It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
You think you deserve to earn more than $200k a year?
page: 26share:
I've only got as far as page 2, but have seen the 'Lazy' word thrown back and forth.
I agree that laziness has a massive part to play in this, but let us make one thing perfectly clear.
We're not talking about people being too lazy to work. There are millions who break their backs for peanuts.
We're talking about people being too lazy to make the sacrifices needed, and being disciplined enough to better their education and situation in life.
I used to work hard for my money, bloody hard. But at the end of the day it was for peanuts of a wage. I used to think life just wasn't fair on me. I literally would have rather broke my back with hard work than better my education because the short term benefits just did not appeal to me.
After becoming a father I realised I had to sacrifice my wants, and my desires to better my future. And to do that requires sacrificing x amount of years of your life.
When I achieve my masters, I hope to be in the higher earning category. So when I see people whining about circumstances it does ire me. Because if I can do it, anyone can do it. And trust me, I was lower than low.
It is all about choice.
If you choose to break your back for peanuts then fine, that's your choice.
As long as your happy, that's what matters.
But if you break your back for peanuts and whine, than it's nothing more than your own fault as you make the choices you live.
I say deal with it
I agree that laziness has a massive part to play in this, but let us make one thing perfectly clear.
We're not talking about people being too lazy to work. There are millions who break their backs for peanuts.
We're talking about people being too lazy to make the sacrifices needed, and being disciplined enough to better their education and situation in life.
I used to work hard for my money, bloody hard. But at the end of the day it was for peanuts of a wage. I used to think life just wasn't fair on me. I literally would have rather broke my back with hard work than better my education because the short term benefits just did not appeal to me.
After becoming a father I realised I had to sacrifice my wants, and my desires to better my future. And to do that requires sacrificing x amount of years of your life.
When I achieve my masters, I hope to be in the higher earning category. So when I see people whining about circumstances it does ire me. Because if I can do it, anyone can do it. And trust me, I was lower than low.
It is all about choice.
If you choose to break your back for peanuts then fine, that's your choice.
As long as your happy, that's what matters.
But if you break your back for peanuts and whine, than it's nothing more than your own fault as you make the choices you live.
I say deal with it
dont have the time to read all 26 pages but I get the drift. Just a few points to make.
1. This is not a zero sum game. simply because I make a large amount of money does not mean that I took that money away from someone else. Wealth can be created. The fact that my slice of the pie is bigger than yours does not mean that we cant bake another pie.
2. Just as there are cars that cost more than others and houses that cost more than others ect ect ect, so to there are people with skills and abilities that cost more than others. People will pay more for quality.
1. This is not a zero sum game. simply because I make a large amount of money does not mean that I took that money away from someone else. Wealth can be created. The fact that my slice of the pie is bigger than yours does not mean that we cant bake another pie.
2. Just as there are cars that cost more than others and houses that cost more than others ect ect ect, so to there are people with skills and abilities that cost more than others. People will pay more for quality.
Originally posted by Phedreus
dont have the time to read all 26 pages but I get the drift. Just a few points to make.
1. This is not a zero sum game. simply because I make a large amount of money does not mean that I took that money away from someone else. Wealth can be created. The fact that my slice of the pie is bigger than yours does not mean that we cant bake another pie.
2. Just as there are cars that cost more than others and houses that cost more than others ect ect ect, so to there are people with skills and abilities that cost more than others. People will pay more for quality.
Few words, but lots of truth, couldn't agree more. Far better to approach life as it is, with endless possibilities, tremendous abundance, and give the whining a rest.
The idea that there was always a "winner", and a "loser" in every transaction is an old one, but it is incorrect. There really is such a thing as "win / win". Both parties should feel that they are the better for doing business, else they would have done differently.
Is there injustice, and "unfairness", and whatnot in the world? Of course, but it is more of a philosophical or theological matter, Problem of Evil and all that.
Vilifying people simply because they have more, or are more talented is also rather old, but it speaks more about those making those judgments than those who are being vilified. People need to stop looking around and complaining about how others have "more", and their lot is so dismal, etc. Such an attitude is useless at best, but potentially very destructive, if I was to judge by the young revolutionaries posting in this thread, who imagine that violence will solve their problems.
Of course, there are more problems than just the one staring back from the mirror, but it might still be the biggest one we each face, as individuals.
On a constructive note, perhaps after we have dealt with the "man in the mirror", could we then go out and find "real" problems that could use our attention? Of course!
A far bigger problem than the ancient Haves and Have-nots, is the fact that "some" of the Haves are making active war against us. I feel like it's a waste of time being distracted by your neighbor driving a better car, or the professional earning a "decent" living. Look at what the banksters have been doing to the world for centuries now! THAT would be a better thing to focus on, spread that message (or learn about it first).
JR
The Emperor: [to the Senate] In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic
Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.
[Senate fills with enormous applause]
Padmé: [to Bail Organa] So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.
So I see the younger generation has been well brainwashed by the schools of the 90's. Congrats.
[Senate fills with enormous applause]
Padmé: [to Bail Organa] So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.
So I see the younger generation has been well brainwashed by the schools of the 90's. Congrats.
