You think you deserve to earn more than $200k a year?

reply to post by rusethorcain


Thanks for the compliment but i ain't that smart
Okay, the guy i mentioned as starting out in the bus then building a cabin, well he is a 'Nam vet and completely off his head - a raging lunatic type who is border line schizopherenic, plus a severe drug abuser (other than that he is a real nice guy). So if he can do it, most can.

As for the mentally disabled - retarded or even slightly retarded (sorry if those aren't the correct terms) there are options. Sometimes more options for them than just your average dumb guy. Asking for help is the key.
i didn't know how to do half the stuff i did, but i asked and someone would tell me. i think most people are good people.

Now, the dumb guy who is stuck without a clue - who doesn't know how to ask or where to turn, he runs into a little more difficulty.
But there are people out there on the look-out for such people. Two women i know (married lesbians) have done more good for anybody than anyone else i've ever met. And they search for people. When Katrina hit they packed up as much of what they thought was needed and headed down to New Orleans (something where they are still helping displaced people to this day).
My wives and i do the same thing, if we see someone who needs assistance and it appears they can't do much on their own, we will lend a hand and/or lead them in the right direction (within our ability).
In fact, i know lots of people who are willing to help and direct people to find help. It is rare that someone actually starves or freezes to death (of course s**t happens).

Also, sometimes the person is hard to deal with, as those two women i mentioned have been currently dealing with another slightly schizo woman who has accused them of stealing her money (what little she has) when they set up a bank account for her and she over spends and thinks they are stealing it (actually they've covered for her several times with the bank), this woman has had her parents disassociate with her because of her behavoir and was out on the street for years until my friends found her.
Back in the day, when i was a businessman, i let three girls (19 and 20yrs old) who were kicked out of their folks houses (for being gay) live in my spare rooms and give me rent if or when they had it (one had been in her car for months).

But that is what i was trying to say, help is there, sometimes it seems it doesn't come quick enough or like it doesn't really help at all in the long run. But such is life and it does seem to be extra hard for some people (wring your hands and hang your head).

And most who are on the look out for others in distress aren't doing it for that warm fuzzy feeling that some folks get, but do it because it is necessary as we are all humans trapped on a big blue ball in outerspace.

i have ran into the helpless, the manic depressed and those who are suffering some physical and mental ailments that make it incredibly hard to help. But that is when i have asked others to intervene as i was limited as to what to do.
Funny, one time i asked a Catholic priest to help with a couple of suicidal teens and i never seen him again, but for the most part churchs have been a great asset. Although i mostly was dealing with younger people who were troubled in one way or another (gay and thrown out, or suicidal) i would be the middle man between the churches and kids so the kids wouldn't have to deal with the sin aspect of their troubles. But food, shelter, clothing usually was found. My house was dubbed the "Mission" and my coffee house/gallery the "Sanctuary". And some took advantage of me.

Drugs was also a big problem and all you can do then is say get off drugs and direct them to out-reach programs of some sort.

But as far as just plain old dumb people all that can happen is that someone finds them. And i know there are those looking.
Also, if they can just ask - city hall - local county building - local churches someone will guide them in a direction, maybe not the right direction at first but a start.
Episcopal churches, United Church of Christ and some Methodists seem to be the least judgemental about sinners, all except a few are realitively helpfull when it comes to dumb people and i don't know anything about other faiths, but have heard reformed Judaism is pretty nonjudgemental. Plus there are interfaith groups and just plain old good hearted people (as myself, my wives and the two women i mentioned are of no religious affiliation).

Sometimes i prefer dumb people over smart people, as dumb people play by heart instead of a pretense of being smart. And i believe we are all dumb in someway or another (i know i am).

i do understand what you are saying though about the lazy and/or dumb folks who after adulthood or the deaths of their parents seem just lost. It is a delema sometimes and we can only hope - someday, someway they will find a repreive... Haha, now you got me bummed out, yet also feeling incredibly lucky

as ever
mike

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by byteshertz
At the end of the day we are all drowning, the only way to survive is to hold someone else down to keep afloat - unless we all stop drowning each other in panic and work together to swim to the shore and that can only come from a new system.

Going back to the OP...

How much should someone make who is a surgeon?

How much should someone make who is a design engineer / scientist? (me)

How much should someone makes who owns a small business employing 50 employees each making between $30-75k / year?

I want numbers. How much should they make (or keep after taxes) to make things fair?

I want a specific answer of how much I would make in your eutopia.

Please leave the rhetoric alone for a moment and be specific.

I think what the OP is not realizing, is that all whom work, make choices. Those choices ultimately define the character of a person you become. If you choose to settle for mediocrity, then so be it. If you choose to get educated and become a Doctor or something of that magnitude, and you earn six digits, so be it. Its all based off of what you earn, or in this case, how much effort you wish to put forth?
To "assume" that all who are rich were born that way is just nonsense. The OP is making the assumption that he/she knows all the circumstances to which the rich got their wealth. So with that logic, my family elders, really didn't start their own businesses, and they really didn't look at what was lucrative, with longevity, no they just woke up one morning and decided to be wealthy?
Yes, people " choose" to become a janitor, making 30k a year, but does that immediately mean that this person has no honor? Does this person have no happiness?
I find this thread just more to be jarbble, and someones discontent with life rather than trying to turn things around for themselves.
It has been said through the ages, hard work pays off....I don't think I need to define that, its pretty self explanatory.

reply to post by trika3000


I get it. You disagree...or something...

