How far is to far to you on race issues?

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Op is right about how come if your black or asain you can be proud of who you are, but not whites. Whites today just have to take rubbish all over, and blacks against whites racism is not seen as a issue at all.

Originally posted by andy1033
Op is right about how come if your black or asain you can be proud of who you are, but not whites. Whites today just have to take rubbish all over, and blacks against whites racism is not seen as a issue at all.

Why would you be ''proud'' of being white ?

You didn't have anything to do with it !

Ultimately the problem with having racial pride, or even pride in general is that it poisons the mind and leads to bad behavior. In times past, every particular group that has taken control of things have fallen due to that pride, and superiority complex. In the world today, as it stands, all such will do, is ultimately lead to racism on one part or another. So if a person says black pride long enough or gets a group, all others would tend to rally against such, starting a new round of problems dealing all that comes from such. During the 1960’s when the original concept of black pride, it was not about making a statement that they were superior, it was to raise the spirits of a group who had bore the brunt of both deliberate and unintentional racism, by a country that declared them citizens, in all but rights. That was acceptable then, but now days, it should not be, as the cure for such is that a person needs to think of themselves as a Citizen first, and a particular group second. Anything else will lead to prejudice and a road that no longer needs to be traveled.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by andy1033
Op is right about how come if your black or asain you can be proud of who you are, but not whites. Whites today just have to take rubbish all over, and blacks against whites racism is not seen as a issue at all.

Why would you be ''proud'' of being white ?

You didn't have anything to do with it !

What sort of argument is that. I do not care what i am, but people who are of ethnic races can somehow treat white people like rubbish, and do what they want to them just because they are white.

How far is too far?

I say, a person should not feel guilty for celebrating their own race. They can have parties, and a individual sense of well being while being awestruck on how awesome their race is.

When it goes too far is when one race gets 1-upped to another race.

Right at the instant one race is said to be better than the other , that's when trouble starts.

The "Black people have Black pride, why cant Whites" is the most retarded argument I have ever heard.

Firstly, Black Pride, Brown Pride or White pride sentiment when you are in a country where you are a minority is entirely different to parties using the "Pride" term in a country where they are in the Majority.

Majorities don't need to have "pride" as this is something that is usually apparent in terms of democratic representation, education levels and living standards therefore the only pride that person has is in their belief of superiority over people with different color skin.

"Oh but what about those people who say Black Power or Brown Pride...a white person wouldnt be able to say white power"

Aside from the obvious hijacking of the term by extremists, white minorities around the globe in none white countries have "White Pride" in various forms and this is pretty much universally accepted by their host countries.

Lets take an extreme example to demonstrate; If for example a white person walked down the street in Lagos with white pride tattooed on their forehead what do you think would happen????

Would their be uproar, would they get lynched...??

Nope...a few people would look at it and find it amusing that this none threatening minority has decided to show their pride in this way.
If the same scene happened in Brooklyn it may be a different matter due to the implied political statement so its all about context....

The context of someone in a minority saying "X pride" ( which I think is stupid anyway as everyone is an individual) is completely different to someone in the majority doing it and this is universally accepted around the world.

It seems that the issue starts when people start imagining that only majority white countries count in this debate when there are millions of white people in majority none white countries doing EXACTLY the same thing as minorities do in Europe and America.

Originally posted by andy1033
What sort of argument is that. I do not care what i am, but people who are of ethnic races can somehow treat white people like rubbish, and do what they want to them just because they are white.

The argument ''how come black and asians are allowed to have racial pride, but not whites'' implies that it should be acceptable for white people to have racial pride.

Rather than worry about white people not having the ''right'' to express pride in something as superficial as their ethnic group, then it'd be better to turn your attention towards idiots of all races who do use their ethnicity in this way.


I know from your previous posts on ATS, that you are residing in Britain.

The UK has racial equality laws, and any breach of these laws can be treated quite severely.

If anybody of one particular race is being treated ''like rubbish'' purely because of their ethnicity, then there are legal avenues that can be followed to attain justice for any discriminatory behaviour.

It's obviously impossible to stop or prevent active racism, but there are legal measures that can be taken to punish those that are guilty of breaking anti-equality laws.


