The new Banana Republic -- the USofA

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by Chai_An

 

But I thought the rich guys didn't take any risks to open up their loopholes.

Whoops.

Looks like you argued yourself out. Nice.

Stocks stabalise over the longterm, most people expect to get their return over the shorterm. Not going to happen unless you are psychic. Or lucky.

When you buy stocks for dividend you don't want a stock that varies much at all. you want a nice reliable stock (slow consistent growth), with a nice reliable payout. It may take longer to achieve good ROI's, but it provides a great deal more security.

No I really didn't because as I said loopholes are created by the government, no risks on the part of the super wealthy at least none that's going to leave them homeless with no pot to piss in. They use other people's money to make money. Stocks stabilize over the long term, sometimes. Some never stabilize. Lets not forget the possibility of stock losing their value. Lets be reasonable here, if you are middle or lower class worker you don't have the disposable money nor the time to find that perfect stock that will blow up and make you that millionaire or even make you financially comfortable at some point down the road. Then stock buying is not a viable option. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's illogical when you have necessities your income must cover leaving little money over.

That whole thing with CEO's making hell of a lot money reminds of that business card from movie "The Social Network".

That says -> " I'm CEO, bitch! "

reply to post by buddhasystem


That is if you think investing will make you rich over night. Even Warren Buffet once lost $360million

Originally posted by kykweer
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

That is if you think investing will make you rich over night. Even Warren Buffet once lost $360million

I know that. My point was exactly that investment is not in itself a panacea.

I would have to say I love making other people rich, I do it all day long at work. I get paid crap money to make sure that the company makes atleast a few hundred bucks a day. Its all a big joke folks, this has been planned out for decades. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there will be no more middle class soon, hell, I can't even think the last time the middle class America had any backbone on this country. We will see.

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by Chai_An

 

It is if you can't make the payments.

If you have no money left after paying your bills, including food, you have made some very poor choices.

These are rethoricals for everybody

If your wages are not in balance with the cost of living you will find yourself living to the penny each month. Most folks are irritated with the "big divide" between the wealthy corporate types because they're getting bonuses and the middle and lower class are getting cuts in pay or unemployment.

You have a mortgage. Is it within your means? Did you allow for market and interest rate flucuations? Did you allow for correct utility usage? Did you allow for utility flucuations (if you live deregulated)?

Are you kidding me?

You have 5 children. Children cost money. Search child care costs in you area. It will give you a guideline to how much money you will require per child per year. Did you account for healthcare costs? Insurance?

Did you account for a family slush account (for the unexpected)? Did you account for a reasonable retirement / investment schedule?
This is by no means a definitive list, infact, it is a short list off the top of my head, and will maybe account for half of your expenses.

If you haven't accounted for the cost of your life, then yes you have squandered your money.

I see people everyday struggling to make mortgage payments on houses they should have never bought, raising far more children than their income allows. And this is supposed to be my fault?

I did my homework and research. I planned my life inside my means, and I am starting to reap the rewards. Now you want me to make less, so that those that didn't plan, can have their butts covered?

He could've done all you asked and that does not guarantee he wouldn't be faced with a financial shortage.I'm not knocking what you are saying I just want to point out sometimes the best laid plans go awry. Crap happens. He may have earned more than enough to sustain himself and family with disposable cash left over initially but there are many factors that can change that situation, none of which makes him a squandering person.

Originally posted by kykweer

Originally posted by Chai_An
Buy stocks, buy stocks. How often do stocks lose their value? Stock in a company can be $20 today and a $1 tomorrow, you can't count on the stock market.

I guess thats why all successful investors have a portfolio and invest in numerous companies.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but they are seldom poor and middle class people initially.

Originally posted by peck420
If you haven't accounted for the cost of your life, then yes you have squandered your money.

Again, you failed to read the person's post. They manage to pay bills, mortgage etc, AND SAVE in 403B. How you can call this "squander" with a straight face is beyond my mental capacity.

You advocate risky investments and look down at people who can't afford these. Not cool. The thread is about how middle-class incomes stagnated for 20 years while the old money grew exponentially.

Good thread, S&F.

Definitely check out my thread that goes into detail on these matters!

Do the rich DESERVE their money?

Originally posted by peck420
So it is the rich man's fault for him being rich and you being poor?

You can't really interpret things very well, can you? How did I ever say ANYTHING about "fault?" I didn't, of course, but since you didn't like my post and my opinion you obviously decided to read some absolutely ridiculous interpretation into it because you can't argue what I actually said.

Originally posted by peck420

You have a mortgage, utilities, and food taking up so much of your income that you have nothing left?

Another self-serving, delusional interpretation. I have money left, but not for something extravagent like dividend-paying stocks. I could starve the kids and buy all the dividend-paying stocks I could for years and it would be decades before it made any increase in my income that actually made a difference.

Originally posted by peck420

You have essential stated that you have squandered your earnings, and are therefore, intitled to some of his.

Um, no, I stated what I stated. If you're not smart enough to understand it, or if you can't argue your point without reading some left-field self-serving meaning on what I said, please don't comment on my posts.

