Place of His Sanctuary Cast Down

This is a question as to what other Christians believe this means, since Daniel is told. -

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Keep in mind this whole vision is about "the time of the end", so It can not be historic.

And so the question is what is "the place of his sanctuary cast down"?

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Comment on verse 11 all of the points as you see it if you wish. Verses 17,19 above are to establish the time for this vision to occur.

Truthiron.

Perhaps the "end" referred to is not the end of time, but the end of the age, presaging the destruction of the Temple in 70AD and the end of repeated sacrifices. No need for daily sacrifice when Christ would suffice.

reply to post by adjensen
adjensen,

That "last end of the indignation" in verse 19 has to be the utter end I am thinking. And the full meaning of "indignation" used there is extremely strong.

I am concerned that the time of the end implied is just that and many have not come to grips with that and make an application before the actual "time of the end". "last end" there there stated is the troubling point.

I may comment more later.

Truthiron.

I would have to think it means Rome.
It talks about an earlier beast which would have been
Alexander the Great and he dies and the four kingdoms
arise from his empire. One of the four quarters of the
Greek empire becomes the Roman Empire which ends
up doing things like crucifying Jesus and destroying
the temple in Jerusalem.
That is not the end of it and that is the prelude that
identifies the character in the play of history.
The final act is the outrage where Rome impersonates
the real prince who it killed earlier in another guise.
It claims for itself that which rightfully belongs to
the Prince of Heaven. Once this power gains sway
over all the earth, then history as we know it ends.

reply to post by truthiron

. . .and make an application before the actual "time of the end".

Don't be confused.
Do you think that the popular interpretation would be the correct one?
Really?
Like go to Barnes & Noble and on the end cap bestseller shelf with a nice
colorful eye-catching dust cover?
The TRUTH!!!!
Right there for everyone to see, Satan's final deception?
No.
That itself is the deception.
The truth is in a nondescript cover back in a closet shelf collecting dust
that just seems so not "with it". No glamour, no blockbuster movie.

reply to post by jmdewey60
jmdewey60,

Yes the times are divided into four kingdoms and I too find Rome is the begining and plays a great part to the end.

So this you bring up is another thought that adds to that "last end" of Dan. 8:19 is the final of this fourth kingdom. Also In verse one of Dan. 8 it is revealed this is the part "after" that which was given before, chapter 7. There the fourth kingdom is brought to light.

Another reason to not take Dan. 8 Historic. A very good point.

Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60
jmdewey60,

You ask.- "Do you think that the popular interpretation would be the correct one?"

No I do not. That is the reason I asked the question. Some I find has come to pass but the final seems to be at hand. They need a solid starting point to start it and they don't have it. That is given then in chapter 9.

I'm looking to find peoples reasons.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron

This is a question as to what other Christians believe this means,

I think that you should open the discussion up to more than Christians. By the nature of who Daniel was, Dan 1:3-6 Young intelligent, quick learners, from among the royal and noble families of Israel, to be taught the language and literature of the empire, then become civil servants of the king and empire.

Daniel then should be viewed as the liaison between Israelite and world empire, between the gods of Israel and the gods of the other peoples of the world.

Should I disregard this piece of literature purporting to be a secret which is now leaked, merely because I don't happen to be a Christian? Am I excluded from candidacy of the wise, who may understand? Dan 12:9-10 Condemned to the status of wicked, who can only remain wicked and excluded from understanding because I am not a Christian?

A question: Should I be a Christian because I am of European descent? By imperial decree brought by force of arms? At what time is it correct to bow down to the god decreed by empire? King Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged the god of Daniel as God of gods and the Lord of kings. Dan 2:47 Then he set up an image and required the whole world to bow down upon pain of execution. Dan 3 Should I reason to myself, "The king had things revealed to him by divine agency, therefore his decrees about what god to worship must be correct, and the only way to avoid hell fire?" Should I bow to the image?

But wait, there's more! Nebuchadnezzar was further enlightened by seeing the condemned to hell come out unharmed. So now, he must really understand! What does he command now?

DA 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, "Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king's command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. 29 Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way."

Should I follow this decree, based upon further revelation as it is, and kill those who speak against the god of S,M,&A and demolish their homes? That's got to be the correct course of action! Is it?

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

Shaman, magick and Dan. I don't think were on the same page. However I don't mind the comments of true believers in the Bible. But I would be perplexed that if they were, old and new testament alike, how they would not be Christian.

If I saw that replies were too far away from the topic I may just make a general reply and let it go at that. We just have too many want to lead it off in rants and troll a threads topic.

