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Palestinian terrorism- Not what you thought. (Wikipedia only)
page: 2share:
Haven't you guys heard? Palestinians only want peace. Israel keeps intentionally shooting schools and day cares.
The casualities have nothing to do with armed palestinians hiding in schools and day cares... That would be absurd!!!
Israel was sent here by the devil to do evil things. Get it straight!
The casualities have nothing to do with armed palestinians hiding in schools and day cares... That would be absurd!!!
Israel was sent here by the devil to do evil things. Get it straight!
reply to post by Eliad
Hi Eliad.
O/T links to the proposed Silwan demolitions:
www.haaretz.com...
www.haaretz.com...
Information on the legal status:
The annexation of East Jerusalem was declared ILLEGAL by UNSC Resolution 252 (1968)of 21 May 1968 UNSC Resolution 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969 UNSC Resolution 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, UNSC Resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, UNSC Resolution 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, UNSC Resolution 476 (1980) of 30 June 1980.
So religious cleansing, or a genuine attempt by the occupying power to improve living conditions? Its not the first time the Palestinian residents of Silwan have found themselves under threat.
Thank you for the honest and forthright answers Eliad. Would you mind if I break my responses up a little. If I miss anything out give us a shout or throw something at me.
I cant work out nestled quotes on ATS so excuse the format.
Joewalker wrote:
Eliad wrote:
Just interested as to what conclusions the commissions came to, after all, Israel has never stuck one group of people on another for her own benefit and any Israeli sponsored terrorism stopped after the declaration of Independence.
While you are checking that out, would you mind looking into Operation Susannah.
Eliad wrote:
Rogue terrorist organisations which were awarded honours by the state..Yep it is most definitely our freedoms which ‘they’ hate.
Eliad wrote:
I think your mask has slipped a tad there my friend. Theodor Herzl, a Hungarian born of Serbian parents, wrote a book in which a political extremist called Geyer is thrown out of Herzl’s utopian land..
Back in a bit.
Hi Eliad.
O/T links to the proposed Silwan demolitions:
www.haaretz.com...
www.haaretz.com...
Information on the legal status:
The annexation of East Jerusalem was declared ILLEGAL by UNSC Resolution 252 (1968)of 21 May 1968 UNSC Resolution 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969 UNSC Resolution 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, UNSC Resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, UNSC Resolution 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, UNSC Resolution 476 (1980) of 30 June 1980.
en.wikipedia.org...
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478, adopted on August 20, 1980, declared Israel's 1980 Jerusalem Law a violation of international law, and states that the Council will not recognize this law, and calls on member states to accept the decision of the council. This resolution also calls upon member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from the city. The [Jerusalem] law declared Jerusalem to be Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital.
The resolution was passed with 14 votes to none against, with the United States abstaining.
So religious cleansing, or a genuine attempt by the occupying power to improve living conditions? Its not the first time the Palestinian residents of Silwan have found themselves under threat.
Thank you for the honest and forthright answers Eliad. Would you mind if I break my responses up a little. If I miss anything out give us a shout or throw something at me.
I cant work out nestled quotes on ATS so excuse the format.
Joewalker wrote:
Could you tell me just what conclusions the MacBride and then the Kahan commissions came to
Eliad wrote:
Is this about Sabra and Shatila?
What do you want me to refer to in regards to it?
Just interested as to what conclusions the commissions came to, after all, Israel has never stuck one group of people on another for her own benefit and any Israeli sponsored terrorism stopped after the declaration of Independence.
While you are checking that out, would you mind looking into Operation Susannah.
Eliad wrote:
What do you mean by "Ditto"? Do you, or do you not see the difference between stopping a rogue terrorist organization that came from your own nation, and massacring anyone who politically opposes you?
Rogue terrorist organisations which were awarded honours by the state..Yep it is most definitely our freedoms which ‘they’ hate.
Eliad wrote:
Before we came the Ottomans were massacring Christians, before that the Crusaders butchered both Arabs and Jews...
The Zionists were not the catalyst
I think your mask has slipped a tad there my friend. Theodor Herzl, a Hungarian born of Serbian parents, wrote a book in which a political extremist called Geyer is thrown out of Herzl’s utopian land..
Back in a bit.
edit on 26-10-2010 by joewalker because: tidying and added Silwan info
reply to post by Eliad
Nice try, you guys are getting better with your post's, using links to back your sensationalist and skewed twisting of facts, and even using quotes for lazy/ or low bandwidth ats'ers. Before I came here you guys just spouted hawkish neo-con talking points.
Here's some advice you can have for free, no need to pay expensive analysts to examine the data to come up with yet more spin. Y'all seem desperate as your talking points have been ripped to shreds in post after post by educated ats'ers, thank the Universal soul that sites like this exist.