"Where they lead - you will follow
Well I guess that's just the way it goes.
And if you look away
You'll be doing what they say
And if you look alive
You'll be singled out and tried
If you take home anything
Let it be your will to think
The more cynical you become
The better off you'll be."
Well I guess that's just the way it goes.
And if you look away
You'll be doing what they say
And if you look alive
You'll be singled out and tried
If you take home anything
Let it be your will to think
The more cynical you become
The better off you'll be."
edit on 13-11-2010 by kidkboom because: removed link
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Originally posted by Phedreus
dont have the time to read all 26 pages but I get the drift. Just a few points to make.
1. This is not a zero sum game. simply because I make a large amount of money does not mean that I took that money away from someone else. Wealth can be created. The fact that my slice of the pie is bigger than yours does not mean that we cant bake another pie.
2. Just as there are cars that cost more than others and houses that cost more than others ect ect ect, so to there are people with skills and abilities that cost more than others. People will pay more for quality.
Few words, but lots of truth, couldn't agree more. Far better to approach life as it is, with endless possibilities, tremendous abundance, and give the whining a rest.
The idea that there was always a "winner", and a "loser" in every transaction is an old one, but it is incorrect. There really is such a thing as "win / win". Both parties should feel that they are the better for doing business, else they would have done differently.
Is there injustice, and "unfairness", and whatnot in the world? Of course, but it is more of a philosophical or theological matter, Problem of Evil and all that.
Vilifying people simply because they have more, or are more talented is also rather old, but it speaks more about those making those judgments than those who are being vilified. People need to stop looking around and complaining about how others have "more", and their lot is so dismal, etc. Such an attitude is useless at best, but potentially very destructive, if I was to judge by the young revolutionaries posting in this thread, who imagine that violence will solve their problems.
Of course, there are more problems than just the one staring back from the mirror, but it might still be the biggest one we each face, as individuals.
On a constructive note, perhaps after we have dealt with the "man in the mirror", could we then go out and find "real" problems that could use our attention? Of course!
A far bigger problem than the ancient Haves and Have-nots, is the fact that "some" of the Haves are making active war against us. I feel like it's a waste of time being distracted by your neighbor driving a better car, or the professional earning a "decent" living. Look at what the banksters have been doing to the world for centuries now! THAT would be a better thing to focus on, spread that message (or learn about it first).
JR
Today's elitist neighbor is tomorrow's bilderberg bankster. Nepotic, inbreeding old-boy networks are NOT democracy, not only not fair, but a mockery of the system of fair capitalism we purport.
Think of all the different types of business you can't engage in in america without paying somebody first. Think of all the entrepreneurships that are controlled by big business and government interference. There is no more free market. The people with the money NOW have put a stop to it. They've infected the country's CNS and the scariest part is, if they pay YOU (edit: as in society) enough, you'll shut up and agree with them.
And at the end of this game of iniquity, a whole lot of people die. I'm not bitching out of a desire for money. I'm bitching because I foresee the rift, and the violence and cold-hearted ignorance that it breeds, and the horrible end it's pushing us towards.
May we all see the light before it's too late.
edit on 13-11-2010 by kidkboom because: "as in society"
reply to post by byteshertz
wow! Alot of people take offense to that. I worked hard for ten years to finally get my own restaurant and then from then on it was 100 hours a week for a while. So who are you to say that the money isnt deserved?
I dot have to work that much any more but i still put in my hard time. And it's not always oneself that should work hard for their money, it's putting their money and other people to work for them.
" I would rather make 1% off of 100 peoples efforts then 100% of my own" - j.p. getty
that quote changed the way i think about work. sure , not everybody can own their own business but it shouldnt discourage one from trying to suceed at make alot of money at whatever they do.
If your unhappy with the amount of money you make then find another job or keep changing jobs until your happy with your income, don't sit there and feel sorry for yourself and get mad at others. hate the game not the players.
wow! Alot of people take offense to that. I worked hard for ten years to finally get my own restaurant and then from then on it was 100 hours a week for a while. So who are you to say that the money isnt deserved?
I dot have to work that much any more but i still put in my hard time. And it's not always oneself that should work hard for their money, it's putting their money and other people to work for them.
" I would rather make 1% off of 100 peoples efforts then 100% of my own" - j.p. getty
that quote changed the way i think about work. sure , not everybody can own their own business but it shouldnt discourage one from trying to suceed at make alot of money at whatever they do.
If your unhappy with the amount of money you make then find another job or keep changing jobs until your happy with your income, don't sit there and feel sorry for yourself and get mad at others. hate the game not the players.
reply to post by joeshsamp hate the game not the players....
Wow, did you really mean that? There wouldn't be the game without the players and thats the problem! I dont care about how hard you worked to get all
your useless paper money I care about the fact that the group that printed off your paper money is using your taxes to poison babies in africa, to
fund wars in the middle east, TO BLOW UP CHILDREN! I care that you are aiding and abetting criminals simply by playing their game!
reply to post by joeshsamp
What you have to understand Joe, is that this battle has been going on since the beginning of time. The more successful hunter/gathers I am sure were given the 'boo-hoo, woe is me stink eye" by the less successful.
