Place of His Sanctuary Cast Down

Originally posted by truthiron
(so It can not be historic)

And so the question is what is "the place of his sanctuary cast down"?

it sounds to me like an awakening of sorts, in which there is no sanctuary for a certain element any longer as it is cast down or out of ones host or being.

at first it sounded like Heaven on Earth to me...

I am not good enough to participate here really, I have never read this before so I do not know what leads up to this point in the Scripture.

I am curious now though

reply to post by truthiron


Well, to explain Daniel? Here goes.

Looking at the prophesies of Daniel along with Luke 21 and Matthew 24 I came up with the following conclusion.

The events of the temple desecration from the 2nd century BC simply did not fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 11. And here is the evidence from Daniel.

There are a number of references to the time of the end. The end of days. The end of years. The latter days. Etc. And as I pointed out before the time of the end was a far future event to the authors of Daniel, Hosea, and Genesis. Daniel 11 is plainly supposed to happen in the latter days.

Daniel 11.
6 And in the end of years
40 And at the time of the end

And look and Daniel 9-24 through 27.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Abomination of Desolation event happens in the middle of the 70th week. The 7 plus 62 weeks leave one week out of the 70. Daniel 11 is supposed to happen in the 70th week. It hasn't happened yet. So it and the Abomination is a future event.

Now if you look at the 2 prophesies of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 combined that is exactly what Jesus Christ is warning about in Matthew 24. That after a time he calls the times of the gentiles in Luke 21-24 he then states that a future abomination of desolation will stand in a future temple in Matthew 24-15.

The 70th week did not happen in the first century AD. Rather it is supposed to happen at the end of the times of the gentiles and before the curse of Malachi runs out. Assuming the curse started with the death of Jesus Christ approximately then 2000 years should be in the mid 2020's. Once the day of Jezreel starts the tribulations of the Apocalypse should be over. It is the last event of the Apocalypse.

The bible is like a large 3d jigsaw puzzle. In order to understand it properly involves finding and combining those jigsaw pieces to create the larger whole. To get the big picture.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

I am not good enough to participate here really,

That sounded good. Think about it a little and expand on that thought. What you think is interesting, whatever your take is on it.
Nobody really seems to know for sure. Look at some commentaries and they kind of slide over that little phrase like they don't know what to think of it.
You might be on the right track. Daniel talks about the king who worships fortifications and amasses gold and jewels to apply towards those fortifications. But no amount of fortification is going to stop God, like the Belshazzar story with the handwriting on the wall, The city walls of Babylon could not protect them against Persia if it was God's will that they failed them and were overthrown.

reply to post by ntech

There are a number of references to the time of the end. The end of days. The end of years. The latter days. Etc.

Here's another one:

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

There are indications in the New Testament that the Last Days were something they already were in, when it was written.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

 

I am not good enough to participate here really,

That sounded good. Think about it a little and expand on that thought.

I was thinking about the OP's opening statement (it could not be historic) or a timeline in other words, but after I started reading other comments about the Temple I began to remember that the Body was a temple too so I tried to think about it around that.

there is alot of stuff in the KJV where when I read it it sounds like it is speaking directly to the reader or about the reader but using places or events or other things to describe this. What I have wondered for a long time now is if Rev is historic meaning to take place in the future? I have heard alot of people claiming it is happening now or at some time it will come, but in the context of the name of that part of the bible revelation means to reveal... but is it revealing itself to the individual and that people experience this revelation or it is Revealing some time to come.

See that is a big mystery to me because alot of times I think the Bible is speaking directly to individuals about life and learning and also growing... spiritually. What if the temple was being rebuilt yes but inside of people and not in a physical location or place and time...

hence a living Book revealing something to the reader about themselves, but painting with several very wide and metaphorical brushes also.

It would seem that if one tries to live their life by the Truth and being honest ect, the world will hate you because of it, and will not know you when one actually goes out into it, as John has revealed to me when I read that section after Luke. Jesus did just that and look what they done to him, but the Truth is in the world and it is the light that can not be extinguished.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact
Cosmic Artifact and others reading this thread,

That we are the temple of the Holy Spirit is cetainly a truth, we read --

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This is a wide open subject "the PLACE of His Sanctuary cast down" and is taken too lightly like so many passages that we don't take time to contend for the full meaning. That is what this thread is about that we who will get into it will study a little deeper.

They may kill this old body but can't cast His Spirit from me. I'm aiming to hang on to Him with all my heart and soul and I think you are also as dedicated.

Being a Sabbath keeper it is upon me that the Sabbath may be involved in this statement . Those who don't regard Sabbath may not want to go any further with me on this. It seems His Spirit is driving me.

The one portrayed "casting down" is the one his "tale" took out a third of the angels and goes on to magnify himself equal to Christ the Prince of the Host.

Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

This brings my mind down to our time and the following verses portray it. It is Satan doing the casting down, not man. This is the time he, Satan magnifies himself. He hasn't done this yet.

