Place of His Sanctuary Cast Down, page 5

reply to post by truthiron

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Enough for now, I know I'm a loner but that's OK, I always have been.

That's OK and don't worry about anyone trying to beat you up over it. I'm still trying to figure out exactly where your point of departure is and what are the implications. Keep working at it and maybe I'll get it.
I've gotten to where I don't trust people in general unlimitedly, so I am not that stuck on one narrow interpretation specifically. I probably need to familiarize myself better with the issues.
I've recently developed an aversion to a lot precise year counting because of how people are using dates to support some really strange stuff. I don't think that is what you are doing exactly because all you seem to be saying is that there is still a treading down going on today, and that may be obvious. All the wost criminals seem to be getting very rich and controlling governments enough to prevent any prosecutions for their criminality. And we have a so-called religion which turns a blind eye on it all and instead turns the focus on stupid problems no one can do anything about anyway, like trying to figure out why some people are gay, or something.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truthiron

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Enough for now, I know I'm a loner but that's OK, I always have been.

That's OK and don't worry about anyone trying to beat you up over it. I'm still trying to figure out exactly where your point of departure is and what are the implications. Keep working at it and maybe I'll get it.
I've gotten to where I don't trust people in general unlimitedly, so I am not that stuck on one narrow interpretation specifically. I probably need to familiarize myself better with the issues.
I've recently developed an aversion to a lot precise year counting because of how people are using dates to support some really strange stuff. I don't think that is what you are doing exactly because all you seem to be saying is that there is still a treading down going on today, and that may be obvious. All the wost criminals seem to be getting very rich and controlling governments enough to prevent any prosecutions for their criminality. And we have a so-called religion which turns a blind eye on it all and instead turns the focus on stupid problems no one can do anything about anyway, like trying to figure out why some people are gay, or something.

You hold a great attitude. I put these understandings out a lot when I was still in the church and some would get vehement and I really had it up and down with one pastor. I took my membership off the rolls before they dis-fellowshiped me. Many have gotten dis-fellowshipped on the issue of prophecy alone. In the home churches later I was better recieved. Many of them came to similar understandings except for the ones tight on historicism. Charles Wheeling may now see this close to what I do but I do not know for sure.

On settings dates I'm not into that and the Jubilee Calender along with the dark clouds on the horizon we know the storm is upon us. I don't care a lot if the Jubilee Calender calculation is off several yrs. although i would doubt it being off more than one. Yahshua may shorten the time more than would be expected or 6,000 yrs may not be but the time in a general time area way. Jesus when here said only The Father knew. We are to discern from what is transpiring and from that see we are at the doors. Jesus could hit hard with words to them and here is one. - -

Lu 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

Certainly we are to know the nearness from the signs all around us.

What I've learned to do with all these prophecies is determine from the text the clues to when it is to start and end. Each of them is like a thought problem, if you miss part of it in the reckoning then you have yourself a wrong answer. The starting and ending time is the most important hermenuetic, rule, part, of them all and yet is the one least used. The prophecy that is to start 457 and go for 70 weeks of years can't go no further than 490 more yrs. down the road of time, period. I know you follow me there.

This prophecy of Dan 8: 1844 is the starting time, not the ending time. The church made it historic and that is a mistake. It can not be. The text won't hold it up. To get increaing light we must recieve the light given before more will be given.

This is the last end of God's furious wrath with sin, my paraphrase because of the meaning of indignation used there. The last part of the verse reads, -

"the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be". Dan 8:19

The Hebrew dictionary for this verses indignation is -
za`am zah'-am
from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

We notice "at the time appointed the end shall be" So we know there is a set time that is not known to any man, only God Himself.

Well gee I've rambled on a bit here and will leave it for now. I'm not one to like a long exposé myseff.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron
Are you linking 1844 as the beginning of sanctuary cleansing? And linking Sabbath restoration as a sanctuary(holy time in present space?). And that's what's still being trampled?

I saw a paper once, about 1987, summery of various positions presented at Glacier View en.wikipedia.org...