I think it is great my south American friends say they are just lower middle class people, not rich or anything yet they have someone who lives with them who cooks and cleans for them.

"You have a maid?" I asked Marisol, my co-worker. Of course. Everyone does.
This is how they care for their poor, although I am sure it is a 2 way street.

The best answers are not hand outs for the poor, but workable and mutually beneficial solutions that allow people to contribute and even take pride in their work. Some people actually LIKE to cook and clean and care for other people.
Their social structure with that of the rung IMMEDIATELY above helping employ the rung below makes that possible.
Here we have like a dozen BIG rungs, with about 10 million little rings under each of them.
The pressure is all on our government and none on our "system" or people to be responsible and live cooperatively.
We create situations where we live OFF others in a negative way, not with them.

Only a very small percentage of people in dire need will ask for help.

People die of pride on a daily basis.

What we don't know won't hurt us.
And they never write "too much pride to seek help" on the death certificate, so we don't know.
But it happens. You betcha.

Your friends are priceless.
And rare.
Random acts of kindness are getting bred out of us.
Soon they will be gone.

I see commercials that encourage and make it cool to be fast talking liars and manipulators, as long as you get ahead.

The phrase, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" has been changed to:

Do unto others as you they would do unto you, but do it first.

Our way (free capitalism) is not all that great a way.
It beats some of the others out there but, that is about it.

reply to post by Whereweheaded

It has been said through the ages, hard work pays off....I don't think I need to define that, its pretty self explanatory.

Unless the system itself, is deliberately rigged against you so you can only get so far without hitting a wall.

And it is.

Ever hear the expression, "dealer takes all ties?"

That is how it happens.
And you (we) are not "dealing" anything.

You are only fighting for the day you can become a dealer yourself.
Get born again into a wealthier family with better ties.
You might be a born golfer or tennis player too.
And lord knows we need more of them.

If you don't do something you should not make money.
Watching the money multiply and moving it from point A to point B cannot possibly be everyone's job.

Sooner or later if you do not put some kind of value added clause to business operations our society will crumble into a sink hole of nothing. Because that is what we specialize in.

Alright I have to agree and disagree....

I agree with you in regards to people in our government making excess $$$...
Since Obama took office people in the Fed making $150k have doubled. Btw, our country is in debt, and what about the expensive trip overseas .
*I don't even want people to respond how he's employing people this way.*
You don't employ the people into government. Besides unemployment rates have only gone up since hes taken office.
--- What I'm getting at is, a lot of rich people are in the government, guess what, they control us. Then their sons and daughters are born and guess where they go to school.... Ivy league schools... guess what, they've made it to the big leagues already to begin in government. Yay good for them... because they worked sssoooo hard for it.
I've graduated college too but does that entitle me a government job in my skill set... guess not since I didn't go to an Ivy school. I am 25 and I am working part time. My life is on hold because I am either over qualified (yes I said it, because of my degree), or I don't have 5-10 years experience (graphic design). I am doing stuff on the side but geez... The market just isn't good for designers because businesses aren't marketing. And in the design field, businesses only want experienced workers that can do literally everything, where there used to be a team of designers, there is now 1 or 2. Motion/Animation, Print, Web... etc
I'm not just complaining, I'm working a job, while improving my skill set and looking for a full time job in anything. I am thankful that I have a parent that will front all of his extra income to pay on my school loans that I cannot.

An example:
www.breitbart.tv...

Do you really want someone that hasn't balanced a checkbook so to speak for a company, but rather the government?

As far as people in the private sector, this happens as well... but they aren't governing and controlling me. They either worked hard, got lucky, or were born. Honestly, good for them, thank you America. But some of these people aren't doing the "pyramid" to any good by outsourcing...

The funny thing is that I just don't understand...If the people on top get people on the bottom to be a little more stable/wealthier, wouldn't that in turn be good for the people on top because then they will have more clients and their clients will be even better....Clients and consumers... whatever the business type.
This concept, same for the government. They don't seem to be helping more people into the middle class.... A big strong middle class = a wealthy and strong country. Keep that and I think people wouldn't mind a little gov overspending.


I definitely agree with the OP with this issue but within the gov.
Why do we work for them... We are becoming indentured servants and nobody realizes this.

Besides, everyone is saying that people are being lazy. Don't blame everyone so much, yes there are some... but our government is encouraging it. They want us to be dependent. Obamacare is 1 example but has failed.

1. I have had it explained to me ad nauseum that there is no new money - this impression is given to people all the time but in a system where some odd 80 or 90% of our total value is owed in the form of a national debt to Japan and China - I heard this said even on NPR (not entirely trustworthy, but a pretty solid source?).. In addition when money is "added" to the system there is an equivalent loss of value for that coin against the others.... So forgive me for being dense, but how is there any more than one solid pie? Free energy? Have I missed something?