What many of the whiners in this thread are suggesting is, people make too much money, and they need to give some to me.
Well that's a noble concept, but If I create a novel new invention, say, a new mode of transportation, or a totally new and revolutionary computer, but I know all or most of the profits from that are going to be taken and redistributed to the "pissed off poor", I wouldn't bring it to market. I would throw that innovative idea in the garbage.
It's one thing if I choose to give freely of my profits to the less fortunate, but to be told my idea is worth 200k and I am going to like it?
I don't think so.
There are countless stories of people showing up on the shores of American with a couple of bucks in their pocket, and working, as you said 100 hour weeks to build something. And then for them to be told years later that they make too much?
I can't even believe this is a conversation in these forums.
What you have to understand Joe, is that this battle has been going on since the beginning of time. The more successful hunter/gathers I am sure were given the 'boo-hoo, woe is me stink eye" by the less successful.
What many of the whiners in this thread are suggesting is, people make too much money, and they need to give some to me.
Well that's a noble concept, but If I create a novel new invention, say, a new mode of transportation, or a totally new and revolutionary computer, but I know all or most of the profits from that are going to be taken and redistributed to the "pissed off poor", I wouldn't bring it to market. I would throw that innovative idea in the garbage.
It's one thing if I choose to give freely of my profits to the less fortunate, but to be told my idea is worth 200k and I am going to like it?
I don't think so.
There are countless stories of people showing up on the shores of American with a couple of bucks in their pocket, and working, as you said 100 hour weeks to build something. And then for them to be told years later that they make too much?
I can't even believe this is a conversation in these forums.
reply to post by byteshertz
Money is necessary to live a good life, anyone who argues with that is delusional. Anyone who is on the top deserves to be on the top, you have to pay the cost to be the boss. The more money you have the more problems you have believe that it doesnt get easer, the benefits do get nicer yes but it is still stress.
Why be mad about the pyramid scheme of economice in capitalism? It is a system everyone chooses to play and if you cannot hack it, tough. The game is fair not rigged for those willing to sacrifice enough of themselves to become something new.
No one holds you back from riches but yourself. There are ways to overcome "brokeness" or the defeatist mentality that is the main reason why the system is failing. People do not believe in the system anymore and want change. What change can come from this catastrophic drop in the dollar? More of the same Im telling you, nothing will ever change. More than one hundred years and people still cannot adapt, amazing.
Sometimes I agree with the elitists and their eugenics programs. The human race is a majority of weak dna structures compounded with sub social systems and cultures that promote dissension and anarchy. No one is stopping anyone from becoming wealthy. How does Rockefeller keep you from becoming Illuminati? " cant beat em join em" lol stop whining and get money.
Money is necessary to live a good life, anyone who argues with that is delusional. Anyone who is on the top deserves to be on the top, you have to pay the cost to be the boss. The more money you have the more problems you have believe that it doesnt get easer, the benefits do get nicer yes but it is still stress.
Why be mad about the pyramid scheme of economice in capitalism? It is a system everyone chooses to play and if you cannot hack it, tough. The game is fair not rigged for those willing to sacrifice enough of themselves to become something new.
No one holds you back from riches but yourself. There are ways to overcome "brokeness" or the defeatist mentality that is the main reason why the system is failing. People do not believe in the system anymore and want change. What change can come from this catastrophic drop in the dollar? More of the same Im telling you, nothing will ever change. More than one hundred years and people still cannot adapt, amazing.
Sometimes I agree with the elitists and their eugenics programs. The human race is a majority of weak dna structures compounded with sub social systems and cultures that promote dissension and anarchy. No one is stopping anyone from becoming wealthy. How does Rockefeller keep you from becoming Illuminati? " cant beat em join em" lol stop whining and get money.
reply to post by kidkboom
I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying, but what has "democracy" got to do with anything? There's actually no such thing these days, it's just a word.
Speaking of words, I notice a lot of people repeating words like "fair". Again, no such thing!
Folks, these are philosophical questions, as I mentioned before. Look around, there is no "fair" in Nature, it is dog-eat-dog. We don't have to like it, but let's not swoon into fantasies, things are the way they are.
As far as regular people becoming true elites, no, that doesn't really happen as often as we might like to imagine. As you pointed out, nepotism, good 'ole boy clubs, etc., they will make sure that the blue bloods and their chosen, continue to rule, as they have for centuries. If you really want in to their crowd, you better bring something to the table.
"Free market", another fantasy. No, there isn't one. Best get over it. Our masters are in charge, and only allow us to indulge in silly fantasy because it amuses them.
As far as "agreeing with them", you, and pretty much most everyone, already does. We just may not have admitted it to ourselves just yet.
You mention cold-hearted ignorance. Ignorance is a major problem, but it is a major tool of the elite. They keep us dumb, they prop up this "enemy", or that, and most just follow the master's hand, as he moves the other, laughing the whole while.
Like in this thread. Someone comes up with another enemy, people who earn "too much". It's ludicrous of course, $200K is NOTHING. Our masters wipe their behinds with this money, and yet, they need not worry about being identified as the "problem", because they have their slaves at each other's throats already!