In a comparable scenario, it's just a shame that feminists can not and will not appreciate this point in regards to legislation and actualities surrounding discrimination.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
It seems that the issue starts when people start imagining that only majority white countries count in this debate when there are millions of white people in majority none white countries doing EXACTLY the same thing as minorities do in Europe and America.

edit on 25-11-2010 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-11-2010 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

Thank you for that. One of the most intelligent posts on this forum. It's kind of like when one black person does or say something, then white folks everywhere want to suddenly lump us all to together. Black folks around this country have different attitudes and opinions.. Just like white folks.

But that is something you would never know by listening to the majority or the media. AND let's not forget that this generation is also working to reverse discrimination and dumb stereotypes that were perpetuated by that same majority.

I find it funny that some white folks think that 200+ years of certain social attitudes, actual legal actions and outright hate would be cleansed in what.. around 50, 60 years?

Here's just something to consider.. Im nonwhite BTW. Im not Asian or other.. so I can only speak for my own perspective and what my family feels.. right or wrong. I mean no offense to anyone. just Giving another perspective to throw in the mix

Read the whole post before you get your panties in a wad..


My grandfather was extremely insulted when a group of black men pretended that the blacks and native americans had something in common... especially against the whites. He said a few things that really stuck with me:
He said a man or a people who smears the blood of their ancestors upon themselves to gain power, money, special treatment, reparations etc are a damned people. He has no respect for them and he has nothing in common with them.
He says a lot of blacks are as stupid as a lot of NDNs but their ignorance is in greater numbers. They do NOT want to be desegregated. That like a lot of our own folks, they do everything possible to be seen and treated different.. and set apart. If its by their own design or they are allowing outside influences to make it this way, their culture is oppositional and they do not choose to see that they are making their own hardships. They dont want equality, they want special treatment.. again, just like a lot of our own.
He said the white men did not take anything from him because what was important to him and our people cant be taken away. He said whites may have murdered our people but it wasnt he that was murdered and only the foolish hold a grandson responsible for the sins of his grandfather. He says everyones soul is their own and its wrong to make this generation pay for previous generations atrocities. The ancestors can fight it out, but none of us will grow as a people until we realize we are responsible for only our own actions and we can only hold the present generations accountable for their own present actions. He said our foolish people and the blacks at large in their american culture they have made is not a good thing and will destroy itself eventually, but will take many innocents with it. I think he meant figuratively and not a race war.. maybe he means the failure of a culture and people.
The white man or anyone else has no power over us but they do the blacks because the blacks gave their power away by allowing themselves to be injured by words.. that they give a single word power over themselves that changes their actions and feelings. ( the N word). He said its a magic .. a white man can change a black man inside with one word and turn them into a violent animal. I get what he means.. think about it a bit.. one word changes their behavior when its spoken. He said it like a power word makes their skin fall off and the inside animal is revealed.. I guess ya have to be around old crust NAs to get it sometimes! LOL!
He said the blacks have no "pride" in reality, but that they live based on lies.. things like their manufactured culture that was made by the white man. I think he meant the thug culture with women, money, material things being the height to attain rather than more noble goals.
He said that they are still slaves and seem to enjoy it because they have an invisible new slave master: the federal govt.So many stay on welfare generationally and have never considered their neighborhood and cultural problems are their own doing.. they seem to like to be slaves to one thing or another. Their cultural leaders are using them and they dont see it because its easier to live as they are.

Its always been a big issue for us because the blacks have tried to use us numerous times over several generations to justify their actions and cultural failures. That somehow they think because whites a few hundred years ago did something bad to us that we will join them in on their racism and racist actions against the whites. Pay attention now how certain black leaders mention native americans when they are spouting their rhetoric against the whites. Its a huge issue among some of us. Its felt that they are liars and users because they do things based on untruths and the untruths about us and our feelings according to the majority dont support what they are saying concerning us.

He was also VERY critical to our people who liv on the rez and are too slaves by choice. They want to be "indians" meaning they want to use our ancestors blood to receive welfare, housing and free things or favors from the federal government. He says the ancestors have forgotten their names.. that the ancestors dont recognize them as their children and they dont really exist in their minds. They have no place in the afterlife basically and will be shunned.


All in all my grandparents are constitutionalists.. they love America and dont see the cultural things are in conflict with the country. They dont look at their being a part of the Blackfeet Nation as in opposition to America as some do. Basically, regardless of modern propaganda, the native Americans welcomed the whites and knew their nature from the start.. mainly becuase they knew their own nature without the clouding of organized religion and govt imposed social contstraints. They knew when they welcomed the whites that there would be trouble, but the genesis of everything comes with pains and sacrifice. The founding of America was no different. Liek Ive said previously... some welcomed and joined in, some became "civilized tribes", some fought, some waited to make deals for their people when the time was right. Some even got a pass due to the geography of their lands. All in all.. its worked out for the best in the end... America is an amazing phenomenon.