The best answer I can think of regarding the 80 - 90% of debt owed to Japan or China (Which I don't doubt), is to compare a house to the national debt. You might say that you 'own' your home, but technically, the bank owns it until you pay it off. Now as long as you're making payments, you can pretty much claim ownership of the house. The problem comes into play when you can no longer afford to make payments to the bank. The bank then may take back the house. How this will work out with China and Japan, when our government can't pay it's obligations to foreign countries, well, of that I'm not sure. Instead of 'taking' their asset as a bank might with your home, they might devalue their own currency so as to actually increase the value of the amount owed to them. It's quite a complicated process that needs to have a lot more space than this blog to really go into a lot of detail.

As for money that is 'added' to an economy resulting in a loss of value: Not when a new product or needed service is created. Again, this is an extremely simple answer for a much more complex subject.

2. Bill Gates stole an idea that had been shared in community, and did amoral battle with others who had the same idea - he's the Silicon Pirate, isn't he?

The same could be said of Thomas Edison, taking the ideas from Nicola Tesla and producing over 1000 patents to Tesla's 112. Some say that Edison was a better at marketing than Tesla. My point of bringing Gates into the discussion was to show the OP that just because you are poor at the start doesn't mean that you can't become one of the worlds richest persons if you apply yourself.

3. The number "1,000,000" may have stayed the same over the centuries demarcated, but the VALUE of that number changed commensurate with the commonality of the sum going forward into the future. Or more succinctly, the Million was worth a lot when Millonaires were few, but became worth a lot less when Millionaries became Many. It seems simple enough to me. The only time our economy actually grows is when we are able to add ENERGY, the TRUE coin of ALL realms. We haven't done anything like that in awhile. We will make a bit of money when we plug some inefficiency holes in energy, like the electric power used to power silicon machines that will be 20x more efficient when they're swapped out for graphene equivalents... But I can promise you, and as a man of the abacus you surely know this, that the growth rate on Earth will trump that gain in spades... No, the only way to add another Pie, if I'm reading things right, is to come upon an Energy Windfall - like a planet of expendable hydrogen, or an understanding of some sort of Lossless (closer to lossless?) Energy. It would have to be large enough to cancel out the iniquities birth rate has caused.

You've got me thinking here. When is a million a million. Is the true value of a million the way it was in the 60's or 90's or today? I will concede that the answer is more of a conceptual one per individual than an actual dollar amount or an object worth a million dollars.

As for energy being the true coin, that is a new concept for me. Personally, I am of the belief that people are 'of the earth', not apart from it. We came from the earth and we shall return to the earth, physically anyway. If the population increases to a point in which the earth is in danger, then it is my personal belief that the earth will trim the fat, so to speak. As seen throughout history, when a population of any particular species gets out of control, nature will introduce a predator for that species, even if it's a microbe or a virus.

4. Bill Gates caught onto a wave, he didn't make one. He added a powerful piece of logic to the train of logic that NASA and IBM had started. He made things better and easier, and so many people paid him - but put him 30 years in the future, without a wave to ride, and he's still in his garage smoking doobies and trying to hide from his parents. And JK Rowling got paid because there was a free bit of cash floating around in entertainment, but if you look at entertainment honestly, you'll see a steady dwindling of ALL finance power in these industries, barrelling down in fact from ~1999 to now, steady as if gravity were complicit. And as a musician, I can tell you that if you feel like it's a lot harder to succeed in this field than it used to be, it's not in your head. People don't buy music like they used to - or movie tickets, or books, hypertext, video games, vacations.... These 'electives' will be the first to go as the cell begins to wither. Next you'll see food choices become challenged - no more expensive organics, people will buy whatever they can afford. Then housing will come next,.... By that time, if no force should step in to mitigate this velocity - well, historically, riots and a mountainous upshot in crime.. Then the people group together for their own purposes, and order starts to disappear...

I am glad to look into your views and theories and will definitely do so. I confess to being far too analytical and logical, often to a fault. Saying that, I do believe firmly in the individual and the human spirit to essentially do the impossible. History is full of deniers and nay-sayers. My grandfather said repeatedly that man would not and could never go to the moon. Even in 1981, Bill Gates was quoted as saying that '640k should be enough for anyone'. Energy, innovation, invention, etc. will come to be when there is a need for such. Necessity is the mother of invention. It always has been and always will be. And lastly, I hope I answered your question, but I am a true believer of the nearly infinite power of the human spirit. In as much, I believe that if you can dream it, you can do it.

Originally posted by Xterrain
To the OP, I made it about 3 lines into your first paragrapgh before I realized what I was reading...I have worked my butt off since I was 16 (legally allowed to work), have spent my time in college, paying for it out of my own pocket, bought my own transportation, held a good job or five, lived my life without ever breaking the law, and no, I don't make $200K, but I make a good amount by myself and I can guarantee you, that I WILL. Hell, I'll probably make more that that in a few more years, then there is my other halves income to factor in too. Haha. I'm 24 and have spent my time investing in my future; thats the best investment one can make, is into their education. If you don't think capitalism pays for hard work, lawful living, and education, you are sadly mistaken and will spend the rest of your life blaming the system for holding you down and not yourself. Grow up.

My friend, you have a stout heart, and there's no denying that. For that you should be lauded.