"I'm a better slave than you are! No you're not! I'm allowed in the House! You're a smelly field slave!"
What is the "end" of this game? It is what our Masters have yearned for for millenia. They want their Utopia, a place where they need not fear anymore, where their every whim is satisfied, where the slave finally knows his place, and best of all, a place where the slave will NEVER rise again!
This "Utopia", from our perspective, would be better called a Plantation. THAT"S our children's future, and all the whiners doing nothing, learning nothing, being "useless eaters" (as our masters call most of us), will basically DESERVE their lot when it finally arrives, full-force.
Do I also hope my fellows will one day "see the light?" Sure, but let's get real. We're too busy worrying about whether Massa thinks we're a better slave than our neighbor!
JR
Today's elitist neighbor is tomorrow's bilderberg bankster. Nepotic, inbreeding old-boy networks are NOT democracy, not only not fair, but a mockery of the system of fair capitalism we purport.
I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying, but what has "democracy" got to do with anything? There's actually no such thing these days, it's just a word.
Speaking of words, I notice a lot of people repeating words like "fair". Again, no such thing!
Folks, these are philosophical questions, as I mentioned before. Look around, there is no "fair" in Nature, it is dog-eat-dog. We don't have to like it, but let's not swoon into fantasies, things are the way they are.
As far as regular people becoming true elites, no, that doesn't really happen as often as we might like to imagine. As you pointed out, nepotism, good 'ole boy clubs, etc., they will make sure that the blue bloods and their chosen, continue to rule, as they have for centuries. If you really want in to their crowd, you better bring something to the table.
Think of all the different types of business you can't engage in in america without paying somebody first. Think of all the entrepreneurships that are controlled by big business and government interference. There is no more free market. The people with the money NOW have put a stop to it. They've infected the country's CNS and the scariest part is, if they pay YOU (edit: as in society) enough, you'll shut up and agree with them. And at the end of this game of iniquity, a whole lot of people die. I'm not bitching out of a desire for money. I'm bitching because I foresee the rift, and the violence and cold-hearted ignorance that it breeds, and the horrible end it's pushing us towards. May we all see the light before it's too late.
"Free market", another fantasy. No, there isn't one. Best get over it. Our masters are in charge, and only allow us to indulge in silly fantasy because it amuses them.
As far as "agreeing with them", you, and pretty much most everyone, already does. We just may not have admitted it to ourselves just yet.
You mention cold-hearted ignorance. Ignorance is a major problem, but it is a major tool of the elite. They keep us dumb, they prop up this "enemy", or that, and most just follow the master's hand, as he moves the other, laughing the whole while.
Like in this thread. Someone comes up with another enemy, people who earn "too much". It's ludicrous of course, $200K is NOTHING. Our masters wipe their behinds with this money, and yet, they need not worry about being identified as the "problem", because they have their slaves at each other's throats already!
"I'm a better slave than you are! No you're not! I'm allowed in the House! You're a smelly field slave!"
What is the "end" of this game? It is what our Masters have yearned for for millenia. They want their Utopia, a place where they need not fear anymore, where their every whim is satisfied, where the slave finally knows his place, and best of all, a place where the slave will NEVER rise again!
This "Utopia", from our perspective, would be better called a Plantation. THAT"S our children's future, and all the whiners doing nothing, learning nothing, being "useless eaters" (as our masters call most of us), will basically DESERVE their lot when it finally arrives, full-force.
Do I also hope my fellows will one day "see the light?" Sure, but let's get real. We're too busy worrying about whether Massa thinks we're a better slave than our neighbor!
JR
Originally posted by JR MacBeth
reply to post by kidkboom
Today's elitist neighbor is tomorrow's bilderberg bankster. Nepotic, inbreeding old-boy networks are NOT democracy, not only not fair, but a mockery of the system of fair capitalism we purport.
I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying, but what has "democracy" got to do with anything? There's actually no such thing these days, it's just a word.
Speaking of words, I notice a lot of people repeating words like "fair". Again, no such thing!
Folks, these are philosophical questions, as I mentioned before. Look around, there is no "fair" in Nature, it is dog-eat-dog. We don't have to like it, but let's not swoon into fantasies, things are the way they are.
As far as regular people becoming true elites, no, that doesn't really happen as often as we might like to imagine. As you pointed out, nepotism, good 'ole boy clubs, etc., they will make sure that the blue bloods and their chosen, continue to rule, as they have for centuries. If you really want in to their crowd, you better bring something to the table.
Think of all the different types of business you can't engage in in america without paying somebody first. Think of all the entrepreneurships that are controlled by big business and government interference. There is no more free market. The people with the money NOW have put a stop to it. They've infected the country's CNS and the scariest part is, if they pay YOU (edit: as in society) enough, you'll shut up and agree with them. And at the end of this game of iniquity, a whole lot of people die. I'm not bitching out of a desire for money. I'm bitching because I foresee the rift, and the violence and cold-hearted ignorance that it breeds, and the horrible end it's pushing us towards. May we all see the light before it's too late.
