Request for Evidence Against God

This request is for Anti-Theists to fulfill, as they are the ones not only making a statement that God does not exist, but that there should be no religion. So why should there be no religion? To be on a mission to abolish all religion, I would suspect that you have undeniable proof that God does not exist, and that religion is dangerous/bad/you know what I mean. To date I have not heard a good enough argument for either of those.

As I said, I am aiming this question kindly at the anti-theists who might be lurking around on ATS, because atheists can safely assume that since there is no evidence or reason for religion, there is no god, and do not need to have evidence against God, and therefore probably do not know of any evidence, but of course if anyone has anything to contribute, please do so.

Anyway, this is my first thread, and I had nothing really to contribute in any topic, so I decided just to get a thread started on a religious topic in the off-topic side. This is just something I have always wondered, does anyone actually have any proof against religion, or does everyone rely upon the fact that there is apparently no proof for God.

Finally, if anyone has proof for God, share that too.

You mean of course other then the obvious issues the church has...molesting children and trying to cover it up.

Forcing people to believe in fairy tails as opposed to true spiritual knowledge...

Asking for 10-20% or more of their yearly earnings...while most "ministers" sport a nice mercedes and an expensive suit?

Rewriting the book that was supposed to be inspired by God or Godly men (ya right)

Countless murders rapes and other atrosities all though out history in the name of God....


Shall i go on?

Btw i know God exists thats not the problem, religion has little to do with God....that IS the problem

reply to post by iamaperson

This request is for Anti-Theists to fulfill, as they are the ones not only making a statement that God does not exist, but that there should be no religion.

To be fair it is GNOSTIC-Atheists who make the claim that there is no God, not anti-theists. Anti-theism is just the position of being against religion AND against god belief in general but it is not a positive assertion that there are/is no god(s). I have never met or encountered a gnostic-atheist. As an agnostic-atheist I disagree with both the gnostic-atheists and the gnostic-theists although there are certainly a lot more of the latter than the former.

To be on a mission to abolish all religion, I would suspect that you have undeniable proof that God does not exist

This isn't true at all. One can be a theist and be opposed to religious institutions. A good example of this would be deists. Many of the Founding Fathers expressed distrust of organized religion and religion in general, many were deists who did not see religion as being necessary. It isn't just deists and atheists who dislike organized religion. For Christians it makes sense to be anti-established religion as Christ was definitely in opposition to the religion of his day. One also doesn't need to be an atheist to see the damage that religious thinking has done over the centuries and even today we hear stories of parents who attempt to rely on prayer and forgo medical treatment and end up killing their kids.

does anyone actually have any proof against religion, or does everyone rely upon the fact that there is apparently no proof for God.

It depends on the religion but some glaring logical issues arise with the idea of a good God (such as Epicurus's famous argument about evil). It really depends on what God and what religion you're talking about. If you want some arguments about the Biblical God you can click the first link in my signature, I also have numerous threads mainly tackling the validity of the Bible and the position of Biblical literalists/fundamentalists.

I doubt you'll actually get any gnostic or positive atheists as they are obscenely rare.

One doesn't need evidence that something isn't true to disbelieve it. For instance I don't believe in fairies, I've never seen any evidence to suggest that fairies don't exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the burden of proof lies on those making a positive claim.

hold on

A atheist says there is no evidence of a deity (there isn't)
that is not stating there is no God...there could be one..just so far, any biblical version is debunked via evolution and cosmology understandings

For all we know, there could be some great interdimensional wizard that slapped the multidimensions together...but then again, maybe not.

Being against religion typically means being pro-science. religion is the counter to science...science is to know, religion..being the counter, would be to be ignorant.

A religious person states there is a God and he/she likes this and that and mades a bunch of stuff and etc.

A atheist responds with, hmm..ok, can you prove this claim, or are you just making stuff up?

its -not- up to the atheist to disprove God no more than it is up to him to disprove there is no spagetti monster or pixies in the garden...thats not how rational thinking works.

If you claim something..prove it. Religion claims something, and they never prove it..they just demand it and demonize anyone whom asks them to prove it.