So the advice is- wiki is not a reliable, or respected source, especially around here. I rather like for you guy's to get more complex with your threads, it just allows for a more complete de-construction of the lies.
Now, where to begin.
Well, first, let me just say wiki does have a decidedly zionist bias.
You will notice, if you go to the entries for "Palestine" or "israel"(isfake), it says that those entries are under scrutiny due to people posting all types of crazy things. Now, just for *craps* and giggles, try to modify the page in any way that doesn't go along with it's current, standard American gov. stance on the issue. It never even shows up. Just try it.
Now, even when it was still the British mandate of Palestine, groups like the irgun and stern gang were committing terrorist acts against both the Palestinians and the British. And just for ironies sake, here's some wiki info about that:
List of Irgun attacks 1937-1948
Date↓ Casualties↓ References↓
1937, March 2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach. [12]
1937, November 14 10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday") [13][14]
1938, April 12 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. [14]
1938, April 17 1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa [14]
1938, May 17 1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. [14]
1938, May 24 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. [14]
1938, June 23 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv. [14]
1938, June 26 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. [14]
1938, June 27 1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. [14]
1938, June (late) Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem. [15]
1938, July 5 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv. [14]
1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 5 1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. [14][16]
1938, July 8 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 16 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 25 43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. [14][17]
1938, August 26 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. [14]
1938, February 27 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.
It goes on like that... Here's the source! en.wikipedia.org...
And the splinter stern gang.....
Stern Gang, also called Stern Group or Lehi, formally Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel (Hebrew: “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”)
Zionist extremist organization in Palestine, founded in 1940 by Avraham Stern (1907–42) after a split in the right-wing underground movement Irgun Zvai Leumi.
Extremely anti-British, the group repeatedly attacked British personnel in Palestine and even invited aid from the Axis powers. The British police retaliated by killing Stern in his apartment in February 1942; many of the gang’s leaders were subsequently arrested. The group’s terrorist activities extended beyond Palestine: two members assassinated Lord Moyne, British minister of ...
That's encyclopedia Britannica by the way. Source here: www.britannica.com...
So, yeah, you guy's are getting better at this, but if your going to try to pass off complete bull dookey and dis-info to the ATS crowd, you gotta do better than that.
Many on this site think for themselves, actually still read, and aren't afraid of doing in depth research- it's why I keep coming back here, original thought, creativity, people that don't just accept the rubbish they're told to believe. Good start though -3p1c FAIL-
Nice try, you guys are getting better with your post's, using links to back your sensationalist and skewed twisting of facts, and even using quotes for lazy/ or low bandwidth ats'ers. Before I came here you guys just spouted hawkish neo-con talking points.
Here's some advice you can have for free, no need to pay expensive analysts to examine the data to come up with yet more spin. Y'all seem desperate as your talking points have been ripped to shreds in post after post by educated ats'ers, thank the Universal soul that sites like this exist.
So the advice is- wiki is not a reliable, or respected source, especially around here. I rather like for you guy's to get more complex with your threads, it just allows for a more complete de-construction of the lies.
Now, where to begin.
Well, first, let me just say wiki does have a decidedly zionist bias.
You will notice, if you go to the entries for "Palestine" or "israel"(isfake), it says that those entries are under scrutiny due to people posting all types of crazy things. Now, just for *craps* and giggles, try to modify the page in any way that doesn't go along with it's current, standard American gov. stance on the issue. It never even shows up. Just try it.
Now, even when it was still the British mandate of Palestine, groups like the irgun and stern gang were committing terrorist acts against both the Palestinians and the British. And just for ironies sake, here's some wiki info about that:
List of Irgun attacks 1937-1948
Date↓ Casualties↓ References↓
1937, March 2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach. [12]
1937, November 14 10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday") [13][14]
1938, April 12 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. [14]
1938, April 17 1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa [14]
1938, May 17 1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road. [14]
1938, May 24 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. [14]
1938, June 23 2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv. [14]
1938, June 26 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. [14]
1938, June 27 1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. [14]
1938, June (late) Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem. [15]
1938, July 5 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv. [14]
1938, July 5 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 5 1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 6 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. [14][16]
1938, July 8 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 16 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. [14]
1938, July 25 43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. [14][17]
1938, August 26 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. [14]
1938, February 27 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.
It goes on like that... Here's the source! en.wikipedia.org...
And the splinter stern gang.....
Stern Gang, also called Stern Group or Lehi, formally Loḥamei Ḥerut Yisraʾel (Hebrew: “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”)
Zionist extremist organization in Palestine, founded in 1940 by Avraham Stern (1907–42) after a split in the right-wing underground movement Irgun Zvai Leumi.