But when you build a castle on a marsh, it will eventually fall. The wise and the paranoid will see it sway first, and tell the others. Only a fool will sleep in a falling castle.

And educaton is EXACTLY that castle. If you look into the roots of the education systems, at least here in the US, you can see with very little effort that it was built upon a series of fallacies and flawed concepts. For awhile it served its stated purpose... but as the human being's ability to learn changed over the last 100 years, the sway in the walls is starting to become obvious.

Education, as a social system, is the hoarding of information to be sold at high premium to those who want it. It made a lot of sense in a privatized system, with a wide and stable peasant class, and when that peasant class was the warden of food-growing. To put it simply, the poorest and least educated were less likely to starve, because no matter how cruel the market, they were actually growing food and selling it... Not battling a recessive system and uncooperative state government employees to establish food stamps, then taking them to the supermarket to buy hfcs and soy laced food equivalents.. Back then, a little bit of education given to an intrepid and ambitious farmer could lead to... oh I don't know, that farmer looking at a tractor and dreaming up the automobile and starting Ford Motors (en.wikipedia.org...) ....

But now, that same bit of education put into the head of an intrepid and ambitious peasant-class individual tends to lead to something a little lackluster compared to ol Henry.. like a failed attempt at ATM fraud...

The reasons can be debated all day,and will be I'm sure. But I put it to you that it's the simplest answer that's usually correct, and in that vein I conclude thusly: There are way more people then there were, and the niches have been filled so many times over that now we struggle to come up with examples of a modern succeeder to discuss.. For all those people, the amount of arable land and harvestable energy haven't changed, and in fact have dwindled in several respects - the land choked by cement that could have been farmed for food and fuel; the portion of energy inefficiently consumed by our past and our ancestors, and trapped in places and forms it'll be hard to retrieve it from; and the unfortunate abandonment of simple food and energy sources, in favor of ridiculous ones with inherent epic-fail qualities.. (healthmad.com... ,,,, www.drlam.com... ,,, en.wikipedia.org... )

Let's say you're that poor person. You want to succeed. So you go to school, you get a low wage job to help pay for your family as your parent(s) become frail or unable to support your sibling(s).. You graduate high school but your GPA is discolored by inordinate extracurricular activities in relation to your family - jobs to cover clothes and transportation that your family can't provide, study time lost to household duties you fill in and do - and so instead of getting into college on a good GPA, you have to pay... Well you don't have any money to fall back on because mcdonald's is a j.o.b. position... So you go for a grant. The terms of that grant say you have to keep a certain GPA or you lose the coverage and owe back the money... So on the edge of a knife you go through school, leery to engage in socializing that could jeopardize your precarious balance, and so while the experience is joyful to well-familially-funded rich kids and the less challenged, it's an antisocial nightmare for you, and you can't wait to be done with the ordeal and on to life.. And let's say you're the 1 in 10 that does make it through that gauntlet, and you've got your degree. Now, this is US, post-recession, jobs are hard to come by, and you'll find that the degree doesn't sway very many heads. You're heartbroken when menial jobs like insurance salesman involve four group interviews over three months and you're sent home for reasons unbeknownst to you.. But you're intrepid! So you start your own business - construction-related businesses seem to be common, so let's say you are an electrical expert, well versed in routing complex electrical grids through business and residences... So you start looking for clients, but you find that the big companies in construction already have most of the clientele, they offer lower work rates and give customers the impression of safety through their 80 phone workers and 400 branch offices... and you don't have the support of national advertising, fleet vehicles, the prveleges of well-funded businesses... Your business starts losing money, you can't staff anyone but yourself, you try to keep a respectable business but over time you're forced to take the role of a small construction-niche freelancer, commonly employed by the bigger companies at a poor pay rate .. and over time, you're just that cartoon guy on the 2sq in newspaper ad, with the charicature nose and construction tools, and a little local phone number trhat never even gets calls for quotes..
Right about now, the costs of college come up to bite you, if they're going to... At the same time as the business crucially demands funds, so you seek a loan, go furhter into debt... I don't have to keep going for ppl to see where this leads.

Now, if the Powers That Be have truly purchased your psyche, friend, then you'll see nothing in the above but the errors of the individual; you'll actually give an unfair leniency to the mistakes of the other character in that story, namely, Society... And you'll be biased against the individual, able to see only mistakes in all his efforts, nothing worth praising...

The thing that bothers me the worst is that those who love the System over the Individual act like they wouldn't care if all the people less successful (read: less "character") than they are(have) were to just be murdered in their sleep one night by some sadist Ramses ... That the next day, Republicans and "hard-workers" everywhere would just go on as if it didn't happen..

Sometimes I feel as Keenan said, 'praying for tidal waves'... just to have the hope of seeing all of these elitists, with their complex and hard-to-reach careers, have to pick up hoes and drive ploughs and callous up their fingers to grow sustenance for survival - because those who used to do that for them are gone... What we wouldn't give for a Pied Piper... No matter what is said in this debate, as a person raised in poverty, I know that you of the elite need us salt of the earth........ Karma would make a reality show of your trying to do without us...

Oh - and apologies, if your awesome career is Farmer. In fact, I'd really respect you for that. It's not, is it?