Originally posted by peck420

That is what raising his taxes to subsidise (lower) yours is in effect doing.

That's how western civilization works. We already do that. Nearly all democratic countries do. Learn a few things about the world. Besides, I don't want to lower mine. We already have huge deficits brought on mostly by tax cuts for the rich. I just want the rich to pay more.

i am going to admit, up front, that i am a total jerk, and i live in america. you would be well-advised to bring your dog inside tonite before sunset. i am so tired of the simians taking up space at this website. if the hosts of ATS WOULD BE WILLING TO DO ME A LITTLE FAVOR, and i know i haven't earned that! i have a modest proposal. find a chair. start a thread called INSANE ASYLUM and specify that posters must be anarchists or libertarians and must have an iq of at least 200. you would make mme so happy!

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by kykweer
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

That is if you think investing will make you rich over night. Even Warren Buffet once lost $360million

I know that. My point was exactly that investment is not in itself a panacea.

How about we hire a bunch of guys with guns to run around looting rich people.

It really makes me sick to my stomach reading through this thread.

The most logical and intelligent posts are the ones with zero to three stars.

Come on people, this is one of the only countries in the world that its people are free enough to do and become ANYthing they desire.

It truly is all there for the taking- no, make that EARNING.

So then, why the utter resentment and jealousy over 'the rich'?? According to reality, the majority of 'rich' people are not corrupt! Are not bankers! Are not dirty politicians! Most 'rich' people are everyday, hardworking people that are intelligent enough to pursue their dreams and to responsibly manage money! They are the small business owners, the inventors, the entrepreneurs, etc- you know, those horrible people who give YOU jobs!

Have any of you stopped to ask yourselves why this country is (perhaps soon-to-be was) so profitable? It is because we are FREE to be whatever we want - REGARDLESS of income, location, race. All of the 'rich' people that everyone seems to hate so much right now - THOSE are the people who have made your comfortable, modern lifestyle possible, fun and worth living- by giving you jobs, inventions, technology, medicine, etc.

WITH THEIR PROSPERITY, WE ALL PROSPER.

Would you all rather have the opposite of that? Where no one is free to be and do whatever they want and/or the rich must 'share' their money with the 'poor' just because? Any fool would be able to predict what would happen in a situation like that (ahem, socialism) - the rich would have no incentive to continue providing for everybody else. What is the point when the fruits of your labor are robbed? A nation like that would eat itself from the inside out. Just because rich people don't want to be robbed, it does not mean they are 'stealing' from anybody. Seriously, there is some logic on this thread that just makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

The point is, resenting rich people and continually calling for ways to tear them down- that type of attitude will ONLY act to tear YOU down as well. Either we are all free to keep the fruits of our labor and to achieve wealth - or we are all POOR because we can't bear to see others with more than we have.

Let's stop thinking like children and take responsibility for ourselves. Let’s not cut of our nose to spite our face. Without those rich people, you would most certainly suffer, or at least your lifestyle would be drastically altered. If you are mad that the 'rich' have more money than you, then GO MAKE MORE MONEY!!! It's EASY. And if you can't see that ease, then don't hate on the people who can. Why should they suffer because of your ineptitude?

Originally posted by FREEwoman
It really makes me sick to my stomach reading through this thread.

The most logical and intelligent posts are the ones with zero to three stars.

Looting is easier than working.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by kykweer
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

That is if you think investing will make you rich over night. Even Warren Buffet once lost $360million

I know that. My point was exactly that investment is not in itself a panacea.

Originally posted by Chai_An

Originally posted by kykweer

Originally posted by Chai_An
Buy stocks, buy stocks. How often do stocks lose their value? Stock in a company can be $20 today and a $1 tomorrow, you can't count on the stock market.

I guess thats why all successful investors have a portfolio and invest in numerous companies.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but they are seldom poor and middle class people initially.

Look in the end there is no easy way to get rich, some people do this for a living and can research companies in depth etc and we all don't have the time or patience, buying stock won't make you rich overnight, in the end it's a long term investment, but it is not for all of us,

I'm not saying for certain that it will make me super rich, but also don't have the drive to start my own business, the truth is, very very few of us do, then you get these other people who get super rich, because they worked day and night(I know that a few people stated that they lie around all day playing golf, which is not true, people are born to be dynamic and even if they play golf they will do so to be the BEST) to make their business a success, why bring them down?

I just know that if we have to we should strive to be more, I'm not American, but the "American Dream" of owning a house and a car and having a family in comfort should be Global, and that is shooting very very high, but why not try?

i saw the movie " SOCIAL NETWORK'. my plebian take was that he had made a billion dollars and thrown away the good woman. . spiritually, the protagonist,was a sorry loser. happily, free enterprise gives one all kinds of ways to lose the game. hope that warms the cockles of you socialist dicks

Originally posted by FREEwoman

A part of taking responsibility is to not be in denial about the world you live in. Your first point "It truly is all there for the taking- no, ", was right and those who are taking are my point. My posts were concerning those whose greed make up their existence, they want it all. Yes there are wealthy men and women who are not greedy and did build their businesses with integrity and honor they are not my subject matter. These are not the folks who received bailouts, i.e the shifting of their bad businesses practices (debts) onto the general public. So please understand I'm talking about a certain segment of the population not all wealthy folks.