Extremely anti-British, the group repeatedly attacked British personnel in Palestine and even invited aid from the Axis powers. The British police retaliated by killing Stern in his apartment in February 1942; many of the gang’s leaders were subsequently arrested. The group’s terrorist activities extended beyond Palestine: two members assassinated Lord Moyne, British minister of ...
That's encyclopedia Britannica by the way. Source here: www.britannica.com...
So, yeah, you guy's are getting better at this, but if your going to try to pass off complete bull dookey and dis-info to the ATS crowd, you gotta do better than that.
Many on this site think for themselves, actually still read, and aren't afraid of doing in depth research- it's why I keep coming back here, original thought, creativity, people that don't just accept the rubbish they're told to believe. Good start though -3p1c FAIL-
edit on
26-10-2010 by siahchi because: paragraph spacing, for readibility
edit on 26-10-2010 by siahchi because: cleaned up code for pic of
enc. entry
Look Eliad, we are being given grades. Oh thank thee mighty master.
One can not simply separate the countries that are members of UNSC from their resolution against Israel. For decades, many of the USNC members are Israel's enemies, and some of the worse human rights violators in the world. Talk about hypocrisy.
If Israel was to accept every resolution ever made by UNSC, there wouldn't be Israel today. Plain and simple. If the choice is between abiding to that said resolutions or the survival of Israel, I'll take the later one.
Jerusalem has never been a capital of any other country, but Israels. It was never the capital of the Palestinians, or Jordan or anyone else, except for Israel and the Jewish people. Jerusalem was liberated in 1967 after the six days war that started – again – because of Arab countries aggression and desire to destroy Israel. Territories have nothing to do with this aggression and hatred.
Did you ever check the 'stage doctrine' of the PLO? You should, as it will show you how being naive in this dangerous game will get you killed.
Silwan was a part of 'the city of David' and is called 'Shiloah'. Look it up in the Bible. To claim it is and always was a Palestinian village, is an insult to intelligent honest people.
And please remind me, exactly How many times does the Qur'an mentions Jerusalem ?
The Jewish resistance movement:
You can not detach the time and place from the resistance actions. It's a time of the British mandate while Jews in Europe are being outcast, persecuted and later butchered by the millions. Most of the Jews that were lucky enough to escape the horrors of the Nazis and collaborators, are being sent back to Europe by the British, right back to the jaws of the Nazis. (the 'white book' policy) Even when the war is over, Jewish survivors are still not allowed to enter Israel, and those who try are being sent to prison camps in Cyprus.
Many Israeli Jews joined the British forces against the Wehrmacht, in what was called the 'Jewish brigade'.
The Arabs on the other hand were seeking ways to join forces with the Nazi regime, and also a way to implement 'the final solution' for the Jews of the region. (See the Grand Mufti and Hitler).
Form the 1920's on, Arab pogroms are taking place, while the British mandate not only avoids protecting Jews, it also confiscates weapons from them and letting the Arabs continue with their murderous actions. This is the time when the self-restraint policy of the resistance movement ends, and a more active action is taking place against the British mandate and Arabs.
I'm do not necessarily agree with every action they made, but trying to find similarities between today's Palestinian Terror and the Jewish resistance of that time, is absurd, ignorant and hypocrisy.
One can not simply separate the countries that are members of UNSC from their resolution against Israel. For decades, many of the USNC members are Israel's enemies, and some of the worse human rights violators in the world. Talk about hypocrisy.
If Israel was to accept every resolution ever made by UNSC, there wouldn't be Israel today. Plain and simple. If the choice is between abiding to that said resolutions or the survival of Israel, I'll take the later one.
Jerusalem has never been a capital of any other country, but Israels. It was never the capital of the Palestinians, or Jordan or anyone else, except for Israel and the Jewish people. Jerusalem was liberated in 1967 after the six days war that started – again – because of Arab countries aggression and desire to destroy Israel. Territories have nothing to do with this aggression and hatred.
Did you ever check the 'stage doctrine' of the PLO? You should, as it will show you how being naive in this dangerous game will get you killed.
Silwan was a part of 'the city of David' and is called 'Shiloah'. Look it up in the Bible. To claim it is and always was a Palestinian village, is an insult to intelligent honest people.
And please remind me, exactly How many times does the Qur'an mentions Jerusalem ?
The Jewish resistance movement:
You can not detach the time and place from the resistance actions. It's a time of the British mandate while Jews in Europe are being outcast, persecuted and later butchered by the millions. Most of the Jews that were lucky enough to escape the horrors of the Nazis and collaborators, are being sent back to Europe by the British, right back to the jaws of the Nazis. (the 'white book' policy) Even when the war is over, Jewish survivors are still not allowed to enter Israel, and those who try are being sent to prison camps in Cyprus.