Im not concerned with blacks and their issues. I would prefer to be left out of it and also am annoyed that they are so audacious to use me or my family to support their weird ideas. In the end, I have to remember to take every person individually on their own merits and not by color. Im allowed to judge their culture on the whole just as anyone else is. Its not a color of skin thing.. its a cultural failure thing that is intruding on everyone else. NA's might groan or whine at times, but they arent in your face demanding nonsense like the black culture.. NO other culture in AMerica is .. that I see anyway. Other cultural issues based on color or national origin gripe in small pockets.. but its never been an all out war into modern times as it has been between the whites and blacks. Its NOT the majority of whites that I see acting foolish. I see pockets of whites and white pride goofballs making asses of themselves, but not the white or anglo culture in the majority or whole.

Flame me if you wish. Its just an opinion.. based on some facts. Doesnt mean that I am or my family is totally right or totally wrong, but maybe if we all gather enough opinions and experiences into the equation we can move in a different direction eventually. This country is SOOO young.. it has a long way to go. We can either evolve or devolve as a society. Its going to take hearing the good and the bad opinions and experienes to figureout the future. No amount of suppression, group thing, demands of being politically correct or whing thin skin demands of tolerance will further the endeavor for some kind of harmony in the future IMO.

Oh.. plus the AMERICAN black culture is in its infancy as much as this country is itself. Its going to take time. I hate the direction its taking at the moment, but theyre human beings.. they dont need the white mans help.. they can make it a viable culture if they choose to themselves.

The issue is also rooted in the fact we use the word "Race" to describe various genetic traits in the remarkably similar "Tribe of Man".
Race is such a dated scientific term it almost holds no water in modern genetics as half the people on this planet who think they are "white,brown,red or yellow" are in fact a mixture of so called races as appearances can change completely across 2 or 3 generations

It seems to me that the science of the Empires is still with us today...

How can anyone lump White or Black people together in 2010 is a wonder to me as there is the same very tiny genetic difference between a native Italian and a Nigerian ( White and Black) as there is between a Spaniard and a Russian (White/White) or a native Senegalese and an Australian Aborigine ( Black/Black).


Race should be replaced with a word that means " Exhibiting outward features typically associated with dominant genetic traits specific to a geographic area of origin on planet earth " however I'm yet to come up with one that's snappy : )....

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Firstly, Black Pride, Brown Pride or White pride sentiment when you are in a country where you are a minority is entirely different to parties using the "Pride" term in a country where they are in the Majority.

It's not different.

Having pride in something as superficial as skin colour or ethnicity is just as ridiculous as thinking that this superficiality is in any way more justifiable if the person holding these views belongs to an ethnicity that has a mathematical majority or minority within the population.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Majorities don't need to have "pride" as this is something that is usually apparent in terms of democratic representation, education levels and living standards therefore the only pride that person has is in their belief of superiority over people with different color skin.

Minorities don't need to have ''pride''.

People who identify themselves along racial or ethnic lines are shallow and their ethos is self-defeating.

This is 2010, not 1968.

There is full legal and racial equality in the Western world.

There is nowhere to hide behind any more for people of any race.
We all have to face up to our own personal shortcomings, rather than attempting to deflect the blame away from ourselves, by using unfounded excuses to explain our shortfallings.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
"Oh but what about those people who say Black Power or Brown Pride...a white person wouldnt be able to say white power"

Aside from the obvious hijacking of the term by extremists, white minorities around the globe in none white countries have "White Pride" in various forms and this is pretty much universally accepted by their host countries.

People are looking at this from completely the wrong angle.

If some people are saying ''black power'' or using other odiously knuckle-dragging racial definitions and self-confirmations, then that doesn't in any way make it justifiable for people to respond with ''white power'', or any other similar racially motivated slogan or movement.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

We should be turning our negative attentions towards all ''racial pride'' movements, and the idiocy of the members and followers of these primitive movements.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Lets take an extreme example to demonstrate; If for example a white person walked down the street in Lagos with white pride tattooed on their forehead what do you think would happen????

Would their be uproar, would they get lynched...??