So then, why the utter resentment and jealousy over 'the rich'?? According to reality, the majority of 'rich' people are not corrupt! Are not bankers! Are not dirty politicians! Most 'rich' people are everyday, hardworking people that are intelligent enough to pursue their dreams and to responsibly manage money! They are the small business owners, the inventors, the entrepreneurs, etc- you know, those horrible people who give YOU jobs!

Again I myself spoke only about a certain segment of the population not all wealthy folks. I don't see it as resentment and jealousy to point out greedy behavior and yes I know those who suffer from this type of behavior have enablers within politics. Again, small business people are not the folks I posted about, these are not those folks who received huge bonuses this year due to being bailed out by the government. Now you say rich people give jobs, lets be clear no one's giving you anything you have something they want which is labor (expertise, experience, etc) which you exchange for money so both parties needs are being met. For the record small business people tend to not be the super wealthy.

WITH THEIR PROSPERITY, WE ALL PROSPER.

Would you all rather have the opposite of that? Where no one is free to be and do whatever they want and/or the rich must 'share' their money with the 'poor' just because? Any fool would be able to predict what would happen in a situation like that (ahem, socialism) - the rich would have no incentive to continue providing for everybody else. What is the point when the fruits of your labor are robbed? A nation like that would eat itself from the inside out. Just because rich people don't want to be robbed, it does not mean they are 'stealing' from anybody. Seriously, there is some logic on this thread that just makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

Not necessary true. Again the folks I've been critical of are those who received money they didn't earn so how could anyone say their prosperity makes it possible for all to prosper? That's rather illogical, these people are enriching their and a select few bottom lines. Rich people don't want to be robbed, no one wants to be robbed including the pauper. The rich people for whom I criticize have no quorums stealing from others. Don't bang your head against the wall just know all wealthy people are not honorable good people.

edit on 10-11-2010 by Chai_An because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by kykweer


Look in the end there is no easy way to get rich, some people do this for a living and can research companies in depth etc and we all don't have the time or patience, buying stock won't make you rich overnight, in the end it's a long term investment, but it is not for all of us,

That's my point, everybody can't buy stocks nor are they the be all end all for financial survival.

Originally posted by Phenomium

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by TheBandit795
The rich use their money to create more money; they have that money work hard for them. They take calculated risks to ensure that they are practically guaranteed a ROI. They diversify their income.... They know that this is real safety and true income.

This is true...this is actually a fatal flaw in capitalism...the rich will become richer, they will do things to ensure the continued fueling of their finances, from purchasing politicians to favor their business practices, creating hedge funds, binding stock markets for controlled inflation and deflation of prices based on manipulation, and over a few generations of inheritance and status quo, the wealthy will become superrich, creating a vast divide.

the counter to this...well...there is no counter to this...the eventual progression will be a ever increasing wealth focus until the only possible outcome will be revolution or a complete failure of the economy, lock, stock, and barrel....

however, it was a fun right...say no to all socialism will equal saying yes to total financial meltdown...be it now, or in 50 years...the result is inevitable, period.

Well, that was a clever way to try to scare us all into accepting Socialism. The whole "sky is falling" technique. Nice, I bet a lot of suckers will fall for that. We are going to have economic collapse no matter what.

seriously pal, stop that. I don't see how that is a fear tactic and not a reasonable thought. no one in america is considering full blown socialism. No pure system has ever or will ever work (complete socialism, complete capitalism, ect...). A well functioning economy needs a blend of concepts. Pure bred Capitalism always leads to greater and greater inequality of wealth. Would you prefer that cops charged you per visit? how about fire men? or how about you directly funnel your own funds into the military? Maybe the we should just pool our own money together when we want a new road?
My problem with banks (or more precisely bankers) making such huge profits is the way in which it's done. First of all I suspect most bankers actually don't work all that hard. they may put in many hours of work, but they're just paper pushers who may attend high profile meetings. I personally hate jobs that are all about paper work, but would never consider it to be hard work. Banks don't innovate. And worst of all, they don't even need to use their money to make more money. Banks are allowed to do something the would be highly illegal (or just plain impossible) for anyone else to do - Fractal/ Fractional Lending. People keep talking about how ordinary folks spend above their means with credit, but I have yet to see any mention of bank spending "outside" of their means. Banks are allowed to lend out more money than they actually have (sometimes many times more than they have) which causes all sort of problems.
I recommend everyone take a minute to take a brief look at Fractal Lending.

Sorry, I know this is written like ****, I'm just tired of people yelling "SOCIALIST!". If anyone wants "true" capitalism as well as a "true" free market, enjoy the ever expanding wealth gap and jobs being shipped to other countries. 'Cause in business, it's all about the bottom line.

Disclaimer: Just in case this post is entirely misunderstood I'm advocating a healthy mix of "social" programs and "capital" business. I don't want to call the cops to report a serious crime only to be told they'll have to run a credit check first and then charge me $499.95 upon arrival. Does anyone else?