Originally posted by MensaDude

1. I have had it explained to me ad nauseum that there is no new money - this impression is given to people all the time but in a system where some odd 80 or 90% of our total value is owed in the form of a national debt to Japan and China - I heard this said even on NPR (not entirely trustworthy, but a pretty solid source?).. In addition when money is "added" to the system there is an equivalent loss of value for that coin against the others.... So forgive me for being dense, but how is there any more than one solid pie? Free energy? Have I missed something?

The best answer I can think of regarding the 80 - 90% of debt owed to Japan or China (Which I don't doubt), is to compare a house to the national debt. You might say that you 'own' your home, but technically, the bank owns it until you pay it off. Now as long as you're making payments, you can pretty much claim ownership of the house. The problem comes into play when you can no longer afford to make payments to the bank. The bank then may take back the house. How this will work out with China and Japan, when our government can't pay it's obligations to foreign countries, well, of that I'm not sure. Instead of 'taking' their asset as a bank might with your home, they might devalue their own currency so as to actually increase the value of the amount owed to them. It's quite a complicated process that needs to have a lot more space than this blog to really go into a lot of detail.

As for money that is 'added' to an economy resulting in a loss of value: Not when a new product or needed service is created. Again, this is an extremely simple answer for a much more complex subject.

2. Bill Gates stole an idea that had been shared in community, and did amoral battle with others who had the same idea - he's the Silicon Pirate, isn't he?

The same could be said of Thomas Edison, taking the ideas from Nicola Tesla and producing over 1000 patents to Tesla's 112. Some say that Edison was a better at marketing than Tesla. My point of bringing Gates into the discussion was to show the OP that just because you are poor at the start doesn't mean that you can't become one of the worlds richest persons if you apply yourself.

3. The number "1,000,000" may have stayed the same over the centuries demarcated, but the VALUE of that number changed commensurate with the commonality of the sum going forward into the future. Or more succinctly, the Million was worth a lot when Millonaires were few, but became worth a lot less when Millionaries became Many. It seems simple enough to me. The only time our economy actually grows is when we are able to add ENERGY, the TRUE coin of ALL realms. We haven't done anything like that in awhile. We will make a bit of money when we plug some inefficiency holes in energy, like the electric power used to power silicon machines that will be 20x more efficient when they're swapped out for graphene equivalents... But I can promise you, and as a man of the abacus you surely know this, that the growth rate on Earth will trump that gain in spades... No, the only way to add another Pie, if I'm reading things right, is to come upon an Energy Windfall - like a planet of expendable hydrogen, or an understanding of some sort of Lossless (closer to lossless?) Energy. It would have to be large enough to cancel out the iniquities birth rate has caused.

You've got me thinking here. When is a million a million. Is the true value of a million the way it was in the 60's or 90's or today? I will concede that the answer is more of a conceptual one per individual than an actual dollar amount or an object worth a million dollars.

As for energy being the true coin, that is a new concept for me. Personally, I am of the belief that people are 'of the earth', not apart from it. We came from the earth and we shall return to the earth, physically anyway. If the population increases to a point in which the earth is in danger, then it is my personal belief that the earth will trim the fat, so to speak. As seen throughout history, when a population of any particular species gets out of control, nature will introduce a predator for that species, even if it's a microbe or a virus.

4. Bill Gates caught onto a wave, he didn't make one. He added a powerful piece of logic to the train of logic that NASA and IBM had started. He made things better and easier, and so many people paid him - but put him 30 years in the future, without a wave to ride, and he's still in his garage smoking doobies and trying to hide from his parents. And JK Rowling got paid because there was a free bit of cash floating around in entertainment, but if you look at entertainment honestly, you'll see a steady dwindling of ALL finance power in these industries, barrelling down in fact from ~1999 to now, steady as if gravity were complicit. And as a musician, I can tell you that if you feel like it's a lot harder to succeed in this field than it used to be, it's not in your head. People don't buy music like they used to - or movie tickets, or books, hypertext, video games, vacations.... These 'electives' will be the first to go as the cell begins to wither. Next you'll see food choices become challenged - no more expensive organics, people will buy whatever they can afford. Then housing will come next,.... By that time, if no force should step in to mitigate this velocity - well, historically, riots and a mountainous upshot in crime.. Then the people group together for their own purposes, and order starts to disappear...

I am glad to look into your views and theories and will definitely do so. I confess to being far too analytical and logical, often to a fault. Saying that, I do believe firmly in the individual and the human spirit to essentially do the impossible. History is full of deniers and nay-sayers. My grandfather said repeatedly that man would not and could never go to the moon. Even in 1981, Bill Gates was quoted as saying that '640k should be enough for anyone'. Energy, innovation, invention, etc. will come to be when there is a need for such. Necessity is the mother of invention. It always has been and always will be. And lastly, I hope I answered your question, but I am a true believer of the nearly infinite power of the human spirit. In as much, I believe that if you can dream it, you can do it.