"Free market", another fantasy. No, there isn't one. Best get over it. Our masters are in charge, and only allow us to indulge in silly fantasy because it amuses them.
As far as "agreeing with them", you, and pretty much most everyone, already does. We just may not have admitted it to ourselves just yet.
You mention cold-hearted ignorance. Ignorance is a major problem, but it is a major tool of the elite. They keep us dumb, they prop up this "enemy", or that, and most just follow the master's hand, as he moves the other, laughing the whole while.
Like in this thread. Someone comes up with another enemy, people who earn "too much". It's ludicrous of course, $200K is NOTHING. Our masters wipe their behinds with this money, and yet, they need not worry about being identified as the "problem", because they have their slaves at each other's throats already!
"I'm a better slave than you are! No you're not! I'm allowed in the House! You're a smelly field slave!"
What is the "end" of this game? It is what our Masters have yearned for for millenia. They want their Utopia, a place where they need not fear anymore, where their every whim is satisfied, where the slave finally knows his place, and best of all, a place where the slave will NEVER rise again!
This "Utopia", from our perspective, would be better called a Plantation. THAT"S our children's future, and all the whiners doing nothing, learning nothing, being "useless eaters" (as our masters call most of us), will basically DESERVE their lot when it finally arrives, full-force.
Do I also hope my fellows will one day "see the light?" Sure, but let's get real. We're too busy worrying about whether Massa thinks we're a better slave than our neighbor!
JR
Concerning the 'democracy' bit - in the general arena of capitalism, the idea that there are some successful bodies and some less successful doesn't surprise or alarm me. I will for sake of exposition call them "Small Fish" and "Middle Fish." But "Big Fish" is the massive battlecruiser corporate body, who has through influence of many different kinds of monetary, social, military and clandestine powers in their possession, managed to skirt the checks and balances whose intent was to protect us from exactly the norm todsy: That those systems of Voting and other such things that allow the Populace to express their opinions/desires into laws for the better of the agreeing majority, have been vastly tainted. In fact, tainted is not strong enough. They've been torn down from the rafters, and a canvas strung down where they used to be, with a poor charicature of the once-standing structure painted upon it, meant to fool observers into believing nothing has changed at all.
Case in point, and again some of the following is my own opinion, so salt as desired.... When it became numerically evident a while back in america that fossil fuel supplies were REALLY running low, and that we would essentially soon have very little to none, there was a big push toward escaping gas-based production.... And if you were of a mind to study the Big Fish Tactics, this was a great chance to see their full vanguard at work - chorus lines of politicians saying queer nonsensical things that only make sense through the filter that they are the puppets of Big Fish Auto & Gas Companies (devoid of the interest in the Public that politicians are supposed to have as prerequisities) .... Lobbies to avoid changes in law... Great amounts of effort being put in by these Dinosaur car and gas companies, to maintain the status quo... And I don't have the vicegrip memory I wish I had, but I recall several attempts by the "news" to lull the mind of the public away from the topic, or to question the validity of the information in the first place..... Then as if some great thing in the sky was making fun of these terrible forces, BP happened.... For a moment, it became obvious to everyone how bad these Big Fish were and how terrible the outcome of leaving their powers unhindered would be.... But the mind of the public is ever so fickle, and a hundred times moreso now that little electronic devices rob great portions of the average westerner's attention, not to mention providing info right from the mouth of the beast that they haven't yet developed the faculties to question... Somehow, this very unimportant to the matters at hand person, Obama, became the center of that ire, and I am actually still quite flabbergasted how that happened - I would love to know how that was constructed!! - Whether or not Obama is in league with the Big Fish from the get-go, or simply being put to the plough by their great Bigby's Hand, is irrelevant - It still stands in my memory as a wonderful example of those nasty Big Fish.
If I were to sit here today and condone the segregative mindset of the Middle Fish, I would be playing into the hands of the Big Fish. And though I respect your opinion, I do NOT agree with the mASTERS. I am clearly in no position to rival any of these mammoth forces today. And, I am alone. But in another sense, I am not alone. And in that sense, a potential army of like-minded wakers stands with me.
The most important thing we can do, from this position, is to come to a common ground, though we don't all share the same view on the details - common enough that our combined footing becomes as stable as it can. That way, when that switch comes all at once, the Plantation you refer to, there will be hope. Many people think I'm crazy when I speak like this, and that's okay for now. But Mr. Orwell was a lot less far off from accurate than he ever knew.
And if you're like me, you've not forgotten: "If there is hope, it lie in the plebes."
Originally posted by Darkrunner
reply to post by joeshsamp
What you have to understand Joe, is that this battle has been going on since the beginning of time. The more successful hunter/gathers I am sure were given the 'boo-hoo, woe is me stink eye" by the less successful.
What many of the whiners in this thread are suggesting is, people make too much money, and they need to give some to me.
Well that's a noble concept, but If I create a novel new invention, say, a new mode of transportation, or a totally new and revolutionary computer, but I know all or most of the profits from that are going to be taken and redistributed to the "pissed off poor", I wouldn't bring it to market. I would throw that innovative idea in the garbage.