2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

It is clear that "Wicked", Satan is revealed and is taken out at Christ's coming. Many do not realize Satan is to come and personate Jesus Christ, and as a matter of fact many Christians do not believe there is an actual Satan. They are going to see him in the form of the "great king" that many have been expecting and most will recieve him as such. Not Me!.

Where is man failing to "remember" about the most obvious display of his love to our God? We are counciled to Love Him with All Our Heart and Soul.

The place of His Sanctuary with us in time? I hang it in the air.

Truthiron.

reply to post by ntech
ntech,

I know well the interpretation you stand on. The prepondence of the rules of interpretation will not let me come to such a conclusion. The seventieth week was solidly 27AD to 34AD and can not be moved. His death in the middle year of that week is but one of the proofs, sacrifices and offerings ceased and the end of that week ended the time aloted to the Jews are more proofs. I'm afraid I can not be moved on that one.

I am more alone on the view I hold I realize but I don't run with the majority. What I see ties in too solid.

Time will tell and we don't have to agree but that doen't make you an enemy but a fellow searcher.

Truthiron.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

What if the temple was being rebuilt yes but inside of people and not in a physical location or place and time...

May be. What does John mean when he says that in the spirit he is taken to the temple?
For us to be a temple, we need to be holy. If the Spirit is working in us, making us holy, then that could be God building the temple.

reply to post by truthiron


some people could understand that Wicked the fallen star and his original mission he was on, and who he was trying to become and replace. Some may understand this wicked old serpent, where he first appeared and what he represented, also what he is trying to do, but we surely do not revere him as the truth.

So then must we show him love and kindness? We understand his knowledge and what he represents maybe, but what are we to do with him is my real question...

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
reply to post by truthiron

 

some people could understand that Wicked the fallen star and his original mission he was on, and who he was trying to become. Some may understand this wicked old serpent and what he is trying to do but we surely do not revere him as the truth. So then must we show him love and understanding?

For sure a no, no. When he was cast out he drew one third of the angels "stars" with him by his lies "tale"

He comes up and out of where he was cast and then personates Jesus and has almost the whole world decieved that he is. To expect this is to be forearmed to be alert and discerning. He will do miracles and will be dazziling but do not be decieved.

Truthiron.

Truthiron,
Hey, I just found this in my files, something I downloaded a while back, a PDF from www.maranathamedia.com.au which is a new (compared to Uriah Smith) commentary on Daniel called The Greatest of the Prophets by Mc Cready, who Prof. Were quotes in that book I linked to earlier.
I can give an excerpt from it where he discusses the text in question:

page 79 As for casting down the place of His sanctuary, everybody knows that Rome did this very thing. It utterly destroyed the city of Jerusalem and its temple, and the latter has never been rebuilt. Epiphanes did not destroy the temple; he defiled it, he deliberately desecrated it; but he did not injure its structure in the least. Hence he never did what this prophecy predicted.
In passing, it ought to be noted and proclaimed from the housetops that the futurist school of prophecy, in pushing this and all the many related and parallel predictions into the future, when (they say) these things will be performed by the coming antichrist, are thereby seeking to remove the brand which the Holy Ghost in prophecy has placed upon popery. Let the true follower of Christ take heed and act accordingly.
As I have already pointed out, the position here taken is that this symbol of the little horn represents Rome in its long total career, first as the pagan or imperial despotism, warring against the Jewish people and then the early Christians. And finally, extending down to our own day and into the perilous future, warring against the Christian church. The two despotisms have ruled from the same center, and the transition from the one to the other is more in name than in fact; for the latter form is a mere continuance of the other.

edit on 28-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by truthiron


I am not amazed... for the truth of all humankind is to show only love to one another so that we may live down here just as it is up there.

I will not even give him the acknowledgment of speaking his name !

it does not fool me...

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact
Cosmic Artifact,

Yes we are held by His Love and our Love for Him. To know Him is to Love Him.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron


I guess I should really read Daniel first, I was giving a first impression only looking at the texts you quoted in the opening post. It sounded to me like a person casting out evil from their person (which is a sanctuary of sorts for Satan) The use of the word "stamped" here in those 3 verses is a little confusing because I yet have to read but stamped is dualistic... meaning possibly imprinted or trampled.

I will look into it for sure, I didn't know anything was still contested so that makes it a mystery... everyone loves a good mystery so they say, atleast the right kind of a mystery at any rate.

I thought it would be interesting to take a look at the verses in the Septuagint to see if there is any difference.
I will quote from the NETS which is the New English Translation of the Septuagint, which is in PDF that can be downloaded from their web site.

9 And out of one of them sprang one strong horn, and it prevailed, and it struck against the south and against the east and against the north. 10 And it was raised unto the stars of the sky. And it was thrown down upon the earth from the stars and trodden by them until the commander in chief delivers the captives. And the mountains, which were from eternity, were overthrown on account of it and their place and sacrifice were taken away. And he put it to the ground, [upon the earth], and it prospered, and it emerged, and the sanctuary will be desolated. 12 And sins were on the offering, and justice was thrown to the ground, and it acted, and it prospered. 13 And I kept hearing another holy one speaking, and the other one said to the Phelmouni who was speaking, "How long will this vision continue: even the sacrifice, which has been taken away, and the sin of desolation that has been given and the sanctuaries will be desolated unto trampling?"