BTW, I can resurrect people..full on resurrection. they can be dead for a few weeks and if I get within touching distance of them and say a few words, they will come back to life as if nothing happened.
Prove I can't...

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

I don't believe in fairies,

OMG!!!

CLAP YOUR HANDS AND SAY YOU BELIEVE!!! one dies everytime someone says that!!!

reply to post by SaturnFX


In that case the more I say it the closer I get to being right

The reason religion is bad ...there is no room for growth, It's a mentality put into a box. It;s the same reason that there are hundreds of branches/versions of religions . Say Christianity: how many versions do you have ? Buddhism , something that wasn't even meant to be a "religion" something more philosophical based , has 300 different versions. If there was one religion , so pure then why can't they all agree(all of them within the same religion or school of thought)? It's because religion wants people to believe that their way is the only way . It's brainwashing, There is no room to explore , to think or to go beyond the measures of a 2 by 4 box.
Religion and spirituality are two completely different things and if you examine them , one can deny the existence of god and be spiritual just as much as one can believe in a god and be spiritual. No one knows all the answers , I wish people would admit this.

reply to post by iamaperson


Religion is without a doubt the most destructive part of humanity. It has started countless wars and ended millions of lives. There is absolutely no validity in any religion because they all basically cancel each other out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most or all religions state that you cannot worship another God or follow another religion? So therefore all of them are void.
Another aspect of religion that has always baffled me is the fact that your religion is based almost entirely on your geography. If you are born in the middle of Afghanistan, chances are that you are going to be raised under their religion. If you're born here in America to a family of caucasians, chances are you're going to be raised as a Christian or Catholic. While that's not necessarily the case, your parents are another major factor that shape your religious outlook. Being born into it almost forces you to become a part of it.
The final part of religion that I don't understand how any person of faith can overlook is the one simple question: Which religion is the right one? Just because I live in America does not mean that Christianity is the only one true religion. Whenever I ask somebody this question, I'm always told that "It's a question of your faith". Well I have no faith in blindly devoting my entire life to a religion, especially when I have no proof whatsoever that that religion has a factual basis to it.
So IMO, religion is basically a bunch of old guys in dresses brutally murdering each other and ceaselessly arguing over whose imaginary god is the right one to worship. I'm not saying there is no God, because I believe there is some sort of higher power, but my problem is which God to worship. I can't just blindly devote my life to the teachings of a religion because some dude who has probably molested more boys (yes I love to generalize) than I can imagine told me it's the right religion. A mans word simply is not enough for me, and I am honestly shocked that people can follow a religion without this thought crossing their mind. Until I have some spiritual awakening or whatever that tells me what religion to follow, I'm not just going to conform with the people around me to fit in.

reply to post by iamaperson


You often hear people say there is no proof of God.

Who are we to assume our Sun is not a thinking, intelligent force?
The Sun gives everything on Earth, Life.
It is completely tangable. We can see it and feel it.
The Sun can destroy all life on Earth also.

Hidden in Plain Sight.

Don't you feel sorry for atheists?

reply to post by kimsie


You're joking right? I think you're being funny but let's pretend for a moment that you're being serious.

Who's to say?

How about every single shred of scientific evidence ever collected about the sun from antiquity right up until modern day? The facts are what say and the facts do not suggest the possibility that the sun is a sentient being. This is like believing that all clouds, or all rocks or all forks in your cutlery drawer are also sentient (which is why I hope you were just being funny).

Originally posted by Akragon
You mean of course other then the obvious issues the church has...molesting children and trying to cover it up.

Forcing people to believe in fairy tails as opposed to true spiritual knowledge...

Asking for 10-20% or more of their yearly earnings...while most "ministers" sport a nice mercedes and an expensive suit?

Rewriting the book that was supposed to be inspired by God or Godly men (ya right)

Countless murders rapes and other atrosities all though out history in the name of God....


Shall i go on?

Btw i know God exists thats not the problem, religion has little to do with God....that IS the problem

edit on 4-1-2011 by Akragon because: Clarity

The church is not the religion, it is the people. Molesting people has nothing to do with religion, it is to do with certain individuals, if there was no religion, there would still be people molesting others, abolishing religion is not the cure for society in that regard (I am sure there are atheist molesters). "Forcing people to believe in fairy tails as opposed to true spiritual knowledge..." true spiritual knowledge? sounds like you are talking about religion and organized religion maybe, I am unsure.