It's one thing if I choose to give freely of my profits to the less fortunate, but to be told my idea is worth 200k and I am going to like it?
I don't think so.
There are countless stories of people showing up on the shores of American with a couple of bucks in their pocket, and working, as you said 100 hour weeks to build something. And then for them to be told years later that they make too much?
I can't even believe this is a conversation in these forums.
If you WERE one of those hunter/gatherers, and you killed a mammoth, and brought it (somehow) back to your hut in your camp, would you "throw in the garbage" any portion of that mammoth that would rot before you got a chance to eat it yourself, as opposed to share with the tribe? Or would you subsist on squirrel meat, knowing that you can ingest every morsel of that yourself?
reply to post by Red_xi
couldn't have said it better myself. if you have a high school diploma, don't expect to make 6 figures. if you work your ass off and get your degrees, you've earned your pay. i'm a college drop out. my brother is a lawyer. his salary dwarfs mine. but that was my (bad) choice, and i have to live with it. we didn't come from wealth. my dad was a nyc school teacher. we went to public school and city college. the opportunity is there, but you have to take it and the obstacles that come with it. those who persevere are rewarded. such is the way of the universe.
couldn't have said it better myself. if you have a high school diploma, don't expect to make 6 figures. if you work your ass off and get your degrees, you've earned your pay. i'm a college drop out. my brother is a lawyer. his salary dwarfs mine. but that was my (bad) choice, and i have to live with it. we didn't come from wealth. my dad was a nyc school teacher. we went to public school and city college. the opportunity is there, but you have to take it and the obstacles that come with it. those who persevere are rewarded. such is the way of the universe.
Originally posted by fonenyc
reply to post by byteshertz
Money is necessary to live a good life, anyone who argues with that is delusional. Anyone who is on the top deserves to be on the top, you have to pay the cost to be the boss. The more money you have the more problems you have believe that it doesnt get easer, the benefits do get nicer yes but it is still stress.
Why be mad about the pyramid scheme of economice in capitalism? It is a system everyone chooses to play and if you cannot hack it, tough. The game is fair not rigged for those willing to sacrifice enough of themselves to become something new.
No one holds you back from riches but yourself. There are ways to overcome "brokeness" or the defeatist mentality that is the main reason why the system is failing. People do not believe in the system anymore and want change. What change can come from this catastrophic drop in the dollar? More of the same Im telling you, nothing will ever change. More than one hundred years and people still cannot adapt, amazing.
Sometimes I agree with the elitists and their eugenics programs. The human race is a majority of weak dna structures compounded with sub social systems and cultures that promote dissension and anarchy. No one is stopping anyone from becoming wealthy. How does Rockefeller keep you from becoming Illuminati? " cant beat em join em" lol stop whining and get money.
Why is it everyone who argues your side of the argument (that the system is good as it is and any who ask for change are "whiners") always has to fall back on cliches fit for bumperstickers and job fair posters? "If you can't hack it, tough" "Pay the cost to be the boss" and all this... I get the impression that nobody is doing any original thinking, rather just ascribing to, and then repeating, the things they were told ...
The people who have money - not the billionaires but again, the Middle Fish, 200k-ers - they snap to an immediately defensive attitude when we merely mention OUR OPINION that they may not deserve the amount they get paid. They quickly move to name-calling from what is meant to be debate, and even in this thread I've seen evidence that valid points against their argument are ignored entirely.
I am intelligent, enough that a catch-phrase will not divert my attention from an issue. Neither will being called a "whiner," or "lazy," or "pissed off poor," or any other such derogatory noun. Some of the things you alluded to in the quoted post are blanket statements that fall apart against details: firstly, everyone does not CHOOSE to play the "pyramid scheme of economics in capitalism." The fact is, once upon a time america was just one country among many, but modern times have brought so much of the american system to the rest of the world that there really is no choice about capitalism. If you are making the suggestion that China and their communism is an alternative option, I would disagree, not only because it is the same pyramid with different names and places, but also because I have doubts that they're letting capitalists "join up." And on top of that, just because I disagree with the way things are here (US) doesn't mean that ANY other regime is better than this one. In fact, I don't think much would change by emigrating - turning a cheek to a problem does not in my opinion dissuade it from continuing. My hand won't be forced into fighting, or running, or accepting/condoning the way things are - contrary to popular belief, they can be changed, and problems can be resolved. I was born in America, but I did not sign a contract upon my birth. There was no negotiation. I became subject to its rules.
Now, if its rules were being abided by, it would be one thing. But what I'm referring to is a very subtle, clandestine movement to close the holes of opportunity which also double as conduits for truth and freedom, holes which the Big Fish have nearly occluded in the last several decades. Rules and their meanings are being covertly rewritten - inched forward like the shadow on a sundial - and what I am on about, the end I am hoping to achieve, is that people galvanize their courage, enough to a) see the problem before us, i.e. stop denying its very existence; and b) have the courage to say what they see. I am not touting some sort of mass revolution, and I am most certainly not complaining because I don't like not having money. In the short term, what you say about money IS true, that it can be gotten by those who want it bad enough. But in the long term, those holes are still being closed, and as the methods of getting money are pushed either into the control of those who already have it, or into the realm of illegality where those citizens who make money can be targetted and crushed, and the money brought back into the folds of the Big Fish - the place we're HEADED is a very bad one.