That's the Old Greek version. The Theodocian version is a little different:

9 And out of one of them came one strong horn, and it grew exceedingly great toward the south and toward the host. 10 And it became great all the way up to the host of heaven. And it fell upon the earth from the host and from the stars and trampled them under foot, 11 even until the commander in chief delivers the captives. And sacrifices were overthrown on account of it. And it emerged, and things were prosperous for it, and the sanctuary will be desolated. 12 And sin was given for an offering, and justice was thrown to the ground, and it acted, and it prospered. 13 And I heard one of the holy ones speaking, and one holy one said to the Phelmouni who was speaking, "For how long will this vision continue: the sacrifice, which has been taken away, and the sin of desolation that has been given and the sanctuary and the host will be trampled under foot?"

The later version supplanted the old version by the first or second century AD.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact
more] Comic Artifact,

"Stamped upon them" would indicate bringing about their demise. He decieved them by his "tale" to them and it so convincing them they became fellow rebellious ones also. They also became accusers of God. He has many, many of mankind in the same rut. They not only accuse God but accuse us who would be of Him and is known as the accuser. Men also accuse Christians of being evil.-

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

That hatred runs high and strong, remember the Prince of Glory was crucified. Then men don't realize there is a spirit that drives them. The Holy Spirit for good and the evil spirit hatred and destruction. Men just don't see it.-

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I encourage you in Him, our All in All.

Truthiron

reply to post by jmdewey60
jmdewey60,

Yes interresting and that "Phelmouni" there would be "certain saint" in the KJV and Youngs "wonderful numberer" and we know His name is Wonderful. Knowing the following is a revelation to anyone wanting to unravel this prophecy.- -

that certain saint. or, the numberer of secrets, or, the wonderful numberer. Heb. Palmoni. Jg 13:18; Isa 9:6; Mt 11:27; Lu 10:22; Joh 1:18

Read verses before and after of Jg 13:18, that is interresting too.

Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60
jmdewey60,

In answer, "page 79 As for casting down the place of His sanctuary, everybody knows that Rome did this very thing."

The statements here in Dan 8: indicates this not Rome but some the one who does magnify himself to be Christ. Also this vision falls after the Pope setting himself up as a vicar only. This vision began in 1844 to take place. This vision falls after, it is the "after part" after chapter 7: -

Da 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

The story that takes place is about what is going on over there now Iraq, Iran etc. The "players" in it are now. The USA is the "he goat" the "little horn" spoken of here is out of it. It was't Alexander the great. He is too far back. SDA's got the date right and later the event Sanctuary cleansed, that was given as extra.

The he goat comes across the face of the earth and touches not the ground, this leaves out past history players, we've been doing that for some time now waging war over there . The heads now have no kingly power, Re 13: the crowns are now on the horns. We can no longer put it all on the Papacy. This is not a historic prophecy.

The Question was "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?: The time, 2300 yrs., then from 1844 on is the time of the end. The Sanctuary to be cleansed at that time was extra info.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This isn't the church of Rome brought to view here.- -Satan is the one understanding dark sentences, in Eze he is said to be wiser than Daniel.

Da 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Da 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Da 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

This vision has been going on since 1844 and the Sanctuary was cleansed and our High Priest is yet ministering there, in the Heavenly of course. I can not be a historicist on this one. No, No Dan 8:19 states "last end".

Enough for now, I know I'm a loner but that's OK, I always have been.

There is some who will read and understand this. There is some others who hold this view.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron
Here's the phonetic version of the Hebrew for Daniel 8:13

va·'esh·me·'ah e·chad- ka·do·vsh me·dab·ber; vai·yo·mer e·chad ka·do·vsh
heard and another A holy speaking said and another one

lap·pal·mo·v·ni ham·dab·ber ad- ma·tai he·cha·zo·vn hat·ta·mid ve·hap·pe·sha
certain was speaking against How will the vision the regular the transgression

sho·mem, tet ve· ko·desh ve·tza·va mir·mas.
causes to allow the holy and the host tread -ing

I suppose the point of the above post is something about the Bible and how
we have it the way it is. If you were given a alphabet, a dictionary with some
limited definitions and a sometimes followed grammar, and a supposed
holy scripture in this long lost language with no other books surviving from
the period it was written to compare with, what would you think of these
verses? Not a whole lot. The premise is that at some long ago point when
there were living persons who had an oral tradition connected to the text,
met some smart people who could write good Greek. The joint effort
resulted in something understandable to the ordinary educated person
of the age. So, we have what is know popularly as the Septuagint
which is a term to explain how a Hebrew book is found to be in Greek.
I posted the English translation of the Greek version earlier. This one
of the Hebrew is to illustrate how the Greek is important for understanding
these passages in Daniel.