Many Israeli Jews joined the British forces against the Wehrmacht, in what was called the 'Jewish brigade'.
The Arabs on the other hand were seeking ways to join forces with the Nazi regime, and also a way to implement 'the final solution' for the Jews of the region. (See the Grand Mufti and Hitler).
Form the 1920's on, Arab pogroms are taking place, while the British mandate not only avoids protecting Jews, it also confiscates weapons from them and letting the Arabs continue with their murderous actions. This is the time when the self-restraint policy of the resistance movement ends, and a more active action is taking place against the British mandate and Arabs.
I'm do not necessarily agree with every action they made, but trying to find similarities between today's Palestinian Terror and the Jewish resistance of that time, is absurd, ignorant and hypocrisy.
reply to post by gravitational
Gravi, you have absolutely no credibility until you actually start replying, with facts, to when people call you on your numerous inaccurate statements. Such as this:
found here (scroll down): www.abovetopsecret.com...
Your not pulling your weight with the zionist internet defense league gravi. Your posts do your cause more harm than good if you can't respond when people show facts contrary to your spin.
Gravi, you have absolutely no credibility until you actually start replying, with facts, to when people call you on your numerous inaccurate statements. Such as this:
Originally posted by siahchi
reply to post by gravitational
HAHAHA! Ackmedjibberjab (ahmedinijad) has actually been proven to be Jewish! His family name is Sabourjain. To win a conflict, control both sides. Iranians can't stand the guy, he doesn't do them any favors running his big mouth.
See here: Uk Telegraph: jibbajab's jewish past
Thanks for the laugh ms. sod! Disinfo disinfo.....
Anyway, she apologized on national T.V. Google it or something
And Ashkenazim (who run the country, along with New Yorkers) are NOT Semetic, they are from Poland, Russia, what have you.
See: Siahchi's Research on Semites in history (scroll to middle of page)
See also:www.abovetopsecret.com...
And why not: www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 20-10-2010 by siahchi because: added lineedit on 20-10-2010 by siahchi because: added linksedit on 20-10-2010 by siahchi because: (no reason given)
found here (scroll down): www.abovetopsecret.com...
Your not pulling your weight with the zionist internet defense league gravi. Your posts do your cause more harm than good if you can't respond when people show facts contrary to your spin.
reply to post by siahchi
Here you go again. Giving me grades, as if you're an authority in history, or maybe it's sociology in this matter ?
You want me to waste my time on your continuance rhetoric irrelevant pseudo scientific historic research gibberish against Israel?
Think again.
Here you go again. Giving me grades, as if you're an authority in history, or maybe it's sociology in this matter ?
You want me to waste my time on your continuance rhetoric irrelevant pseudo scientific historic research gibberish against Israel?
Think again.
reply to post by joewalker
Oh, you're talking about Silwan..
Here's the thing about Silwan-
The only reason there's rioting in Silwan is because of left wing and right wing extremists on both sides who are using it as a political platform for their arguments, and they're lighting the streets on fire..
In a recent interview to the news both the Arab Muktar (leader) of the neighborhood, and the Jewish one turned to the press and asked them to leave them all alone- According to them the Jews and the Arabs of the neighborhood are living in peace, and these changes are agreed upon by all..
Just open the new post in a new tab, and copy whatever you want to quote using the quote button on the top here..
Why can't you just tell me what you want me to find, and I'll comment on it..
Awarded 40 years after they were disbanded and only when the prime minister was a former member of one of these groups.
You're all over the place, just answer the question: Can you see the difference between Hamas killing Fatah for opposing them politically, and Hagana hunting down and catching Irgun members for being too extreme?
So? What does that have to do with what you quoted?
What mask?
Oh, you're talking about Silwan..
Here's the thing about Silwan-
"The new plan for Silwan allows for the addition of thousands of housing units for the Arab sector and the resolution of hundreds of construction violations."
The city's plan would raze 22 Palestinian homes and construct a tourism center in their place. An additional 66 homes built without the proper permits would receive approval retroactively. The tourism center for the area, which is called Al Bustan in Arabic and Gan Hamelekh (King's Garden) in Hebrew, is to include restaurants and boutique hotels. The city said it would help residents of the 22 homes due for demolition to move to other areas of Silwan.
The only reason there's rioting in Silwan is because of left wing and right wing extremists on both sides who are using it as a political platform for their arguments, and they're lighting the streets on fire..
In a recent interview to the news both the Arab Muktar (leader) of the neighborhood, and the Jewish one turned to the press and asked them to leave them all alone- According to them the Jews and the Arabs of the neighborhood are living in peace, and these changes are agreed upon by all..