Many people have explained that they've succeeded through hard work. First of all, congratulations to you. But if you did come up this way, you surely noted that it was a little bit harder for you than it was for your predecessor a couple decades ago. Same with his predecessor, and so on back to the spot where these Big Fish entered the arena. Following that logic, it's obvious, but the Big Fish are intrinsically involved with the closing of the holes of opportunity.
Once, there was gold. To transact with the gold, one needed only a trader to transact with, and the gold itself.
Then, there were dollars. To transact with dollars, one needed the trader, the dollar, and the Fort Knox establishment that held the gold.
Then, the gold standard was abolished. To transact with dollars then, one needed the trader, the dollar, Fort Knox, and the government to guarantee that they would cover what Knox no longer could.
Then, there was credit. To trade with credit, one needs a trader, a dollar, Fort Knox, the government's guarantee, the creditor's guarantee, the technology behind the credit system, and of course the buy-in of the economic powers in said country also.
To put it plainly: in order for any of what they tell you is yours to truly BE yours, you have to have the APPROVAL of: merchants, military, government, moneylending houses, and technological experts, just to make a simple purchase. If these forces do not approve of you or notarize the legitimacy of your claim, then your claim is moot.
If this doesn't make plain the pattern, that the Big Fish are closing the holes, then I truly fear for the future. Because the plans being put in place now are far more subtle than that.
mo money mo problems. if you are enchanted with material things, and social status, then you'll never be happy and you'll be a complete slave to the
machine. if you provide yourself with a humble, moderate, happy existence, and don't feel compelled to spend beyond your means or "keep up with the
joneses", then you'll have no problem. people fall into the "why not me?" trap and think they are entitled to the same thing their celebrity idols
have. i spend on necessities only, i dont need material things to validate my success as a human being.
Complete nonsense. It's not a zero sum game. The money you earn is not depriving someone else. Case in point: who gets more done, a factory
worker in a fully automated, modern factory, or a slave in the stone age era? What is the ratio of the value of the goods produced between the
two?
No doubt the slave is working harder than the factory worker, but the slave is producing far less. That is the miracle of technology and innovation. It's not how hard you work but how smart you work and your work and the wealth you earn can produce dividends for others.
In theory, with enough advancements in robotics and automation, everyone could eventually retire. We need fewer and fewer actual workers to run the whole infrastructure.
Supposing you invented the cure for cancer and became a billionaire off of your invention. Did you steal that money from others? Is the rest of the world worse off because you were paid handsomely for your discovery? In fact you probably saved the world a cost equal to factors of 10s and 100s more than you got paid, due to the reduction in medical costs that accrued from your discovery.
Supposing you worked in a state of the art factory and got paid $150. However the value of the products that you produced (which didn't exist prior to your efforts), was 10 times that at $1500. Have you sucked out and forever destroyed $150 from the worlds economy, or did you just add $1350 to the total net worth of the world?
That's why its not a zero sum game and making money is not stealing from someone else. That concept is a hellish one that comes from Marxist and Leninists who want to destroy everything so that they can be your overlords. That's how the liberals prosper. They know that if they can make you unemployed and dependent upon their miserable handouts, they will have your vote for life.
No doubt the slave is working harder than the factory worker, but the slave is producing far less. That is the miracle of technology and innovation. It's not how hard you work but how smart you work and your work and the wealth you earn can produce dividends for others.
In theory, with enough advancements in robotics and automation, everyone could eventually retire. We need fewer and fewer actual workers to run the whole infrastructure.
Supposing you invented the cure for cancer and became a billionaire off of your invention. Did you steal that money from others? Is the rest of the world worse off because you were paid handsomely for your discovery? In fact you probably saved the world a cost equal to factors of 10s and 100s more than you got paid, due to the reduction in medical costs that accrued from your discovery.
Supposing you worked in a state of the art factory and got paid $150. However the value of the products that you produced (which didn't exist prior to your efforts), was 10 times that at $1500. Have you sucked out and forever destroyed $150 from the worlds economy, or did you just add $1350 to the total net worth of the world?
That's why its not a zero sum game and making money is not stealing from someone else. That concept is a hellish one that comes from Marxist and Leninists who want to destroy everything so that they can be your overlords. That's how the liberals prosper. They know that if they can make you unemployed and dependent upon their miserable handouts, they will have your vote for life.
Originally posted by SevenThunders
In theory, with enough advancements in robotics and automation, everyone could eventually retire. We need fewer and fewer actual workers to run the whole infrastructure.