Spending money on the church is a personal thing, not really a part of religion, but of church. You can practice religion without even going to church, and you can go to church without paying anything.

Rewriting a book, I guess this is the proof against validity, but you need to be more specific, I don't see how that makes religion false.

Murder and rape inspired by God, what are you talking about?


Last point I read last, haha. "Btw i know God exists thats not the problem, religion has little to do with God....that IS the problem" so you are talking about religion and organized religion, religion appears to have more than one meaning, which creates a problem, so what Anti Theists are against is organized religion? Why call it anti-"THEISM", theism=The doctrine or belief in the existence of a God or gods.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


OK, sorry that I am uninformed on the matter, I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that anti-theism is against theism, as the name implies, and that theism=The doctrine or belief in the existence of a God or gods.

"One doesn't need evidence that something isn't true to disbelieve it. For instance I don't believe in fairies, I've never seen any evidence to suggest that fairies don't exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the burden of proof lies on those making a positive claim. " Understand that entirely.

Will read your signature link(s). Thanks.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

religion is the counter to science...science is to know, religion..being the counter, would be to be ignorant.

its -not- up to the atheist to disprove God no more than it is up to him to disprove there is no spagetti monster or pixies in the garden...thats not how rational thinking works.

BTW, I can resurrect people..full on resurrection. they can be dead for a few weeks and if I get within touching distance of them and say a few words, they will come back to life as if nothing happened.
Prove I can't...

Religion counter to science? Haven't heard that one.

It is not up to the atheist, that's exactly what I said (I think)

Lastly, if you want to believe that, go ahead, I will not be against you.

reply to post by iamaperson


Anti-theism is against theism but it isn't an outright statement that God's absolutely do not exist. One can be opposed to God belief without being certain that there are no gods. This may seem odd at first glance but it makes sense when you look closely at it. Like those fairies I mentioned I have no evidence that god(s) do not exist but that doesn't mean that people with a belief in god(s) are necessarily justified in their belief in the same way I'm not justified to believe in fairies simply because they haven't been completely disproved.

My blog primarily deals with refuting fundamentalist Christianity, that's the religious viewpoint I was originally raised with and so it is the one I understand the best and am most opposed to.

Originally posted by paleorchid13
Say Christianity: how many versions do you have ? Buddhism , something that wasn't even meant to be a "religion" something more philosophical based , has 300 different versions. If there was one religion , so pure then why can't they all agree(all of them within the same religion or school of thought)? It's because religion wants people to believe that their way is the only way .

There are many different interpretations of things in religion, yes, but does that mean it is wrong. There are many interpretations on history as well. Not all branches of Christianity believe that their way is the only way, but perhaps their way is the more correct way, or the better way, why else be in that particular branch.

Originally posted by DontLegalizeDecriminalize
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Religion is without a doubt the most destructive part of humanity. It has started countless wars and ended millions of lives. There is absolutely no validity in any religion because they all basically cancel each other out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most or all religions state that you cannot worship another God or follow another religion? So therefore all of them are void.
Another aspect of religion that has always baffled me is the fact that your religion is based almost entirely on your geography. If you are born in the middle of Afghanistan, chances are that you are going to be raised under their religion. If you're born here in America to a family of caucasians, chances are you're going to be raised as a Christian or Catholic. While that's not necessarily the case, your parents are another major factor that shape your religious outlook. Being born into it almost forces you to become a part of it.
The final part of religion that I don't understand how any person of faith can overlook is the one simple question: Which religion is the right one? Just because I live in America does not mean that Christianity is the only one true religion. Whenever I ask somebody this question, I'm always told that "It's a question of your faith". Well I have no faith in blindly devoting my entire life to a religion, especially when I have no proof whatsoever that that religion has a factual basis to it.
So IMO, religion is basically a bunch of old guys in dresses brutally murdering each other and ceaselessly arguing over whose imaginary god is the right one to worship. I'm not saying there is no God, because I believe there is some sort of higher power, but my problem is which God to worship. I can't just blindly devote my life to the teachings of a religion because some dude who has probably molested more boys (yes I love to generalize) than I can imagine told me it's the right religion. A mans word simply is not enough for me, and I am honestly shocked that people can follow a religion without this thought crossing their mind. Until I have some spiritual awakening or whatever that tells me what religion to follow, I'm not just going to conform with the people around me to fit in.