I want contribution to the subject is all. Try what you feel is a worthy comment and we'll consider it of course.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron



Consider what is being offered in the vision, and they are the personalities of a son of man: the one who is defeated in truth and, the one who overcomes by visions of truth. It would seem those who seek God find Him. And to hope in God is a human truth. To keep commandments given by God would seem like worship, and these would be kept in the most holy of places, most likely inside our hearts. It would also seem this temple would be the prime suspect for reason of attack by that which does not wish to submit to the unknowing. This is pride I imagine since what I have only gathered in all my time here is I really know nothing about anything except the names in which I have given their time(s).

So I will follow my first love, honestly. And by admitting the truth, about just who I really am to myself, and others - I become perfect, because no lie is found in something that no man calls untrue. So by faith, close to a kingdom I reside outside of, I knock - and what I ask I receive, like Daniel, strength. And by admission of what can be transformed about myself, but beyond my power in knowledge to do so - I become no wiser a child, but rest now in a new kingdom, One I used to hope for, and now find a peace in, eternally.

reply to post by KeepUptheMATRIXing
KeepJUptheMATRIXing,

You are right, we are all learners at His feet and want to be forever. For now His Word is that school. You I see are very sincere and peace is the conquest and we have it now as we find that rest in Him.

As of now I'm pressing on this prophecy of Dan. 8.

Some future history before us revealed.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron

Shaman, magick and Dan. I don't think were on the same page.

I was merely establishing a reason for joining. Daniel interceded for all the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers, and astrologers, who he then referred to as wise men(Dan 2:2,12, 24). If Daniel hasn't written us off, then maybe there is some hope for us.

I know that Christians generally regard each portion of the Bible as of equal authority. I don't. I just may consider the god of Daniel as quite a different person than the god of Ezra. I have my reasons.

The first mention of a sanctuary, at least in NIV is in the Song of Moses.

EX 15:17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain of your inheritance--
the place, O LORD, you made for your dwelling,
the sanctuary, O Lord, your hands established.

This song was sung before even a tent was made for the god as a sanctuary. Not man made, but on a mountain.
If that mountain was brought down than so would that sancuary.

In Daniel's prayer of sin confession he mentions what could be taken as a man-made sanctuary, namely the temple in Jerusalem.

DA 9:17 "Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy.

It could be quite confusing to see and hear about a sanctuary brought down in the future when what would be considered the sanctuary is already desolate.

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

Some today if believing the "the place of His Sanctuary cast down" may refer to their church, denomination and that they are in apostasy. But the fact that none feel that way about their church or denomination it wouldn't be any of them, that would have to come from discenters of the apostasy that has come in. I don't think I could come to that conclusion as it comes from one aspiring to be egual to the Prince of the Host, our Redeemer and then by transgression takes away the daily and the place of His Sanctuary.

This isn't happening in olden times but is to happen I find in our time. Our Redeemer is the High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary now "daily" ministering in our behalf. I can easily see when Satan comes on the scene personating the Redeemer that this would be the ultimate transgression and then for this reason Our High Priest stands up and the "daily" ministering would cease. Considerable teaching is needed to see into it deeply The verse - KJV -

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

So I've posed the question what is the "place of His Sanctuary cast down"

I have a valid idea I feel but I want to see if any have come to see it also.

I use only the KJV only and I can not take out any part of it as if I can take out what I choose then all have the same right. It has to be all or none. We could never get anywhere if we each picked and chose what we liked.

The new testament is just as valid as the old because it is a fulfillment of it, those services and the blood sacrifices all pointe to the true Lambs blood that only could suffice to atone.

I leave it there for now.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron
I get the impression that this isn't a stand alone thread, but rather a branch-off from some other thread.

"the place of His Sanctuary cast down" may refer to their church, denomination and that they are in apostasy.

Is your concern primarily a denominational issue? Someone says, "our church was supposed to be the repository of truth. We have fallen into apostasy!" Then someone else says, "No, it was apostates who snuck in that have caused our fall!"

This isn't happening in olden times but is to happen I find in our time. Our Redeemer is the High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary now "daily" ministering in our behalf. I can easily see when Satan comes on the scene personating the Redeemer that this would be the ultimate transgression and then for this reason Our High Priest stands up and the "daily" ministering would cease.

You assume that the event of "standing up" Daniel 12:1 is so climactic that it couldn't have happened in the last generation or in the one before that. To you it is in fact the "close of probation", the end of judgment and beginning of "the time of trouble, such as never was".