This right here, combined with the flooding of illegal immigrants, and outsourcing of jobs, is what is sucking the life out of the middle class though. There is less and less jobs, but more and more people competing, allowing for the wages to drop like a rock. When two people, working two minimum wage jobs, are barely able to afford rent, and keeping food on their table, something is wrong. They are just barely scraping by, and the big companies use loopholes to get out of providing people with health coverage. Hire people as part time, and work them as full time for 2 months, then on the third month, work them one hour less than full time, and they are able to avoid offering you coverage. And even worse, now that there is so many people out of their real job, they really don't even need that loophole anymore, they just hire a crapload of people part time. The middle class needs jobs, bad.
reply to post by TKDRL
Yes immigrants are part of the problem, but it is all engineered. The problem is the basic premise of globalism. It fails to deal with the fundamental unfairness of international trade. Manufacturing will always flee to the countries with the lowest wages, worst working conditions and worst human rights records.
If governments weren't corrupt and weren't controlled by the oligarchy, there would be very high tariffs against these countries. Far fewer would be trading with China and India out of respect for their own workers. Now this globalist plan is a huge national security risk. The worst human rights countries can now afford the largest military buildups. The whole thing is designed to promote tyranny. I don't see any political party really addressing this. No doubt because they are all serving their globalist masters.
Yes immigrants are part of the problem, but it is all engineered. The problem is the basic premise of globalism. It fails to deal with the fundamental unfairness of international trade. Manufacturing will always flee to the countries with the lowest wages, worst working conditions and worst human rights records.
If governments weren't corrupt and weren't controlled by the oligarchy, there would be very high tariffs against these countries. Far fewer would be trading with China and India out of respect for their own workers. Now this globalist plan is a huge national security risk. The worst human rights countries can now afford the largest military buildups. The whole thing is designed to promote tyranny. I don't see any political party really addressing this. No doubt because they are all serving their globalist masters.
edit on 14-11-2010 by SevenThunders because: (no reason
given)
reply to post by byteshertz
Abolish Welfare and wrongful state taxes and the middle class will then be the upper class.
Abolish Welfare and wrongful state taxes and the middle class will then be the upper class.
new topics
-
One More Night at the Pig and Blanket (Time 2024)
Short Stories: 20 minutes ago -
Expert Says Parents Should Ask Babies Permission to Change Nappies.
General Chit Chat: 1 hours ago -
Hard evidence of a Royal plot on the US....if only i had proof.
ATS Skunk Works: 2 hours ago -
Do you name your cars ?
General Chit Chat: 3 hours ago -
Jim Biden Was in Business with Qatari Officials
US Political Madness: 5 hours ago -
I may have had a talk with Pope Francis about his plans for our nation
The Gray Area: 6 hours ago -
Sleep paralysis and the implantation of some weird Matrix-esque demon creature...
The Gray Area: 7 hours ago -
Say his name
US Political Madness: 7 hours ago -
There is no such thing as moonlight.
General Chit Chat: 8 hours ago -
5 probed after 18-year old girl dies as a result of having the COVID jab
Diseases and Pandemics: 9 hours ago
top topics
-
5 probed after 18-year old girl dies as a result of having the COVID jab
Diseases and Pandemics: 9 hours ago, 17 flags -
Say his name
US Political Madness: 7 hours ago, 16 flags -
Jim Biden Was in Business with Qatari Officials
US Political Madness: 5 hours ago, 12 flags -
Official denial
Diseases and Pandemics: 12 hours ago, 10 flags -
Sleep paralysis and the implantation of some weird Matrix-esque demon creature...
The Gray Area: 7 hours ago, 8 flags -
Hamas and Other Islamist Terrorist Groups Announce Support of US Campus Anti-Israel Protests
Education and Media: 13 hours ago, 7 flags -
MEGA - Let's Make Europe Great Again
Other Current Events: 12 hours ago, 7 flags -
Expert Says Parents Should Ask Babies Permission to Change Nappies.
General Chit Chat: 1 hours ago, 6 flags -
I may have had a talk with Pope Francis about his plans for our nation
The Gray Area: 6 hours ago, 6 flags -
Psychotronic Operation Rwanda Who Wants To Be A Refugee?
ATS Skunk Works: 13 hours ago, 6 flags
active topics
-
Expert Says Parents Should Ask Babies Permission to Change Nappies.
General Chit Chat • 24 • : Oldcarpy2 -
Jim Biden Was in Business with Qatari Officials
US Political Madness • 47 • : xuenchen -
Gov Kristi Noem Shot and Killed "Less Than Worthless Dog" and a 'Smelly Goat
2024 Elections • 98 • : cherokeetroy -
Say his name
US Political Madness • 30 • : TheSingleBillie -
SHORT STORY WRITERS CONTEST -- April 2024 -- TIME -- TIME2024
Short Stories • 31 • : argentus -
One More Night at the Pig and Blanket (Time 2024)
Short Stories • 2 • : argentus -
SETI chief says US has no evidence for alien technology. 'And we never have'
Aliens and UFOs • 80 • : DaydreamerX -
Hamas and Other Islamist Terrorist Groups Announce Support of US Campus Anti-Israel Protests
Education and Media • 17 • : cherokeetroy -
Hard evidence of a Royal plot on the US....if only i had proof.
ATS Skunk Works • 9 • : Oldcarpy2 -
60 minutes: “UAP”
Aliens and UFOs • 61 • : Therealbeverage