I cant work out nestled quotes on ATS so excuse the format.
Just open the new post in a new tab, and copy whatever you want to quote using the quote button on the top here..
Just interested as to what conclusions the commissions came to, after all, Israel has never stuck one group of people on another for her own benefit and any Israeli sponsored terrorism stopped after the declaration of Independence. While you are checking that out, would you mind looking into Operation Susannah.
Why can't you just tell me what you want me to find, and I'll comment on it..
Rogue terrorist organisations which were awarded honours by the state..Yep it is most definitely our freedoms which ‘they’ hate.
Awarded 40 years after they were disbanded and only when the prime minister was a former member of one of these groups.
You're all over the place, just answer the question: Can you see the difference between Hamas killing Fatah for opposing them politically, and Hagana hunting down and catching Irgun members for being too extreme?
I think your mask has slipped a tad there my friend. Theodor Herzl, a Hungarian born of Serbian parents, wrote a book in which a political extremist called Geyer is thrown out of Herzl’s utopian land..
So? What does that have to do with what you quoted?
What mask?
reply to post by siahchi
What is then?
No one seems to trust the MSM here.
No one trusts Wikipedia apparently.
What is reliable?
Like what? Tell me what it is you plan on writing and let's do it "for craps and giggles".
Problem is that everything that's anti Israeli seems to you like a fair and honest assessment, or as hard fact, and anything that's neutral, and avoids taking sides seems to you like a lie and an attempt to cover the truth of the situation..
If you think wiki is pro Israeli then you probably spend too much time in blogs and not enough on wiki- Go and read about Irgun, about the conflict, about Sabra and Shatilla, about cast lead.. Both sides are represented.
The same with the PLO and Hamas- They're not being called evil murderers or anything..
Enough with this paranoia, it's so easy to think that anything that you disagree with is a lie.
Not ironic at all, you're just proving wiki is reliable and unbiased.
Also if you had bothered to research you would have known that they represent the few extremists of the Jewish nation, and that they were hunted down and captured by other Jews, because they were considered criminals by the Jews.
The Jews had extremists, but they were considered criminals, and no one co-operated with them.
It is you who are spinning, making it seem like the opinions of the Irgun somehow represent the entire Jewish population.
The wiki's is much worse.. They're being called terrorists an portrayed as facists.. So how is wiki pro Israeli?
en.wikipedia.org...(group)#Relationship_with_fascism_and_socialism
You can say it a million times, still doesn't make it true.
Instead of running around saying I'm spreading lies, why don't you disprove one of my arguments?
Why don't you show *where it is exactly* that I've lied.
I'd appreciate that..
And you feel you're a part of these people?
See, this is what I don't like about your post- We each have difference opinions but you seem so insecure in your opinions that you feel like you have to accuse everyone you disagree with of lying..
All you really said in your post is that I'm lying and that people are too smart to buy what I'm saying, but you haven't proven anything I said wrong, and in fact shown that a lot of what I said was right..
So the question is- Do you really think people are stupid enough to buy into your silly "you people are too smart to buy that" routine?
Give me a break.
Come back when you've learned to show some respect to the person you're debating with.
So the advice is- wiki is not a reliable, or respected source, especially around here. I rather like for you guy's to get more complex with your threads, it just allows for a more complete de-construction of the lies.
What is then?
No one seems to trust the MSM here.
No one trusts Wikipedia apparently.
What is reliable?
"Palestine" or "israel"(isfake), it says that those entries are under scrutiny due to people posting all types of crazy things. Now, just for *craps* and giggles, try to modify the page in any way that doesn't go along with it's current, standard American gov. stance on the issue. It never even shows up. Just try it.
Like what? Tell me what it is you plan on writing and let's do it "for craps and giggles".
Problem is that everything that's anti Israeli seems to you like a fair and honest assessment, or as hard fact, and anything that's neutral, and avoids taking sides seems to you like a lie and an attempt to cover the truth of the situation..
If you think wiki is pro Israeli then you probably spend too much time in blogs and not enough on wiki- Go and read about Irgun, about the conflict, about Sabra and Shatilla, about cast lead.. Both sides are represented.
The same with the PLO and Hamas- They're not being called evil murderers or anything..
Enough with this paranoia, it's so easy to think that anything that you disagree with is a lie.
Now, even when it was still the British mandate of Palestine, groups like the irgun and stern gang were committing terrorist acts against both the Palestinians and the British.
Not ironic at all, you're just proving wiki is reliable and unbiased.
Also if you had bothered to research you would have known that they represent the few extremists of the Jewish nation, and that they were hunted down and captured by other Jews, because they were considered criminals by the Jews.
The Jews had extremists, but they were considered criminals, and no one co-operated with them.
