Place of His Sanctuary Cast Down

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I'm talking about a rebuilding of a future temple.
Anything on that?

I have heard this periodically from those who say that it is a part of the End Times (whether preceding the Tribulation or part of it) but I don't know that they've ever cited any specific scripture, and I'm not aware of any, so it is likely to be their interpretation of something nonspecific in Daniel or Revelation.

I agree with TruthIron, though -- time is running short, and I suspect that the political realities of the situation will force those who have this as a part of their image of that time to have to set it aside. Even if the Dome of the Rock was to be destroyed, through natural or human action, using that space for rebuilding the Temple would bring a certainty of disaster, it seems. Of course, that might similarly trigger the remainder of the prophecy, so who knows, but time is still the salient issue.

The reason that I had asked for a link to those who seek to rebuild the Temple (why such a link would be "off topic", I don't know, but whatever) is that the Jews seem to have resolved not having it and the only Christians who would be in favour of it would be some weird minority that wants to "force" the End Times, so I'm not sure who would be driving it, what their motivation is, and what the likelihood of their success might be.

I appreciate all the replies that are being presented and the logic each have given here as it all adds to a better understanding.

There is a thought that comes to mind though that I think is important, the decree that went out in 457 BC that the Temple be rebuilt. Seven weeks and the wall and street was rebuilt in troubleless times, and then to Messiah the Prince sixty two weeks - 7+62=69 which takes us to the week, the seventieth that Messiah was crucified in the middle of. That would be 27 AD through 33 AD is my math on it. Now we know Jesus, Yahshua was in the temple at that time and I would need to have some evidence it is to be rebuilt again.

It should make sense that the seventieth week follows the sixty ninth, as how else would it make sense.

Since we are counting downn from 457 the math would be 457-7wks. of yrs = 49 from 457 =408, 408-62 wks of yrs, 434.takes us to 27 AD.

We have to count down 408 yrs. including 1, then1 again up through 26 which then equals the 434 yrs of the 62 wks of years. The next following year, 27 AD would then start the week of yrs. of Messiah the Prince.

Yes it sure is a little confusing to count down and then count back up but the figures don't lie.

I gave this in hopes it may help to come to a clearer understanding of this mystery, or shoud I say prophecy.

Truthiron.

reply to post by adjensen
adjensen,

You are right anything on the temple would not be off topic. If anything came on that wasn't it could be brought back by any concerned so no worry. Sometimes things can be led off as there is always side issues that people see that are relevant in some way.

Greetings and peace be to you.

Truthiron.

reply to post by adjensen

The reason that I had asked for a link to those who seek to rebuild the Temple (why such a link would be "off topic", I don't know, but whatever) is that the Jews seem to have resolved not having it and the only Christians who would be in favour of it would be some weird minority that wants to "force" the End Times, so I'm not sure who would be driving it, what their motivation is, and what the likelihood of their success might be.

I didn't want to get into it here for fear of derailing. The third thread I started was all about temple versus Messiah. Basically, the pre-trib rapture doctrine completely relies on the 3rd temple being built, so that anti-christ can sit in it. What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
And also requires the 70th week be separated by more than a thousand years from the preceding 69. (Dan 9:25-27)

The OP seems to have a framework not strictly Preterist, Historicist, not Futurist, which makes it difficult for me to understand. But I think that something more than re-hashing the same arguments is what he's looking for.

Originally posted by pthena
Basically, the pre-trib rapture doctrine completely relies on the 3rd temple being built, so that anti-christ can sit in it.
What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

Okay, I can see that, thanks for the link. They've charted it out as:

Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).

By that thinking, yes, the Temple would have to be rebuilt. Personally, I've never viewed Paul as being a prophet, so I wonder if that bit in 2 Thessalonians is coming from someone else. But I digress -- if that is a valid prophecy, then time again becomes the salient issue. Could they destroy the Dome of the Rock and build (and open) a new Temple in three and a half years? I suppose so, though I still go back to that construction being impossible in this day and age, given the opposition that people would have for building anything on that location.