I don't remember who printed up the paper, but it listed various positions held by different people like D. M. Canright, A. F. Ballenger, W. W. Fletcher, W. W. Prescott, Louis R. Conradi, L. E. Froom and Raymond Cottrell. One of these also held the views that you also seem to. I don't remember which one it was though.

reply to post by truthiron

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I may have heard the man's name before but I did not know anything about him.
I did some reading up since your post. My advice would be to stay away from him.
I listen to conspiracy radio 24 hours a day sometimes and this man fits into the
flakiest sort with no credibility. I hear the type and have to turn it off when they
come on. They have some sort of game and that's all it is. Some suggestion
as if they know something but mostly that everyone else is wrong. A big waste
of time giving them what they want, which is attention.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by truthiron
Are you linking 1844 as the beginning of sanctuary cleansing? And linking Sabbath restoration as a sanctuary(holy time in present space?). And that's what's still being trampled?

I saw a paper once, about 1987, summery of various positions presented at Glacier View en.wikipedia.org...

I don't remember who printed up the paper, but it listed various positions held by different people like D. M. Canright, A. F. Ballenger, W. W. Fletcher, W. W. Prescott, Louis R. Conradi, L. E. Froom and Raymond Cottrell. One of these also held the views that you also seem to. I don't remember which one it was though.

Yes I am, 1844 will stand the test of time. The date for the counting was the decree of 457BC to restore and build Jerrusalem. The 2300 days as years reached to that date. The 70 weeks of years where broken off the 2300. The KJV uses the word determined but Hebrew means cut off from. We must always search for the starting time and ending time of all apocalyptic prophecies. Both Dan. 8 and 9 start from 457. The math is simple, when you would start to count down from 457 to 456 is one yr. and so you subtract 456 from 2300 and your date is 1844. The 70 wks. of yrs. subtract 456 from 490 takes you to the yr.AD 34 the time the Jews were cut off and the Gentiles graffed in.

Those men you mention above where in the early SDA movement and some were false teachers and some were true to what they had come to reform on at that time. That Glacier View was viewed by many to be a step backwards I believe. What I find is the scroll of Dan 8 was only opened to them that the Sanctuary was cleansed at that time. They then viewed the prophecy to be historic.

It was actually the right time for the Sanctuary to be cleansed but at the same time the begining of the time of the end as the Angel revealed to Daniel the vision was for.

Some have trouble with the math on this as you count down in yrs. from 457 to 1 and then 1 again counting up to our date.

In a way one could say the Sabbath is being trampled but is not cast down yet. In respect it is the place in time He too goes to Church, so to speak, and then tabernacles with us and we with Him. He stops every seventh day and all heaven together and earth of those who will come. He has always met with angels and men on the Sabbath. Enoch makes that very clear. The Sabbath was kept in Heaven and then into earth and in sync.

The first year on earth was a Jubilee year, a new begining and hasn't stopped since and will continue to the consumation and beyond. God established the seven day week and the Jubilee week of yrs. calender before eath and carried into earth. The book of Jubilees reveals much and Enoch cinches it.

The Sabbath never was lost, there always have been the faithful that have not missed a beat on it. The seven day week has always been observed by all up through time although many never kept Sabbath as Holy. It dont need restoration, men just need to regard it that don't.

The personation of Christ by Satan will be when that happens. He will command all to keep his day. Sabbath keeping will then reap the death penalty.

You are right if you say that is not a popular opinion. Christ wan't even popular among His own people so what?

I would like to live long enough to see it all unfold.

All for now. Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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jmdewey60,

I know cw was way off for a long time and some say he put away that 1844 was false is what i've heard and his view of connecting Dan. 8 to events in the m east is where he may be on. I don't condem him and I don't follow him or his enemies. Prophecy is one subject that gets a lot of controversy. Each is responsible for his view.

Thanks Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron
From recent statements I've read from the pope and interfaith councils, I get the impression that decrees, if passed today, would honor what they call 'the great religions'. So that Jews would keep the sabbath, Christians would keep the day of the sun, and maybe Christian Zionists would be allowed to keep the sabbath. It would be a categorizing with no respect for 'minor, insignificant faiths' only the 'great ones.'

Right of conscience isn't valued in empires desperate to survive, which is what we are faced with. God is greater than empire. God be with you and strengthen you in the knowledge of Jesus.

reply to post by truthiron

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The book of Jubilees reveals much and Enoch cinches it.