It is you who are spinning, making it seem like the opinions of the Irgun somehow represent the entire Jewish population.
That's encyclopedia Britannica by the way.
The wiki's is much worse.. They're being called terrorists an portrayed as facists.. So how is wiki pro Israeli?
en.wikipedia.org...(group)#Relationship_with_fascism_and_socialism
but if your going to try to pass off complete bull dookey and dis-info to the ATS crowd, you gotta do better than that.
You can say it a million times, still doesn't make it true.
Instead of running around saying I'm spreading lies, why don't you disprove one of my arguments?
Why don't you show *where it is exactly* that I've lied.
I'd appreciate that..
people that don't just accept the rubbish they're told to believe
And you feel you're a part of these people?
See, this is what I don't like about your post- We each have difference opinions but you seem so insecure in your opinions that you feel like you have to accuse everyone you disagree with of lying..
All you really said in your post is that I'm lying and that people are too smart to buy what I'm saying, but you haven't proven anything I said wrong, and in fact shown that a lot of what I said was right..
So the question is- Do you really think people are stupid enough to buy into your silly "you people are too smart to buy that" routine?
Give me a break.
Come back when you've learned to show some respect to the person you're debating with.
reply to post by Eliad
Which is why I linked to the Ha'aretz articles; Balance and fairness and all that.
Excellent.
Okay, what were the conclusions of the MacBride and Kahan Commissions. What were the aims of Operation Susannah and how do the answers affect your previous statement that:
Extreme acts which would be 'celebrated' by some in the Israeli Government sixty years later. From your OP:
Why did it take the Haganah so long to go after the Irgun? They had been placing bombs in Palestinian market places since the 1930's.
Hamas need to end, unconditionally, any armed resistance which targets Israeli civilians.
Do you have any knowledge of the leaders and originators of political zionism? Or did your 'research' just involve reading one of dershowitz's books?
Oh, you're talking about Silwan..
Here's the thing about Silwan-
Which is why I linked to the Ha'aretz articles; Balance and fairness and all that.
In a recent interview to the news both the Arab Muktar (leader) of the neighborhood, and the Jewish one turned to the press and asked them to leave them all alone- According to them the Jews and the Arabs of the neighborhood are living in peace, and these changes are agreed upon by all..
Excellent.
Why can't you just tell me what you want me to find, and I'll comment on it..
Okay, what were the conclusions of the MacBride and Kahan Commissions. What were the aims of Operation Susannah and how do the answers affect your previous statement that:
No, when has it [Israel] ever used its political influence to sick one group of people on another for its own benefit?
You're all over the place, just answer the question: Can you see the difference between Hamas killing Fatah for opposing them politically, and Hagana hunting down and catching Irgun members for being too extreme?
Extreme acts which would be 'celebrated' by some in the Israeli Government sixty years later. From your OP:
Just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people into believing lies, and how short our collective memory is-Things that had happened in the 60's were relavent in the 80's, but it seems they are forgotten today.
Why did it take the Haganah so long to go after the Irgun? They had been placing bombs in Palestinian market places since the 1930's.
Hamas need to end, unconditionally, any armed resistance which targets Israeli civilians.
So? What does that have to do with what you quoted?
Do you have any knowledge of the leaders and originators of political zionism? Or did your 'research' just involve reading one of dershowitz's books?
edit on 27-10-2010 by joewalker because: 100th post woo hoo.
edit on 27-10-2010 by joewalker because: (no reason
given)
reply to post by joewalker
Yeah, I'm cool with that.. Haaretz, BTW (I don't know if you've noticed), is very left wing, and while most of the MSM in Israel is left wing, this one's extremely left wing, and condemns Israel for everything it does..
I meant find me the relevant quote.. Quote me the conclusions.. From what I know of Sabra and Shatila it wasn't that the Israeli army instigated this massacre, it just ignored it..
Besides, it didn't create these phalanges, and it didn't control them, and this is only one incident in the whole history of Israel.. It's completely different from the involvement and creation of the PLO and Fadayin.
As for the Susannah operation.. Yeah, it was a dumb covert operation, but it wasn't about terrorizing the Egyptians, it was about making someone else look extreme....
Again, it's not the same as being dedicated to terrorism..
First of all it's not these acts that were celebrated, not all of what they did was vile, and I don't think they were given this to celebrate whatever evil they have done, but instead the good- They did fight and die during the war in defense of it.
Second as I said-
Third, actions speak louder than words- They were hunted by Hagana, they were extradited by Hagana to the Brits, Hagana did try and spoil whatever plans they had, and they did have to hide from everyone else.
Does getting a ribbon 40 years after they had stopped doing anything to anyone, mainly because the acting prime minister was a former member of Lehi, change all of that?