A lot of the pieces of the puzzle are seemingly with us, but that one... I just don't see it.

reply to post by truthiron


I saw the post on the 70th week and thought I would point out the reason for a long gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. It turns out there was unfinished business to complete.

So to start with look at verse 9-24 in Daniel.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I would say that this verse is yet to be fulfilled. There is still sin in the world. If this verse was fulfilled I would think the world would be a much different place than it is today. There is simply something wrong here. And I found it in the book of Hosea and Malachi.

So here is the problem from Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


And what's the problem? Jesus Christ claimed his John the Baptist was Elijah the prophet. And if you look at some of the other verses of Malachi you realize that the job of messiah in the first century AD was a 2 person job. Herod in killing John the Baptist actually triggered the curse. Then the problem is determining the length and severity of the curse. And I found that in Hosea.

Hosea 3.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 5.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 13.
According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

The curse they were slammed with was a top level Leviticus 26 curse. Destructions of your cities. Your people deported away to be slaves in foreign nations. Random acts of destruction and terror. Not a good place to be in.

But then I figured out the length of the curse.

Hosea 6.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Those days are in the presence of God. And per Psalms 90 and 2nd Peter 3-8 those days would be thousand year periods of time.

The curse of Malachi is 2000 years long. Followed by a thousand year day of Jezreel mentioned in Hosea 1. That is filling the gap between the 69th and 70th week. And that explains the gaps in time in the prophesies of Luke 21 and Matthew 24. The times of the gentiles and the length of time for the gospel of the kingdom to be spread to the world are simply different names for this curse.

reply to post by adjensen
adjensen,

I see though that Dan. 9:27 is that seventieth week from the context. KJV-

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus did that, He confirmed the covenant with the Jews and died the middle of it AD 30 and the disciples carried it on to them to finish that wk. of yrs. and the gospel then went to the Gentiles AD 34

When He died on the cross this put an end to the ceremonies pointing to His shed blood, "sacrifice and oblation" did cease and the temple veil was rent in half from top to bottom. It was desolated by God Himself, "He" tore the veil in half and left it and the verse states "even to the consumation". "That determined shall be poured upon the desolate" is a grim statement for them.

Why would God then allow it to be rebuilt?

We differ but please consider the thought above. Also go to my post above and see if you can follow my math on the countdown as I find it to be the answer.

Thanks for considering. I love you all who have responded.

Truthiron

jmdewey mentioned this:

NIV
MT 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

I think Jesus means by house a little more than just a city or temple, but rather the whole messianic line. As far as I know, no one has ever considered that Jesus knowingly refused the job of messiah.

ISA 22:15 This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says:

"Go, say to this steward,
to Shebna, who is in charge of the palace:

ISA 22:16 What are you doing here and who gave you permission
to cut out a grave for yourself here,
hewing your grave on the height
and chiseling your resting place in the rock?

ISA 22:17 "Beware, the LORD is about to take firm hold of you
and hurl you away, O you mighty man.

ISA 22:18 He will roll you up tightly like a ball
and throw you into a large country.
There you will die
and there your splendid chariots will remain--
you disgrace to your master's house!

ISA 22:19 I will depose you from your office,
and you will be ousted from your position.

ISA 22:20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots--all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

ISA 22:25 "In that day," declares the LORD Almighty, "the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down." The LORD has spoken.

As a steward, not as a king, given charge over the house of David, the messianic line. Jesus had upon his shoulder the key to the house of David. On that firm peg was hung the whole inheritance. The peg broke, Jesus broke, The whole messiah gig smashed to the ground.

As for why I am not a Christian. There is no messiah, the line ended, messiahness is a thing of the past. By definition then, any claiming to be Messiah is suspect.

Any student of the Old Testament knows what the Messiah, Son of David model is:
1. Great King established in holy city Psalm 2
2. Holy City ethnically cleansed Zech 14:21 "And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD Almighty."
3 The Holy City becomes the capital of world empire. All nations to bow down. Dire consequences to any not paying tribute Zech 14:17

The theme plays over and over again non-stop. Endless loop. Just how many times must an indestructible city be rebuilt before some one questions whether it is indestructible or not?