Religion the most destructive part of society!!! Wow, if you can back this statement up, we must get rid off all religion, this sounds bad for religion, but good for our society and our future.

"There is absolutely no validity in any religion because they all basically cancel each other out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most or all religions state that you cannot worship another God or follow another religion? So therefore all of them are void." Hmm, or one is correct? Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void.

"Another aspect of religion that has always baffled me is the fact that your religion is based almost entirely on your geography" very good point, I have thought about that too, and since it was the caucasians whom made these big advances in globalization Christianity is so popular... Why were the caucasians the ones, that's one of the things that baffles me also.

So the point is that because no one has a good enough reason to choose a particular religion over another, we must get rid off religion? Thats what makes religion so bad, so destructive, not having proof? What?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Anti-theism is against theism but it isn't an outright statement that God's absolutely do not exist. One can be opposed to God belief without being certain that there are no gods. This may seem odd at first glance but it makes sense when you look closely at it. Like those fairies I mentioned I have no evidence that god(s) do not exist but that doesn't mean that people with a belief in god(s) are necessarily justified in their belief in the same way I'm not justified to believe in fairies simply because they haven't been completely disproved.

My blog primarily deals with refuting fundamentalist Christianity, that's the religious viewpoint I was originally raised with and so it is the one I understand the best and am most opposed to.

It sure seems odd, saying your opposed to something you are uncertain of. I would have allowed you to believe in the fairies, sure I would like for you to explain why, but I would not be against you.

BTW, I have begun reading your blog, and must say it is fairly well written. The first part of the first post I saw on the blog begun talking about God being a horrible being for putting anyone into hell, a topic I also have often wondered about and sometimes thought that maybe religion is wrong, or that we are run by a somewhat uncaring God (how can you subject anyone to hell if you love them and could have them in heaven?), however after reading about NDEs (all of them could very well have been fairytales), I only read about them on the net etc.) and I came to some NDE which described an atheist who "died" and was sent to a dark place where creatures attacked him and then begun taking him into hell, initially he begun walking, but he was attacked frequently and realized that this was horrible. After a while he remembered some things he had heard about God and Jesus, so he yelled Jesus' name and the creatures backed off in pain, as he continued saying Jesus help me etc. an angel came to take him up to heaven as he had accepted Jesus as his savior, after which he had to return to earth. I am fully aware that this may not be true in any way (and probably isn't), however I realized the possibility that everyone in the world will at some-point begin to believe God is real, and will end up in heaven, no one going to hell, of-course this thought could very well be horribly wrong, but it is an alternative to the bad God.

reply to post by iamaperson


Near Death Experiences are interesting but the more we learn about brain chemistry the more they appear to be the final dream of a dying brain. It'd be nice if there was an afterlife and certainly I'd like there to be one but my personal preference has no bearing on the truth and there's no good evidence to suggest an afterlife or a god.

For a time I was a pantheist who believed in reincarnation because it sounded like the after-life with the least dread involved. I'd always been terrified of the idea of living forever or just not existing anymore so reincarnation seemed the best of both worlds because I got to continue on but I wouldn't necessarily know that I'd lived before so I wouldn't go mad from having to live forever without end. Eventually I realized the lack of evidence meant that no matter how hard I wanted to believe in reincarnation I didn't have any good reason too outside of personal desire.

To be fully honest I don't have that big a problem with people believing whatever they want as long as they maintain an agnostic position when it comes to what they claim to know. Anyone claiming to know for certain that there is or is not a God is being arrogant. However I understand why there are anti-theists, religion has done some pretty terrible things in the name of its various gods.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by iamaperson

 

However I understand why there are anti-theists, religion has done some pretty terrible things in the name of its various gods.

I find NDE's interesting, but yes, through chemistry maybe it will be explained later, I was not saying though NDE is related to religion.