I take things like these as examples of certain types of literature and a study in
pop mythology for their times. Not as an authority with the weight of God's word.
It seems to me that taking it as such really dilutes the concept of having a Bible
and something that can be taken as authoritative, when you accept anything
that is pen put to paper.
Another thing you may want to look into is how the word "sabbath" had a generic
use back in the first century which was just time keeping and meant a week.
A week is something biological and specific to humans and is a natural time
interval having to do with things like how the mind recycles information and
how much rest a person needs from work. A righteous God would recognise
this and have a weekly system tailor fit for the people who were to have to
conform to that structure.
When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath."
he knew what he was talking about. Another thing he said was, "My Father
works continually and so do I." A spirit being such as an angel would not need
to be taking days off. God took time at the end of a week of creation to enjoy
what he made. He did not have to have a creation but it was something
enjoyable once it was created. People have to work so they can have a home
and food to eat, but that is not the purpose for life, but something that supports
life. we can stop momentarily and just enjoy life for what it is and how life has
an intrinsic value beyond just the work we have to do, in it.
Where the Mark of the Beast comes into the Sabbath issue is that God did
create the law that we should live by and we should recognise Him as the
authority behind the law. Satan wants to be our authority so makes a counterfeit
law and wants us to honor that, and so recognise his claim. I have to think that
the Sabbath is a good thing and if we were to want to be good ourselves, we
would follow its advice and give those who are affected by our decisions to
be able to enjoy the benefits of God's law. If we were to deny our workers a
Sabbath, then God will hold us accountable. So there are morality questions
involved, towards others in how we treat them, and towards God in recognizing
who God is. Satan's system is morally negative by not being good for people
in the long term, and puts itself above the true god. God's Sabbath vs. Satan's
counterfeit sabbath is a sign and a pledge that is an indication of our loyalty.
Just as a quality in itself, probably one day would be as good as another, to
serve the biological purpose. But discarding the truthful and lawful for another
is going down a road that leads to destruction. That fact may not be so readily
apparent to the average person but it is to the satanic powers who study
human psychology and know how to use subtlety to take down an entire
population.

reply to post by pthena

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pthena,

When Satan comes and makes a visible appearance among men which he will do without any doubt he will show no respect for Jews or any. The rule of the world will be tyranical. He will be a vicious king. He is a spirit being so he'll take on a body and that is what will be destroyed at Christ's coming. We will have to watch and see this thing unfold and hang in there. These last few "miles" are going to be "BUMPY".

Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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jmdewey60,

More has come to me on CW and I have a later cd he put out around here somewhere, will hunt it up and let you know what is up with him. There are many around here that found him ok. I know he printed out many, many EGW books and spread them worldwide by the millions. There isn't a man alive that has spread as many GC books as he has under the title America in prophecy. Many SDA's still in the church here still support him even though the denom. hates him as they, these people want those books spread. Many believe they have to be in the church to be saved, it is the "ship" that goes through.

In his debates with the leaders that had him ousted I think he laid them flat so to speak as he had better answers than they did. He is no dummy and was not put out in righteousness. I suppose you know of John Osborn, hope I got his name right, well he went cowered down back into the structure with his tail between his legs as he needed their lawyers to help him out of the money mess he got into. He is the rascal.

We must all draw our own opinions on these things and for me I have had to step out of the theology of the structure. SDA's where the last true protestants but are no more. This last apostasy has more or less come down from Rome and they have fallen into a one world together religion..

On this subject that I have brought up for now if you are guided by them you can not be agreeable very far I'm sure. I have gotten completley away from what has been promoted on prophecy as I find the context is too badly missed by what is made of them in so many cases.

Just lay out your reasoning of disagreements and I consider them. I think you can agree we see how these things can be twisted so far from the truth it is unbelieveable.

Saturday is Sabbath in many languages around the world and means seventh. No God and the Holy angels do not get tired but all do keep Sabbath and He does too with all who come. Sure He still holds all things in place, doesn't let if crash and ceases more creation for that period as He did at our earths creation. Does He change? As "His custom was" Christ kept the Sabbath, since He being the eternal one, from all eternity.

We keep looking and learning every day or we should if we are not.

Blessings and peace be to you.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron

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John Osbourn was in Bonita Springs years ago which is not that far from me.
I knew someone back then who got a satellite dish to watch him and I went
with them once to the church to listen to him. I never got what he was about
and had no interest especially to try to figure it out. I think some people think
of preaching as a form of entertainment and someone strikes their fancy or
makes them feel a certain way and to some people that is the holy spirit.
I am a little more discriminating and if I can't feel inspired by the dry text of
their message, I am not about to get enthused by the theatrics, that's just
plain stupid and a bunch of cows.

reply to post by truthiron

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We keep looking and learning every day or we should if we are not.