Jesus turned it down, read the story of the temptation by the devil in the desert. All that was offered was no less than the Messiah model enumerated above.

reply to post by ntech
ntech,

I can't follow you as that seventieth week was positively fulfilled in it's order. That would be like taking January 2011 on down a thousand or so yrs. and making the yr. 2011 but 11 months. It wouldn't be the 70'th week way on down to our time, it would take some math to see how many wks. of yrs. has gone by.

The math on that would go like this. AD 26 was the end of the 69'th wk. of yrs so we would subtract 26 from say 2012 since many like that yr. to end all things, but won't. 2012 - 26 = 1986 yrs. Then we divide that by 7 to find how many more wks of yrs since AD 26. 1986 divide 7 = rounded to 284 +69 = 353 and we could add 1 more if we find it is 7 more yrs. and that would make it the 354'th wk. from the starting time of the prophecy.

Please check out my last reply to ajensen on this as that is how I see it makes any sense.

I agree right now my view is not a popular one. And you know there are many that see it different than either of us, but to each his own. We just try to explain what we see to be true.

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by truthiron
Why would God then allow it to be rebuilt?

We differ but please consider the thought above. Also go to my post above and see if you can follow my math on the countdown as I find it to be the answer.

Well, we don't differ -- I don't think that it will be rebuilt, particularly as I don't see anyone clamouring for it.

That said, I don't think that God wouldn't allow it to be rebuilt, I suspect he wouldn't really care. The Temple was the dwelling place of God on Earth, the place that is now us, through the Holy Spirit (by Christian thought, anyway.) So, from God's perspective, it would just be another building, regardless of what the intention was. Arguably, then, the Temple referred to in 2 Thessalonians couldn't be "the Temple", so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

That's why I shy away from such subjects -- I'm not as agile as some of you guys who can sort out what all those different bits mean.

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

You do have a different view than I that is for sure, but to sum it up Jesus is the fulfillment of the old testament. His was the new and better covenant as His was the blood that only could suffice. Then His Love instilled in us fulfills the law of love.

Do I find the temple will ever be rebuilt, no I do not.

Thanks for considering.

Truthiron.

reply to post by adjensen
ajensen,

I find you are a very agile thinker and your ideas are welcome always. Thanks.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron

You do have a different view than I that is for sure, but to sum it up Jesus is the fulfillment of the old testament. His was the new and better covenant as His was the blood that only could suffice. Then His Love instilled in us fulfills the law of love.

The only thing that separates us is the gulf of official decrees made by councils and emperors, such as your Canon of scripture, the nature of Messiah, or Christ, if you will.

I find that Jesus was uncomfortable about being called Messiah. Because he knew that the model they had in mind was the Son of David Great King, ruler of the world model. To him that was an old wineskin. The new wine must have a new framework.

Your main concern in this thread seems to be a world religion dictating what is and what isn't acceptable worship upon pain of death. That is in fact the Old Testament model of Messiah. You fear some faker, impostor, the devil himself, anti-christ will take the position of Messiah. But you hold to the old framework and think "It's OK as long as the real Messiah sits on the throne, but the fake will, so that's bad."

Jesus ended that whole framework, the Christians missed that memo somehow and are trying to keep the new wine in the old wineskin. The apostle Paul saw many of the implications, but he was killed before he saw all of them. He had not yet completely shaken off the old. Christianity by nature takes Jesus and jams him into a certain pre-determined mold while ignoring his say in the matter, or whether he accepted that mold as one of his own choosing.

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

I find the following to be a pretty convincing testimony, KJV -

Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

When God left the temple and tore the veil from top to bottom and left their house unto them desolate is also a very convincing testimony. The seventy wks. is what this is all about, the time alloted to the Jews to finish the transgression, seventy wks it says are determined upon thy people.

It is a sad story as they were so stiffnecked they continued apart.

Ac 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This is all about the rejection of the promised Messiah and that is seen from these 70 wks.

One can not separate the seventy wks., that alloted time ended as prophecied AD 33. Then the Gentiles were graffed in and the gospel went to them, also a very convincing testimony.