HEB 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

That footstool reference then, refers to Psalm 110.

PS 110:5 The Lord is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.

PS 110:6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

That does sound like something that couldn't easily be ignored or pass some one's notice.
This all gets rather involved.
3 sanctuaries, one on a mountain not made by hands, one made by hands some distance away from Zion,(I don't know how far Zion is from the temple mount, but it isn't the same thing), and now heaven itself as the sanctuary.

A fake could access any of these, if you count projections in the sky. Interesting dilemma you have here. I'm beginning to think that KeepUptheMATRIXing may just have a simpler approach.

I didn't get to the final phase of development of Nebuchadnezzar, he was finally humbled so far as to become a beast. Daniel Chapter 4. After he was restored to sanity he did not issue any decrees, he merely gave his testimony:

37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

That sounds to me like what Jesus talked about. Childlike entry.

Daniel is like a new Moses. From the people, trained in the latest languages and lore, yet humble. Admitting always his lack of understanding. So humble a man as to learn the names of angels and know them as servants of the Most High and of the nations, as princes even given charge of the individual nations.

Contrast that with Moses. An angel says, "I am Yahweh. But you people are too wicked for me to hang with, most likely, I'd kill you, so I'll send my angel Yahweh instead." Moses didn't get to learn the names of these angels.

I recomend reading Middle East Ferments by Louis F. Were
That can be found as a OCR of the book at Scribd
www.scribd.com...
If you are super careful, you can copy it one page at a time and
save it on a text document for easier reading or printing.
He discuses these ideas about the destroyed sanctuary.

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

It is not a denominational issue with me as I am not of any one of them as I have not a lot in common with the creed systems each has built that will not allow continual reform.

I have gave some on this in a reply or two but some time back on a Disraeli thread if I remember right. I'm short on words here at typing out things as I am not a prolific typer. The fingers are too numb and don't follow well the letters I want to show. So it is slow.

To get to the starting time of this prophecy and of Dan. chapter 9 one must read into chap. 9 and then we find it all starts at the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusaleum. That date has to be 457 BC and since it is a "time" prophecy it is reckoned by the Jubilee calender, weeks of years calender. Atter each 49 the 50'th being the first year of the next cycle is a Jubilee, a time of new beginnings and low and behold 457 is a new beginning year.

OK we notice in Dan. 9 that the 70 weeks then alotted to the Jews to finish the transgression are cut off from the whole which is 2300 yrs. I remember now the reply I made earlier where to show them Christ, Yahshua died and fulfilled that 70 weeks in the middle of that 70'th wk. but they want to drag that 70'th way on apart from the 69'th and that is a no, no. Can not be But that is another story.

The case being here and now on the 2300 years is this is to bring us to the starting point of the Dan. 8 Prophecy and I am one of the very few who see this, so I am kind of a loner. And Palmoni, Really Yahshua gave them a little more than was asked. He answered 2300 days and then added the Sanctuary would be cleansed. The SDA's had reasoned this out correctly on the time but the event they had wrong and it cost them embarassment. What is amazing is they did day equals a yr. and didn't realize to use the Jubilee calender. He began His High Priestly Ministry at that time. Won't explain further on that now, a long explanation is needed.

The main thing for now is to realize this is the date at the end of the 2300 yrs. to start the long "time of the end" the angel tells Dan. this vision is about. The date is 1844 and to us it is a long time. Running the Jubilee calender forward and back to creation we can know I find within a yr. the age of earth since day one of making it habitable for man. 2015 and possibe 2'1/2 mos. into 2011 is 6,000 yrs. So 1844 from 2015 would make this time of the end in the area of 171 yrs. and He says the time will be shortened for the "elect's" sake. You now know we are close that's all.

From reading and understanding Rev. chapter 13 I find it is Satan that causes the place of His, Yahshua's Sanctuary to be cast down and I do not believe this will be until he does come personating Christ and makes a law or enforcment that causes that. The thing to wonder of here is where would you find in all the apostate structures, churches of today His Sanctuary. I say structures because it is a building of man's own cobbling. I am thinking it has something to do with the refusal to recognize and be obedient to all the commandments. The law of love today is hated and it is fulfilled only by love. To hate it then is to trap one's self in disobedience. They want to say that law was abolished, no no it is established in love to Him and fulfilled when we have our first and greatest love to Him. It is the hearts desire as it is His. That's how He fulfilled it, His love fulfilled it.

Will go for now.

Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60
jmdewey60,

I'm not sure but what I've either listend to some of Louis Weres dicourses or been to one but I am familiar with him. For me to read much into where he is presently standing I would have to paste and copy to my word precessor and enlarge it. The small font is not for my old eyes. He no doubt has been stateside and I bet he probably is a discenter like Trefz and many more that stood up.

When it comes to Dan. 8, I can only go with them for a ways in any that I have found so far. They make it all historic except Christ's second coming. The Papacy is the beast to them and I find they are but "one" of the heads and that the heads no longer have the crowns, king status. The Papacy I find was the sixth head to come up. The ten "horns" now are kings and rule the world.

This question I'm posing now I'm rather sure has something to do with the Sabbath. Have you any thoughts youself on the question. Many may not agree with either of us, are we not all learners?

Catch what I've replied above to see where I've come to so far.

Truthiron.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Thanks, you've mentioned the book before. When I opened it, I got pages 1-35.

Forward page 2
“ have been shown that many who profess to have a knowledge of present truth, know not what they believe. They do not understand the evidences of their faith. They have no just appreciation of the work for the present time. When the time of trial shall come, there are men who are now preaching to others, who will find, upon examining the positions they hold, that there are many things for which they can give no satisfactory reason. Until thus tested, they knew not their great ignorance . . . And there are many in the church who ... will be surprised to see how confused are their ideas of what they accepted as truth” (5T. 707 -see also 5T. 463)."

That does seem to be a fairly stern warning.

Is a facebook account required in order to download scribd documents? I don't have any interest in Facebook.

reply to post by truthiron

It is not a denominational issue with me as I am not of any one of them as I have not a lot in common with the creed systems each has built that will not allow continual reform.

But you do have a creed system, such as "Every section of the Bible is of equal authority". That's part of your creed.

OK we notice in Dan. 9 that the 70 weeks then alotted to the Jews to finish the transgression are cut off from the whole which is 2300 yrs. I remember now the reply I made earlier where to show them Christ, Yahshua died and fulfilled that 70 weeks in the middle of that 70'th wk. but they want to drag that 70'th way on apart from the 69'th and that is a no, no.

This does get to the heart of the issue. Back in circa 1974, an SDA lady told me about a Bible study she was having with a Dispensationalist. She seemed to be almost in a prophetic state when she said, "That's where the great error will come from." That's a paraphrase as I can't remember the exact words she used. As far as I can tell, she was right on. Personally, I am convinced that Christian Zionism is the anti-Christ, which of course comes out of radical dispensationalist teaching.

The main thing for now is to realize this is the date at the end of the 2300 yrs. to start the long "time of the end" the angel tells Dan. this vision is about. The date is 1844 and to us it is a long time. Running the Jubilee calender forward and back to creation we can know I find within a yr. the age of earth since day one of making it habitable for man. 2015 and possibe 2'1/2 mos. into 2011 is 6,000 yrs. So 1844 from 2015 would make this time of the end in the area of 171 yrs. and He says the time will be shortened for the "elect's" sake. You now know we are close that's all.

I take it that going back to Adam's awakening is your own contribution. Who is Palmoni?

where would you find in all the apostate structures, churches of today His Sanctuary. I say structures because it is a building of man's own cobbling.

Right in the Zionist Christian commitment to having the temple rebuilt in Jerusalem, specifically for the anti-christ. They believe it's for the anti-christ, they work to have it built. That seems rather blatant to me.

To paraphrase Jesus, "This mountain, that mountain? Forget about it. The Father seeks those who worship in spirit and in truth." John 4

The law of love today is hated and it is fulfilled only by love. To hate it then is to trap one's self in disobedience. They want to say that law was abolished, no no it is established in love to Him and fulfilled when we have our first and greatest love to Him.

The law of love predates the 10 Commandments considerably. Before any age God loved us, else we wouldn't have come to be. "They want to say" yet they hold the 10 Commandments themselves up as almost an idol. The true law of love is before days came to be, before fathers and mothers came to be, before there were neighbors or possessions to covet or steal. The 10 Commandments are a temporary guide, they are not the eternal law.

reply to post by truthiron


Actually Daniel answers the question for you. Take a look at Daniel 12.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The time of the end was a distant time to Daniel. Also there is another reference to the time of the end in Genesis 48 and 49 as well.

Genesis 49.
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

According to the prophesies the offspring of Israel was to become a multitude of nations. So while we are not there yet it would seem that we're getting close.

And if you want to get really specific I could point you at the book of Hosea. And the prophesy of 6-2.