I probably am like a lot of people and had a lot of questions when I was younger and did a bunch of research until I could reach some conclusions. Then I became a little complacent, thinking there was not much else to do. Lately I use other people's questions to kind of stir me up to do more research into the Bible. That's where this forum fits in and this is about a wide a spectrum of interests and beliefs and questions, as can be found. So I don't have an aversion to hashing things out with people and it is usually the other person who gives up. I've slugged it out with atheists plenty but they got to where they didn't want to hear it any more. Some people only want to change others to conform to themselves. I believe that people are held responsible for what they try to teach others. But I also believe people will be held responsible for sitting and not doing anything.

reply to post by truthiron

In reply of the book "Jubilees" it is known also by "Apocalypse of Moses" and also "Little Genesis" It is far more in detail of those first things of earth and agrees 100% with the Bible. I wanted it to find if the Jubilee cycles did start with yr. one of creation and that is revealed clearly. Things like the flood ended the last year of a 49 yr.cycle then a new beginning, trully very fitting. I think it may have been the 28'th Jubilee. I'd have to hunt up the account to make sure.

I had known the Jubilee calender was introduced in the Bible for yrs. and suspicioned it was always in effect. It is one of those things that wasn't written of untill God moved them out of Egypt.

I read the portion on the Sabbath in Book of Jubilees Chapter 2 It does seem to agree with Old Testament views, and even EGW as for being eternal.

. And He gave us a great sign, the Sabbath day, 5 that we should work six days, but keep Sabbath on the seventh day from all work. 18. And all the angels of the presence, and all the angels of sanctification, these two great classes--He hath hidden us to keep the Sabbath with Him in heaven and on earth. 19. And He said unto us: "Behold, I will separate unto Myself a people from among all the peoples, and these will keep the Sabbath day, and I will sanctify them unto Myself as My people, and will bless them; as I have sanctified the Sabbath day and do sanctify (it) unto Myself, even so shall I bless them, and they will be My people and I shall be their God. 20 . And I have chosen the seed of Jacob 3 from amongst all that I have seen, and have written him down as My firstborn son, 4 and have sanctified him unto Myself for ever and ever; and I will teach them the Sabbath day, that they may keep Sabbath thereon from all work."
. . .
31. And the Creator of all things blessed it, but He did not sanctify all peoples and nations to keep Sabbath thereon, but Israel alone: them alone He permitted to eat and drink and to keep Sabbath thereon on the earth.

Note the Israel alone, which I bolded.

NIV
ISA 56:6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant--

ISA 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations."

ISA 56:8 The Sovereign LORD declares--
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
"I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered."

The discourse of Paul in Romans 11 concerns Israel. It seems quite consistent to me that any Christian who is a Christian for the reason of being part of Israel, because of fulfillment of promises to Israel, should keep the sabbath.

You should consider yourself a 'spiritual Israelite' rather than a 'spiritual Jew'. I find that Jesus sought out the lost sheep of Israel. He did not come to reform Judaism, which can be considered an aberration, but rather he came for Israel.

The Book of Jubilees seems to have been read widely among Israelites up until Jamnia excluded it, and Christians up until the Roman church excluded it. The book of Hebrews does seem to be written by someone highly familiar with it.

As for going back and forth in prophecy, if you go back from Daniel 12 into the later portions of chapter 11, you can see the desperation of an empire invading many lands and being opposed and lashing out against the eternal covenant. At times this seems to me very descriptive of what's happening these days.

Today's Democracy Now show has a pretty good segment: Allan Nairn: As U.S. Loses Its Global Economic Edge, Its "One Clear Comparative Advantage is in Killing, and It’s Using It"

reply to post by pthena
[more) pthena,

Just a little of your last reply -

"The discourse of Paul in Romans 11 concerns Israel. It seems quite consistent to me that any Christian who is a Christian for the reason of being part of Israel, because of fulfillment of promises to Israel, should keep the sabbath.

You should consider yourself a 'spiritual Israelite' rather than a 'spiritual Jew'. I find that Jesus sought out the lost sheep of Israel. He did not come to reform Judaism, which can be considered an aberration, but rather he came for Israel.