Nope...a few people would look at it and find it amusing that this none threatening minority has decided to show their pride in this way.
If the same scene happened in Brooklyn it may be a different matter due to the implied political statement so its all about context....

Have you got any validation for this claim ?

I mean, have you actually walked through the largest city in Nigeria with these tattoos ?

Your point is worthless, because there's no precedent, validation or reality to your point that is based purely on your own jaundiced personal conjecture.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
The context of someone in a minority saying "X pride" ( which I think is stupid anyway as everyone is an individual) is completely different to someone in the majority doing it and this is universally accepted around the world.

At least you admit that it's stupid.

But in answer to your point: No, it's no different whether the idiot professing this divisive mantra belongs to a group that forms a mathematical majority or minority in their country.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
It seems that the issue starts when people start imagining that only majority white countries count in this debate when there are millions of white people in majority none white countries doing EXACTLY the same thing as minorities do in Europe and America.

I think it would be easiest if you lost the white/non-white, black/non-black, asian/non-asian, majority/minority, way of thinking.

Race and ethnicity are irrelevant.

Any form of ''racial pride'' is obnoxious, and any attempt to validate one form of racism over the other, is contributing to the troubles in the world.

It's this attempt to justify intolerance that makes my blood boil.

''They started it'', ''I'm only doing it because ''they'' did the same'', ''If ''they'' can do this, then I should be able to do it as well''.

It's these childish and dangerous attitudes that will continue to perpetuate divisions within society, and gives intolerance some kind of ''validity'' in society.

We need to move away from these divisive viewpoints and attitudes, and adopt a zero-tolerance view towards this behaviour.

^ A well considered response (which is good for here) but you fundamentally lost all credibility with this statement :

"There is full legal and racial equality in the Western world."

That's what you are told but is this really the case.??..the clue is in the fact that the word race is used to describe dominant, external genetic traits of the same species (i.e the human race).

It is a complete oxymoron to suggest that countries (this includes all countries in the world) that use Race as a serious term in context of equality when they are in fact identifying individuals as a group based on colour of skin... ( as I said in another post; a Nigerian and an Aborigine have the same percentage of genetic similarities/differences as an Italian and a Senegalese or a Spaniard and a Russian).


Regarding my example of someone with white pride tattoo in Lagos, it was in fact based on the story Johnny "Mad Dog Adair" who is former terrorist with far right connections from Ireland who does in fact sport White Pride Tattoos.
During his reformation he went to Uganda as a famous white nationalist terrorist and the locals saw it as nothing to be worried or fearful about and it was treated (by the none threatened, Black majority) with nothing but interest and comedy hence my point about context.....

Although not the same as my example I think you get the idea...it's not about the sentiment it;'s about the underlying political issues in the specific country...I doubt Mr Adair would fair as well in a Black Township in South Africa as there are wider historical and socio political issues at stake.




I

reply to post by Brood


OK . Cue drum roll (13 stroke)

I agree with Brood! I must now go and lie down for some time in a darkened room (lol)
Seriously most of us in the west are mongrels. Skin colour is no indication of genetic make up. I do not agree with racial pride for black people ( in the 2000s) for the reasons that Brood has explained. As a black person I have made my stand against black and white racists.

When are we going to move on from the dark practice of race-based hate?

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

How far is to far to you on race issues?

What too far is today... is just a matter of political expedience, not genuine equality.

It's just my opinion but I do not think that two wrongs make a right. By tolerating what is often referred to as reverse-racism and reverse-discrimination, our society is actually fomenting a new age of racial strife and nursing intolerance across the broad spectrum of the great melting pot.

Until we reach a day when we honestly can call ourselves a color-blind society, the promised land will always be just over the next hill and around the furthest bend. This will not be brought about through legislation or draconian law but from the individual human heart.

Unfortunately, this simple truth is either ignored or misunderstood by the great majority of all.

reply to post by Jukiodone




Concerning this part of it only :
"There is full legal and racial equality in the Western world."


Its a hell of a lot easier to keep people stuck in that mind set centering on "race" to divide.. and get them whining about equality according to color of skin... to keep their eyes off of the FACT that most are judged by economic status and community status across the board and of any color . They use race to put out the greatest sterotypes and create division when its clear as day the race is secondary to the sterotype's economic status. Poor black with a watermelon and no shoes. Poor' white in a trailer and 15 dogs under the porch. Poor' indian in a blanket sleeping at noon. Poor hispanic with no shoes and a tamale. Poor asian knee deep in a rice patty.

