thinking about it a while I come to the conclusion (yet again), that it is a particular human who made that law, not religion really, my belief in a God, as far as I know, has not caused anyone to go to jail or caused me to murder. I don't think it has caused me to write this poorly, thats just who I am, and the fact its past 1am here (whoa, I should be sleeping).

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I actually tried that a while ago, but it became an incredibly muddled discussion. You can check my thread history, I think it's entitled "Proofs of God/reasons to believe in one" or something like that.

Will do, thanks for the long post, clears stuff up and makes sense to me (most of it).

The thread is at: www.abovetopsecret.com... reading it now, no, tomorrow, better get to sleep.

Originally posted by kimsie
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Yes exactly, but the beautiful thing about contradiction in all these religions is simple.
Yin Yang, Good Evil, God Satan, eye for an eye, Karma, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .... etc blah you heard it all once.

The balance of Good and evil will always stay consistant.

It really is that simple and you are making it too complicated.

Very interesting thought, good and evil always consistent...

So you say that is all to religion, nothing else, just that good and bad are consistent?

reply to post by iamaperson


Consistant Balance is a law of the Universe.

“There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; or you can live as if everything is a miracle.”
Albert Einstein

reply to post by iamaperson


I just made a tread about scientific evidence of heaven and hell here on ATS
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by iamaperson

Originally posted by Akragon
You mean of course other then the obvious issues the church has...molesting children and trying to cover it up.

Forcing people to believe in fairy tails as opposed to true spiritual knowledge...

Asking for 10-20% or more of their yearly earnings...while most "ministers" sport a nice mercedes and an expensive suit?

Rewriting the book that was supposed to be inspired by God or Godly men (ya right)

Countless murders rapes and other atrosities all though out history in the name of God....


Shall i go on?

Btw i know God exists thats not the problem, religion has little to do with God....that IS the problem

edit on 4-1-2011 by Akragon because: Clarity

The church is not the religion, it is the people. Molesting people has nothing to do with religion, it is to do with certain individuals, if there was no religion, there would still be people molesting others, abolishing religion is not the cure for society in that regard (I am sure there are atheist molesters). "Forcing people to believe in fairy tails as opposed to true spiritual knowledge..." true spiritual knowledge? sounds like you are talking about religion and organized religion maybe, I am unsure.

True spiritual knowledge being how to develop your own spirit as opposed to listening to a so called "man of God" tell you stories from the bible which may have some moral value but little spiritual worth.... IF they were truely men of God they would know better then useing their postion of power to take advantage of children...Wouldn't you think?

Spending money on the church is a personal thing, not really a part of religion, but of church. You can practice religion without even going to church, and you can go to church without paying anything.

You're missing the point, where do you think that money goes....in some cases its used in good ways, but in many they pastor / minister takes it for himself....especially these bloody evangelists...most time the "minister" has rock star status, driving a benz, wareing expensive suits, sporting gold rings, chains etc etc

Rewriting a book, I guess this is the proof against validity, but you need to be more specific, I don't see how that makes religion false.

They rewrote the book to further their own agendas, it had nothing to do with God or spirituality which is what all aspects of religion are about. Greedy men that wanted to perpetuate they're own power...

Murder and rape inspired by God, what are you talking about?

Don't change my words around, i said "in the Name of God"....read your history

Last point I read last, haha. "Btw i know God exists thats not the problem, religion has little to do with God....that IS the problem" so you are talking about religion and organized religion, religion appears to have more than one meaning, which creates a problem, so what Anti Theists are against is organized religion? Why call it anti-"THEISM", theism=The doctrine or belief in the existence of a God or gods

Personally i don't call myself anything, i don't consider myself anything except a spiritual person....As a matter of fact i had to look up the word "Theism" before i could answer another poster who asked me if im a theist.

I don't feel the need to put a name to what i believe, but if you must...again i would say spiritualist.

So can I ask you for evidence that there IS a God?

Dont get me wrong, I believe in the Christian God (not necessarily the church... cults are scary and I just got out of one). I don't post topics like this because I can't prove what I believe. So, forgive me, but maybe you should prove the existence of God before asking why people don't believe in Him?

Just my two cents..

Im expecting another post from someone questioning what i call "True spiritual knowledge" So i'll answer before that post actually comes...

Im talking about meditation... If you've ever met someone that routinely practices mediatation you'll usually find they have no need to lie, greed and hatered are not in them. They judge no one but only except everything.

Once you know and understand the spirit the lesser of human nature becomes useless, no need for violence, no need for material posessions (not saying they don't have any) Happy to help anyone in need, and give to the less fortunate

And you'll also find they don't hang out on forums and post what they believe in, they know what is true and usually could care less what others think.

Originally posted by SFlowers
So can I ask you for evidence that there IS a God?

Dont get me wrong, I believe in the Christian God (not necessarily the church... cults are scary and I just got out of one). I don't post topics like this because I can't prove what I believe. So, forgive me, but maybe you should prove the existence of God before asking why people don't believe in Him?

Just my two cents..

No problem....but you have to prove it to yourself. Meditation is the way my friend....learn it, practice it, sooner or later when the time is right...you'll know it.

You can't prove the existance of God to anyone, he wants you to have a personal relationship with him...

Jesus is the true son of God who came to this Earth and died for the world. Believe in Him and you will have eternal life.