The prophecy of Isa. chap 53:1-12 is also a very convincing testimony. Please read it, you won't read it any more accurate in Mat. Mark Luke and John. Keep this verse in mind as you read it. -

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You can see where I stand with that explanation I'm sure so I will go no further in that direction on this thread.

Thanks for the reply.

Truthiron.

reply to post by adjensen

Personally, I've never viewed Paul as being a prophet, so I wonder if that bit in 2 Thessalonians is coming from someone else.

I did a study on the books of Thessalonians a while back, while posting on a thread in Conspiracies. Paul was talking about Satan but I guess did not want to give him the dignity of calling him by name and what would his name be anyway?
I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who would love to have their temple back and why not if you were a Jew, I suppose. There's books made up with every detail of what to do in the event of there being a temple.
As much as it is nice to have these people labeled "Jews" to have as a target, I have to think there is something more sinister behind it all and it is what Daniel and John saw, which is world empire and a universality of dominion and guess who has that as their official title? Look it up, what does "catholic" mean. It just so happened that centuries ago, it was Christian but it can incorporate any religion imaginable into itself. The important thing is that everyone agrees to a single creed, whatever it happens to be. Who likes that sort of situation? The man of sin, the devil who sits on the throne of the temple which is being head of the worldwide universal religion. To think anything else, in my opinion, is foolishness.

reply to post by truthiron
Thank you, Truthiron. I see that you did get the memo, Jesus chose the Suffering Servant model rather than The Great King ruling with the Iron Scepter model.

The major problem I've had with the book of Daniel is the ambiguity of who is being spoken of, as in "and he did this to him", no clear indication of just who the 'he' is or who the 'him' may be.

I count the book of Hebrews as probably the most advanced portion of the Bible. Link the One Like the Son of Man vision of Daniel 7, in the midst of a scene of great power forces killing the saints, the representative for the saints receives the kingdom on behalf of the saints. Verse 17, it's the saints who really inherit the kingdom. Like Jesus said, "The meek shall inherit the earth."

HEB 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

HEB 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.

The place of his sanctuary was brought down.

HEB 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;

HEB 10:6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.

HEB 10:7 Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll--
I have come to do your will, O God.' "

Thus was ended any significance there ever was for stone temples.

reply to post by pthena
pthena,

It is also a very revealing statement when John revealed -

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Redemption was laid out before anything.

For some Paul is hard to understand and take his writings in the wrong direction.

The Jews had the wrong idea about the coming Redeemer, you wouldn't think they could have not realized He was to be that Lamb slain after all the years of the lamb morning and evening that they sacrificed dipicted, pointed to the true Lamb that only could suffice.

I'll leave it go after these verses - KJV -

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

I explain this fully in my thread "These Stand on The Rock" in the Religion Faith forum.

I find these things a rewarding study, the deep things.

Truthiron.

reply to post by ntech

I would say that this verse is yet to be fulfilled. There is still sin in the world. If this verse was fulfilled I would think the world would be a much different place than it is today.

So, you think Jesus made no difference? The world would be exactly the way it is now even if Jesus never came?

reply to post by pthena

The whole messiah gig smashed to the ground.

Jesus said, "Don't tell anyone else what you just told me."
What? That he was Messiah.
A very interesting take on the situation, Pthena.
I tend to go back to the Book of Hebrews model of Melchesidech
who I think was Shem, meaning he lived before the flood and I think
he recognized the rock formation at Jerusalem, having survived, and
somehow having an earlier significance which only he understood.
Jesus being born a man but having a previous existence would have
known the true meaning but found it not something necessary to pass
on but to make use of himself on our behalf. What that would be is
probably incomprehensible but to someone like Abraham but only to
a certain degree. Jesus fulfilled something that was promised in the
presence of Adam, who was the first priest.

reply to post by jmdewey60

What that would be is
probably incomprehensible but to someone like Abraham but only to
a certain degree. Jesus fulfilled something that was promised in the
presence of Adam, who was the first priest.

Incomprehensible seems to be a good word here. I'm going to honor the OP's invitation and move to his These Stand on The Rock thread.