Wow. That was a great read. A few things to say:

1. I would commit seppuku before I went into a debate with a dude as prepared as you.
2. I'm not able to read your post without learning something, and that's awesome.
3. No matter what happens, we are lucky to have clear and concise thinkers like yourself involved in our working toward the solution to all these problems.. And if the bottom ever falls out and we're put upon to try to rectify things, I'll be honored to work with you.

luck/life/kidkboom

Originally posted by byteshertz
and before everyone starts stereo typing poorer people as drunks, smokers and drug abusers, these people are addicts just like you find amoungst the wealthy, the only difference is they usually have bigger things to be depressed about, and can not afford to go to a fancy rehab centre when they come off the rails. As for those that gamble, maybe they like casino odds better than the odds of their life.

I know more rich people than poor people who abuse drugs, and are drunks. As far as do i deserve to make 200k or more a year... that depends on me. Anyone making a high salary, or taking in a large income just figured out how to play the game and win. I won't fault them for that. Do they deserve it? Yes they do because they figured it out. If they loose it should anyone care? Aside from them, and their family probably not. That's their problem. Would I want someone to help me out? Yeah sure. If I went from being rich to having nothing and was offered a way back to the top easily would I take it? Of course - so would you. Should bailouts, and whatever else be going on? Probably not.

Until you're actually faced with an issue you really don't know how you're going to handle it. Not 100% at least.

I'm afraid the word deserve doesn't come into it. Lets go with easy exampled (because it's easier on me )

There is £10 in the world...and two people (Yep it's gonna be THAT simple) One is a braing surgeon and the other works in a factory. The suregon will earn 7 of those pounds while the factory worker earns 3, but they both work the same amount of hours a week.

The suregon went to school and university to be able to do his profession, whilst the factory worker started his jobv straight out of secondary school. Now if both jobs started paying £5 pounds only, why would anyone want to be the surgeon, why put in the extra effort to make the same amount.

You can't say let the factory worker earn £4 and the surgeon £5 because then there is money nobody owns...somebody has to own it...you can't say let them earn the same because nobody will be a surgeon and you can't say let the surgeon earn £6 and the factory worker £4 because there is such little difference it isn't worth it to be the surgeon.

Somebody has to earn that £7 pounds...and the surgeon is far more deserving even though it means the facotry worker doesn't get what he deserves perhaps.

And yes of course, people will fall through the gaps, people who did study hard and still ended up in low paid jobs, but I am afraid that is the way society works.... if we all earn the same we approach communism...and that didn't work too well.

Oh and I earn minimum wage...even 200k dollars a year would be pure bliss aftyer the conversion to pounds xD

reply to post by trika3000


Oh dude interesting story, the only question I would have is, how in the hell did you not only convince your wife to go along with that, but two of them dam, now that is persuasive. But I agree with your point, everybody is pretty much doing what they want from the farmer to the fat cats to everybody in between even the gangsters and drug dealers, even those who played the rat race got to the some-sort of top and fell, they would gladly go through all the hardships just to be on top again, hence rat race. Anyways peace out.

reply to post by JonInMichigan



I know you weren't talking to me but whatever, It's been said a couple of pages back by many people in different ways, supply and demand, that is how much they should make and do make.

How much should someone make who is a surgeon?

Supply and demand, there should be a minimum, but like all other jobs throghout history they will try to charge as much as they can. till they are not in demand as much or at all. End of story.

How much should someone make who is a design engineer / scientist? (me)

Supply and demand, there should be a minimum based on competition, same as all other jobs throughout history, but they will try to charge as much as they can, till they are not in demand as much or at all. End of story

How much should someone makes who owns a small business employing 50 employees each making between $30-75k / year?

Supply and demand, if its needed and in demand they will charge as much as they can as to make as much as they can, till they are not in demand as much or at all. End of story.

I want numbers. How much should they make (or keep after taxes) to make things fair? I want a specific answer of how much I would make in your eutopia. Please leave the rhetoric alone for a moment and be specific.

He has no answer to the pyramid I asked, but he has a point that it ain't to bright to let %1 of the top of the machine to control everything. Which as time passes is were it will lead. And I ain't talking about your life time, think hundreds of years here or thousands. There is no such thing as an utopia.

Originally posted by StevenDye
why would anyone want to be the surgeon, why put in the extra effort to make the same amount.

And to go even further.... the people who are surgeons in a world where they get paid equally to factory workers, garbage collection, etc probably won't be very good surgeons unless for some reason they just have some dying need to help humanity.

Do you really want someone operating on you who is only getting paid the same as the kid collecting baskets in the grocery store parking lot?

reply to post by vexxev


I don't understand this fascination with surgeons, and other in demand jobs for whatever reason, sure there job ain't easy, but it ain't that hard, you all make it sound like they fell from heaven or they are supermen or something. And If I had a choice of choosing to live without a surgeon or garbage man, I would pick the surgeon, but that is because I take care of myself and have never been to one, and the garbage is always there every week, somebody is got to get rid of it and I only went to the doctor a couple of time's in my life. But I see your point with the surgeon thing, they don't get much work as the garbage man so they got to inflate there need, to make up for it. And thanks to all the unhealthy lifestyles and all the drugs that companies push, and the dependents, they could ask for lots of money's, and people will pay so there is a demand especially when its life or death on the line. I see there is an entire world of difference in the way we think, you seem to worship these high in demand job people.