I find it incredible that no one changes their thoughts on this RACIAL ( skin color) equality idea.. the color of the skin is most obvious to the eyes, but its the economic/communtiy status that divides. We associate the color with the economic status. Its what keeps the blacks in love with the thugging gold teeth, chains, thumpin cars.. its all external to cover their blackness and make folks think they are in a higher economic status.

This is why I abhore the politically correct crowd. Youre absolutely supporting the inequality under the guise of equality.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
^ A well considered response (which is good for here) but you fundamentally lost all credibility with this statement :

"There is full legal and racial equality in the Western world."

That's what you are told but is this really the case.??..the clue is in the fact that the word race is used to describe dominant, external genetic traits of the same species (i.e the human race).

Thanks mate.

The ''thanks'' was in regards to your complimentary take on my response, but it is not extended to include your comments about my post ''losing credibility'' and such. I do not condone the nature of those remarks.

In what way are you contesting the notion that there isn't full legal and social equality between races in the Western world ?

With respect, I think a connection between the biological definition of ''race'' and the socio-cultural definition of the same term is a bit of an extended reach.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
It is a complete oxymoron to suggest that countries (this includes all countries in the world) that use Race as a serious term in context of equality when they are in fact identifying individuals as a group based on colour of skin... ( as I said in another post; a Nigerian and an Aborigine have the same percentage of genetic similarities/differences as an Italian and a Senegalese or a Spaniard and a Russian).

I understand your point, and I think it's absolutely pathetic that some people identify themselves by their ''race'' or discriminate against someone else because of the other person's ''race''.

However, we've got to realise that ''racial'' discrimination does exist.

A white person may actively discriminate against a black person purely because of that person's skin colour or ethnicity, and vice versa.

This is why these laws exist, that specify a definition of ''race'', and are adopted by most countries in the Western world.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Regarding my example of someone with white pride tattoo in Lagos, it was in fact based on the story Johnny "Mad Dog Adair" who is former terrorist with far right connections from Ireland who does in fact sport White Pride Tattoos.
During his reformation he went to Uganda as a famous white nationalist terrorist and the locals saw it as nothing to be worried or fearful about and it was treated (by the none threatened, Black majority) with nothing but interest and comedy hence my point about context.....

Didn't Johnny Adair get assassinated in the late 90s ?

I'm not sure, but I thought he got bumped off by factions within the UDA about 10 years ago.

Lagos is in Nigeria, which is thousands of miles away from Uganda, which is a country in East Africa.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Although not the same as my example I think you get the idea...it's not about the sentiment it;'s about the underlying political issues in the specific country...I doubt Mr Adair would fair as well in a Black Township in South Africa as there are wider historical and socio political issues at stake.

I understand your point.

But it's not really relevant in a Western country in 2010, is it ?


I completely understand ''black power'' in the context of 1960s USA.

This was a group of Americans marginalised and treated as second-class citizens, purely because of their skin colour or ethnicity.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Nope,Johny Adair is still alive and I'm pretty sure he ended up marrying a (black) Tanzanian women
Either way, the (extreme) example still stands that indicates perception and context are the important factors between Minority and Majority.

@Advantage; that was going to be my next argument but you more than adequately covered it.....Money eclipses any racial position....especially in the US....you could walk into a republican fundraising event with a "kill the cracker" tee shirt and as long as your donation is big enough you'd be welcomed with open arms.

Originally posted by jukiodone2
Nope,Johny Adair is still alive and I'm pretty sure he ended up marrying a (black) Tanzanian women

Either way, the (extreme) example still stands that indicates perception and context are the important factors between Minority and Majority.

LOL.

I must have been confused about someone else.
I thought he got gunned downed by ''dissidents'', circa late 90s-early 00s era.

I must have been thinking about someone else !



''Perception'' and ''context'' are irrelevant in a mature society, where minority and majority play an irrelevant part...

To be on the topic of the title, I've got something to discuss (Although it has little to do with the OP because the OP is really just a stupid question).

My white friend called me (a caucasian) the "N" word the other day and our black friend got all offended and said "You're not allowed to say that!".

The hell is up with that?

I mean, I can understand if I was referring to him... but that's like me getting mad at some woman calling another woman a faggot. It doesn't make any sense, so it's just funny. I fail to see how it is offensive.