I thought they were created in the 40's..
What do you think, those guys would walk around with a sign over their head saying "We're the Irgun"? They hid. They weren't easiest people on earth to find.
Sadly it *is* the armed resistance.
Even towards its own citizens it behaves badly, like when they took over the Gaza TV station by force a week ago or so..
Educate me..
What did Hertzel's book have to do with me basically saying everyone tried to kill everyone at one point or another of this place?
Not having read the book I wouldn't know, so you might as well explain it..
Which is why I linked to the Ha'aretz articles; Balance and fairness and all that.
Yeah, I'm cool with that.. Haaretz, BTW (I don't know if you've noticed), is very left wing, and while most of the MSM in Israel is left wing, this one's extremely left wing, and condemns Israel for everything it does..
Okay, what were the conclusions of the MacBride and Kahan Commissions. What were the aims of Operation Susannah and how do the answers affect your previous statement that
I meant find me the relevant quote.. Quote me the conclusions.. From what I know of Sabra and Shatila it wasn't that the Israeli army instigated this massacre, it just ignored it..
Besides, it didn't create these phalanges, and it didn't control them, and this is only one incident in the whole history of Israel.. It's completely different from the involvement and creation of the PLO and Fadayin.
As for the Susannah operation.. Yeah, it was a dumb covert operation, but it wasn't about terrorizing the Egyptians, it was about making someone else look extreme....
Again, it's not the same as being dedicated to terrorism..
Extreme acts which would be 'celebrated' by some in the Israeli Government sixty years later.
First of all it's not these acts that were celebrated, not all of what they did was vile, and I don't think they were given this to celebrate whatever evil they have done, but instead the good- They did fight and die during the war in defense of it.
Second as I said-
Getting a ribbon 40 years later hardly means the Irgun's actions were supported by Israel.. It just means that enough time went by that people started forgetting, I guess..
Third, actions speak louder than words- They were hunted by Hagana, they were extradited by Hagana to the Brits, Hagana did try and spoil whatever plans they had, and they did have to hide from everyone else.
Does getting a ribbon 40 years after they had stopped doing anything to anyone, mainly because the acting prime minister was a former member of Lehi, change all of that?
Why did it take the Haganah so long to go after the Irgun? They had been placing bombs in Palestinian market places since the 1930's.
I thought they were created in the 40's..
What do you think, those guys would walk around with a sign over their head saying "We're the Irgun"? They hid. They weren't easiest people on earth to find.
Hamas need to end, unconditionally, any armed resistance which targets Israeli civilians.
Sadly it *is* the armed resistance.
Even towards its own citizens it behaves badly, like when they took over the Gaza TV station by force a week ago or so..
Do you have any knowledge of the leaders and originators of political zionism? Or did your 'research' just involve reading one of dershowitz's books?
Educate me..
What did Hertzel's book have to do with me basically saying everyone tried to kill everyone at one point or another of this place?
Not having read the book I wouldn't know, so you might as well explain it..
reply to post by Eliad
Hey Eliad. Thanks for the quoting tips bud .
heh heh, I tried to find it on Arutz Sheva but the lack of a search function foiled that plan.
I think facilitated was the word used. As you are aware, both reports came to very similar conclusions. But dont take my word for it, anyone reading our discussion can research and find the reports.
Jewish nationalism being so much better than other types...ultra-nationalism never ends well, for anyone.
The planting of explosive devices aimed at civilian infrastructure is terrorism, state sponsored in this case. Isnt that exactly what you are accusing 'Arab' nations of in your OP?
You explained the events at Shabra and Shatilla as 'one' single incident in the history of Israel, would OP susannah make that two? Hmmm, I wonder how many more we can find..
I hear the hamas also have social programs as well. You are in good company though, Netenyahu said something very similar in a speech praising ex irgun members - one mans terrorist etc etc.
Only after they(lehi) assassinated a British official. The Haganah didnt seem too bothered when thier former colleagues (irgun) were blowing up Christian and Muslim Palestinians in market places.
Nope.The irgun split from the haganah in the early thirties. They had no need to go round with a sign, Jewish palestinians already knew who they were.
Eliad, believe me when I say that I have NO time for any group that would target civilians. The smartest thing these guys could do is renounce terrorism and fully move into politics. Although that would leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war.
Read, research, debate and form your own conclusions. But whatever you do, dont take my word for it.
Hey Eliad. Thanks for the quoting tips bud .
Yeah, I'm cool with that.. Haaretz, BTW (I don't know if you've noticed), is very left wing, and while most of the MSM in Israel is left wing, this one's extremely left wing, and condemns Israel for everything it does..
heh heh, I tried to find it on Arutz Sheva but the lack of a search function foiled that plan.