Originally posted by StevenDye
I'm afraid the word deserve doesn't come into it. Lets go with easy exampled (because it's easier on me

)

There is £10 in the world...and two people (Yep it's gonna be THAT simple) One is a braing surgeon and the other works in a factory. The suregon will earn 7 of those pounds while the factory worker earns 3, but they both work the same amount of hours a week.

The suregon went to school and university to be able to do his profession, whilst the factory worker started his jobv straight out of secondary school. Now if both jobs started paying £5 pounds only, why would anyone want to be the surgeon, why put in the extra effort to make the same amount.

You can't say let the factory worker earn £4 and the surgeon £5 because then there is money nobody owns...somebody has to own it...you can't say let them earn the same because nobody will be a surgeon and you can't say let the surgeon earn £6 and the factory worker £4 because there is such little difference it isn't worth it to be the surgeon.

Somebody has to earn that £7 pounds...and the surgeon is far more deserving even though it means the facotry worker doesn't get what he deserves perhaps.

And yes of course, people will fall through the gaps, people who did study hard and still ended up in low paid jobs, but I am afraid that is the way society works.... if we all earn the same we approach communism...and that didn't work too well.

Oh and I earn minimum wage...even 200k dollars a year would be pure bliss aftyer the conversion to pounds xD

A few questions....

1. Why would there be nobody who wants to be the surgeon because of interest in surgery alone? When Tesla glued all those moths to his machine in grade school, nobody was paying him. He just wanted to see if it would work, see what he could do. Why are these sorts of people bred out? Is the size of our televisions really more important than our actual ambitions in life, those things we will be remembered for?

2. Why is there a mill of consumerism supporting the owner and lord of the factory, who subsequently employs workers to do very little of anything, knowing that position will make it easier to dwindle their 5 into 4, 3, 2, 1, and then soon have them working for their food alone, like an indentured servant or a chain-gang rock-breaker? Once again, is the size of our television truly more important than our ambitions for the correct workings of the world?

I think one of the mistakes in logic that we've / I've made, is thinking that people, if they were not paid, would do nothing and produce nothing. I know how instrinsic wampum for survival goods is to mankind's happiness, but I say there's a space between doing what you must to stay fed, and doing what you'd like to be doing or what you're good at... in that space there should be room for us to be doing a little bit of both... What I don't like is the system of Locks and Stops - what is the measure of a man? How much difference is there between Joe Redblood and Lord Winthrop Blueblood III, Esq? How much of that difference is tangible, and how much is in the bias of the eyes of the beholder?

Okay, I'm stopping now before I start re-writing My Fair Lady.. =)

Originally posted by vexxev

Originally posted by StevenDye
why would anyone want to be the surgeon, why put in the extra effort to make the same amount.

And to go even further.... the people who are surgeons in a world where they get paid equally to factory workers, garbage collection, etc probably won't be very good surgeons unless for some reason they just have some dying need to help humanity.

Do you really want someone operating on you who is only getting paid the same as the kid collecting baskets in the grocery store parking lot?

edit on 12-11-2010 by vexxev because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-11-2010 by vexxev because: (no reason given)

I can tell you for a fact that I would not have spent 9 years of my life working full time while also going to school to get a masters degree in engineering if I didn't think I would be making between 100 - 200k by the time I was 42 like I am now.

My dad was a garbage collector and make 50k by the time he was my age. He took life easy and enjoyed it without the stress and responsibilities that I have in my life performing on multimillion dollar engineering projects.

When you compare the stress I'm under and the knowledge and skills I have to have to do my job, not to mention the road up the ladder and dues that had to be paid to get here, earning triple my dad's income seems like a pretty fair deal. No way would I do this for 50k...not a chance.

People see what they want to see, a guy sitting in a cushy office occasionally going online to post on ATS, coming and going from work on my own schedule. No lifting or heavy physical work... just working in the lab or in my office or testing stuff out in the field.

What they don't see is me sitting at home at night working until 4am on designs and reports because you have to have 110% commitment to being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. These jobs eat you friggin life!
But sometimes wives don't see that either... all they see is a paycheck... that is why I have an ex wife...I was never around...always working while I worked my way up.

Now I have a really awesome wife who gets it and works as hard as I do on her career, but we do know how to take time for ourselves by going to the other end of the spectrum. We hid out in the Grand Canyon for a week rafting and rock climbing/hiking etc. We travel internationally and camp out alot. This year we will be going to Italy and Scotland for a week each.

What people don't see is that to have that fun and take those trips....we bust our asses the rest of the time. I also have my two kids to take care of, which at ages 12 & 13 is no picnic. My wife and I take every Saturday and dedicate every minute to the kids. Family game night in the evening followed by a movie. The rest of the week I can only give them 2-3 hours a day, most of it being spent doing homework or a quick pickup game of basketball outside or a game of mortal combat on the PS3 if it's a low homework night.

The time I spend with my friends and intimate time with my wife often has to be scheduled in around everything else or late at night, which doesn't give much time for sleep.

My dad used to come home and be able to shoot pool with his friends from 4pm until whenever.