The Book of Jubilees seems to have been read widely among Israelites up until Jamnia excluded it, and Christians up until the Roman church excluded it. The book of Hebrews does seem to be written by someone highly familiar with it.

As for going back and forth in prophecy, if you go back from Daniel 12 into the later portions of chapter 11, you can see the desperation of an empire invading many lands and being opposed and lashing out against the eternal covenant. At times this seems to me very descriptive of what's happening these days."

In Reply,
Whichever means one of God's people is fine and I think both expressions do but I use the one I did because of Paul's statement, any way this is the one come to mind.

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I find that Dan. 11 has a lot for our time, at least from verse 30 to the end. It adds to what we are looking into.

Another book that gives a lot of basis to understanding things is "Secrets of Enoch". I presently don't have it but read it from a website where it is posted. It is a small book but loaded with pieces that help to see deeper.

We know God does not change or the thing that has gone out of His mouth and "IF" He did change the Sabbath day He would have changed the commandment. It will remain that recurring seventh day throughout all eternity. The trouble isn't the Word of God isn't clear it is man's refusal to believe it as it reads. If the translation is faulty one only needs to go to the Hebrew Greek dictionary to check it out.

The day is coming when it is revealed how perfect it is, the translation and the manuscript they streamed from. The KJV I believe uses the tested ones found not changed in any way. No it is not a perfect translation but none are better.

The books of Enoch some of those words are brought down as Enoch had spoken them in the New Testament also.

We are certainly living in the day some of those old prophets wanted to see but Amos tells us not to desire it and geves his reasons. Amos 5:18 but the whole chap.. is a good read.

He has shown us the only way.

We who love Him will keep looking to Him.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by ACTS 2:38

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ACTS 2:38,

Wondering if you think it will be rebuilt. I know some do. I think if it is it'll have to be fast. Prophecy is seen in many many ways and I think God only meant it in one way. So many of us work at it.

Look for the way you find it, the Bible interprets it's self I would say is a good way and study it out to see If you can agree.

Searching always for the truth.

Truthiron.

www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org...

Que. What is the connection between the measuring of the temple in Ezekiel 40 and Israel becoming a nation, aside from there being 1260 years plus 1260 years?

Ans. The prophecy of Ezekiel 36 and 37 about the return of Israel to her own land flows naturally into the subject of the rebuilding of the temple in Ezekiel 40. Simply put, Israel is not fully restored until God Himself sits within His temple in Jerusalem. Thus, there needs to be a temple. The temple is the climax of a restored Israel. Note the last verses of Ezekiel 37.

Some one with a much better answer then I.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38

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ACTS 2:38,

You reply,-- ". The temple is the climax of a restored Israel. Note the last verses of Ezekiel 37."

I'm of the opinion that that one was completed and destroyed and the wailing wall still remains.

When God left it when Jesus was crucified the conditions that led to that leaving it desolate have not changed with them. They are still the same heart and mind. That is the reason they were cut off and the Gentiles Graffed in. The next temple I believe is already built and is waiting in Heaven. It is brought down at the second resurrection and we see this done in Zechariah 14. A physical temple for those Jews in present day Israel before the consummation would make no sense to me.

Why where they rejected? Have they changed to come back into the grace of God?

Can Israel be restored on this earth and not come to recognize the Messiah?

Yes they can come and be Graffed back in but must recieve the One they rejected first.

The place of His Sanctuary cast down is no earthly temple to me and it is to be at the very end. It is done by the one who magnifies himself to be Christ and that will be done by Satan who personates Jesus.

If they are going to rebuild any temple they better be getting with it fast and forget wars with Iran and neighbors. They may be setting up their own annilhilation. They may be setting up the last war instead.

I really do not like to get into the aspect of this you bring up as this is an extremely volatile one.

Time will unravel this mystery. Really the time is very short now.

Truthiron.

reply to post by ACTS 2:38

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. . .Israel becoming a nation...

So, do you think that a bunch of Sabbethaian, atheist communist secular Jews declaring themselves a state and then calling it Israel, as fulfilment of prophecy? That's weird, if you do.
If you need to know what a Sabbethaian Jew is, look up "Jewish Messiah claimants" in Wikipedia. Scoll down to Seventhteenth Century and there is a drawing of Shabbatai Tzvi in 1665.

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