I fail to see what you state though, I don't think people are or were killing because of the religion, but rather because of the people. If there was no religion, there would still be murder and war. As a matter of fact, as far as I know, most religions are against murder, and other "wrong". It could even be that they were anti-theists who were murdering in the name of God in order to make religion a bad name, or then just normal people killing because of something else, and saying "God want's me to do this", God doesn't want you to do kill, but anyone can say God has told them to do so.

Originally posted by iamaperson

Originally posted by DontLegalizeDecriminalize
reply to post by iamaperson

 

Religion is without a doubt the most destructive part of humanity. It has started countless wars and ended millions of lives. There is absolutely no validity in any religion because they all basically cancel each other out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most or all religions state that you cannot worship another God or follow another religion? So therefore all of them are void.
Another aspect of religion that has always baffled me is the fact that your religion is based almost entirely on your geography. If you are born in the middle of Afghanistan, chances are that you are going to be raised under their religion. If you're born here in America to a family of caucasians, chances are you're going to be raised as a Christian or Catholic. While that's not necessarily the case, your parents are another major factor that shape your religious outlook. Being born into it almost forces you to become a part of it.
The final part of religion that I don't understand how any person of faith can overlook is the one simple question: Which religion is the right one? Just because I live in America does not mean that Christianity is the only one true religion. Whenever I ask somebody this question, I'm always told that "It's a question of your faith". Well I have no faith in blindly devoting my entire life to a religion, especially when I have no proof whatsoever that that religion has a factual basis to it.
So IMO, religion is basically a bunch of old guys in dresses brutally murdering each other and ceaselessly arguing over whose imaginary god is the right one to worship. I'm not saying there is no God, because I believe there is some sort of higher power, but my problem is which God to worship. I can't just blindly devote my life to the teachings of a religion because some dude who has probably molested more boys (yes I love to generalize) than I can imagine told me it's the right religion. A mans word simply is not enough for me, and I am honestly shocked that people can follow a religion without this thought crossing their mind. Until I have some spiritual awakening or whatever that tells me what religion to follow, I'm not just going to conform with the people around me to fit in.

Religion the most destructive part of society!!! Wow, if you can back this statement up, we must get rid off all religion, this sounds bad for religion, but good for our society and our future.

"There is absolutely no validity in any religion because they all basically cancel each other out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most or all religions state that you cannot worship another God or follow another religion? So therefore all of them are void." Hmm, or one is correct? Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void.

"Another aspect of religion that has always baffled me is the fact that your religion is based almost entirely on your geography" very good point, I have thought about that too, and since it was the caucasians whom made these big advances in globalization Christianity is so popular... Why were the caucasians the ones, that's one of the things that baffles me also.

So the point is that because no one has a good enough reason to choose a particular religion over another, we must get rid off religion? Thats what makes religion so bad, so destructive, not having proof? What?

"Hmm, or one is correct? Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void."

Ok, there is one religion that is correct. Which one is the right one to choose then? And how do you know that religion is the correct one and not any other?

"Correct me if I am wrong but do they not say that this is the only correct religion (pretty much most of them, right?) so therefore your statement is completely void."

That is literally exactly what I was trying to get across. Since every or most of religions all state that they are the only correct religion, that would mean that they contradict each other. What I said was that all or most religions say that this is the only correct God that you can worship, you cannot worship any other God but him because any other God would be incorrect. Makes sense? You basically replaced the word God with religion, and tried to turn that against me somehow as if you're some sort of cunning linguist.

"So the point is that because no one has a good enough reason to choose a particular religion over another, we must get rid off religion? Thats what makes religion so bad, so destructive, not having proof? What? "

No, you misinterpreted what I wrote, which is probably my fault for not explaining it better. The destructive part of religion is not the lack of proof, but the pointless wars and fighting that has occurred over time which were spent fighting over which lack-of-proof having religion is the right one. Does that make sense? You may have to reread that sentence a few times, because it's a little jumbled, but I think you'll understand.

"Religion the most destructive part of society!!! Wow, if you can back this statement up"

I think the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, the Rape of Nanking, and the many other utterly unbelievable acts of untold horrors (nice alliteration) back themselves up here