So....there is a price to pay. If you want me to work for less, I just won't bother. I would rather enjoy more of my life, but for the moment I have to make as much as I can to overcome the coming hyper-inflation which is going to kill this country once and for all. I figure I'll lose my job around then and I'll have all the time in the world to relax.

Like I said in my earlier posts about being prepared... I'm getting prepared. Precious metals. Ammo. Seeds. Stocking up on deer meat form the Michigan woods on Monday. I'll be sitting in a freezing cold deer blind next week stocking up for the year... we ARE going to need it when the dollar crashes. Fair warning to those of you who believe some sort of recovery is around the corner!

Originally posted by kidkboom

A few questions....

1. Why would there be nobody who wants to be the surgeon because of interest in surgery alone? When Tesla glued all those moths to his machine in grade school, nobody was paying him. He just wanted to see if it would work, see what he could do. Why are these sorts of people bred out? Is the size of our televisions really more important than our actual ambitions in life, those things we will be remembered for?

Okay, I'll admit you have me there. There would still be a few, pure of heart people who would go into a career such as that, simply for the interest, or the idea of helping people. But unofrtunatly I don't think that would be the case for very many... we all know how much people like to complain if their pay isn't right, even those in jobs others would deem very interesting and worthwhile. Need I mention the firefighters strike here in the UK.

I can't comprehend saying I wont work because of money issues when my job involves saving someones life, and not doing my job may lead to deaths. But it is what happened :/ I don't like it either but it's a sad truth.

2. Why is there a mill of consumerism supporting the owner and lord of the factory, who subsequently employs workers to do very little of anything, knowing that position will make it easier to dwindle their 5 into 4, 3, 2, 1, and then soon have them working for their food alone, like an indentured servant or a chain-gang rock-breaker? Once again, is the size of our television truly more important than our ambitions for the correct workings of the world?

Honestly? Not because we like that owner and think it's fair, but because we wish WE were in that position making all the large amounts of money. Again, this of course isn't true for everyone, but for a great many I fear it is. I myself know money isn't everything, but I like my xbox, and my comfy bed, and the computer I'm typing on...I could have given that money all to charity and been fairly happy only having enough to get by. But us humans don't like to be without.

We buy our small car...and wish we owned a big organisation so we could own a much bigger better car. Selfish perhaps, but no more selfish than the fact that we bought that small car when we don't NEED it in many cases.

I think one of the mistakes in logic that we've / I've made, is thinking that people, if they were not paid, would do nothing and produce nothing. I know how instrinsic wampum for survival goods is to mankind's happiness, but I say there's a space between doing what you must to stay fed, and doing what you'd like to be doing or what you're good at... in that space there should be room for us to be doing a little bit of both... What I don't like is the system of Locks and Stops - what is the measure of a man? How much difference is there between Joe Redblood and Lord Winthrop Blueblood III, Esq? How much of that difference is tangible, and how much is in the bias of the eyes of the beholder?

I agree, it's an easy mistake to make, but perhaps not entirely flawed. If nobody was payed to be a firefighter, I am sure many people would still help put out fires that were not on their own property...but would anyone sit there all day doing the menial job of putting together electronic appliances, or making sure your hospital room was quite as clean as it should be? I wish so, but I frankly don;t have that much confidence in us as a race and depressing as that sounds...I think even I may eventually see some unfairness if I earned the same amount running into burning buildings everyday as the man who makes pretty cupcakes at the bakers.

I make 132.4 dollars a week . I love making nothing

What we have is an unfair system.
what we need is a fair system.

I don't think money should even exist. Money is the root of all evil

First off, everyone has the basic needs. Housing, Food, clothing, clean air and water.
these basic needs should be met for every last human being on earth. It's totally possible.

secondly I think education is vital but our education system is seriously outdated. It's very inefficient. I could study on the internet from dawn to dusk and no matter how knowledgeable I become, it's useless because I won't have a diploma saying I know what I know. Who cares about a stupid piece of paper.. well.. businesses apparently. What we need to do is create a web based education system where anyone can go and learn anything they want and take a competency test and have a record of what they know and how well they know it. This does away with the need for schools, bussing, colleges etc. All that becomes an unnecessary expense.

next, people need jobs. even if money never existed as a concept, people would still work. I always wanted to be an artist and even though nobody seems to want to hire me and pay me money to do this, I still make art, for myself, for my friends etc. The problem with our society is that people work jobs they hate just to meet those basic needs I mentioned. I hate my job, I barely put any effort in because I hate it and I'll make the same meager slave wage whether I try hard or don't so who cares. If I was making artwork professionally and getting paid to do so I would work hard and love it. See that's more efficient. So I think what we need to do is let everyone do the job they love limited only by their competency from taking the web based tests I previously mentioned.

So in this system I envisioned Everyone has all their basic needs for survival met by default, education is free for all and you are only limited by your own motivation to learn and your mental capabilities, You work a job you love out of the joy of doing what you love.

I'm trying to think of pitfalls in my idea. I guess nobody would want to do the dirty jobs. Who says "I want to be a sewage treatment plant operator when I grow up!" There would be lots of artists and scientists and doctors and firemen etc but filling some jobs would be tough.

It would be weird, everything being free in a classless society of equals. It's fair though. Very fair.