I meant find me the relevant quote.. Quote me the conclusions.. From what I know of Sabra and Shatila it wasn't that the Israeli army instigated this massacre, it just ignored it..
Besides, it didn't create these phalanges, and it didn't control them, and this is only one incident in the whole history of Israel
I think facilitated was the word used. As you are aware, both reports came to very similar conclusions. But dont take my word for it, anyone reading our discussion can research and find the reports.
It's completely different from the involvement and creation of the PLO and Fadayin.
Jewish nationalism being so much better than other types...ultra-nationalism never ends well, for anyone.
As for the Susannah operation.. Yeah, it was a dumb covert operation, but it wasn't about terrorizing the Egyptians, it was about making someone else look extreme....
Again, it's not the same as being dedicated to terrorism..
The planting of explosive devices aimed at civilian infrastructure is terrorism, state sponsored in this case. Isnt that exactly what you are accusing 'Arab' nations of in your OP?
You explained the events at Shabra and Shatilla as 'one' single incident in the history of Israel, would OP susannah make that two? Hmmm, I wonder how many more we can find..
First of all it's not these acts that were celebrated, not all of what they did was vile, and I don't think they were given this to celebrate whatever evil they have done, but instead the good- They did fight and die during the war in defense of it.
I hear the hamas also have social programs as well. You are in good company though, Netenyahu said something very similar in a speech praising ex irgun members - one mans terrorist etc etc.
Third, actions speak louder than words- They were hunted by Hagana, they were extradited by Hagana to the Brits, Hagana did try and spoil whatever plans they had, and they did have to hide from everyone else
Only after they(lehi) assassinated a British official. The Haganah didnt seem too bothered when thier former colleagues (irgun) were blowing up Christian and Muslim Palestinians in market places.
I thought they were created in the 40's..
What do you think, those guys would walk around with a sign over their head saying "We're the Irgun"? They hid. They weren't easiest people on earth to find
Nope.The irgun split from the haganah in the early thirties. They had no need to go round with a sign, Jewish palestinians already knew who they were.
Sadly it *is* the armed resistance.
Even towards its own citizens it behaves badly, like when they took over the Gaza TV station by force a week ago or so..
Eliad, believe me when I say that I have NO time for any group that would target civilians. The smartest thing these guys could do is renounce terrorism and fully move into politics. Although that would leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war.
Educate me..
Read, research, debate and form your own conclusions. But whatever you do, dont take my word for it.
edit on 27-10-2010 by joewalker because: (no reason given)
edit on 27-10-2010 by joewalker because: added opinion on the
idf.
reply to post by Eliad
The irgun represented, you claim, "extremist" elements. Interesting, then, that's where sharon, dayan, and begin got their start.
If the zionist leadership and several prime ministers are considered "extremist" by you, then we actually agree on something.
Like I said, portraying things as you do, including calling me paranoid or spending too much time on blogs and not enough on wiki, is nothing but twisting of facts and skewing of truth. My facts come from:
1.) Personal experiance
2.) Volumes of reference material (mostly hardcover)
3.) And to stay on top of current events, the net,
In that order.
What we're discussing here is actually mostly found in obscure, dusty volumes anyway.
And if you don't like the fact that many here are skeptical of the msm, then you've likely never heard an outright lie you know for a fact is untrue on the news or in the paper. I have. People come to this "conspiracy" site many times due to the fact they've actually witnessed a conspiracy. If you want to debate only the facts upheld by the status quo, then join a college debate team, this is honestly not the best place to extol the virtue of traditional media sources. As you can see, Ats'ers ARE the alternative media. Watch the news, they just started reporting on a story broke here, Charlie Chaplin's time traveller.
So, to sum it up, you're giving one sided statements, eschewing the essential "other side of the story" necessary for a full and accurate representation of the actual events, and using a reference written by anons on the internet.
Like I said, it's great to finally get facts and figures from your point of view, as before all pro isfakis did on here was parrot platitudes and incendiary statements taken directly from extreme right wing hawks. However, here on this site we totally deconstruct any and all statements made in a thorough "vetting" process, otherwise we would all be believing the so called aliens and messiahs that just love to tell us their "urgent message to humanity". It's interesting how you would paint me as some type of misinformed, ill-educated, poorly read tin hatter. Tactics that speak volumes about you to observant individuals.
The irgun represented, you claim, "extremist" elements. Interesting, then, that's where sharon, dayan, and begin got their start.
If the zionist leadership and several prime ministers are considered "extremist" by you, then we actually agree on something.
Like I said, portraying things as you do, including calling me paranoid or spending too much time on blogs and not enough on wiki, is nothing but twisting of facts and skewing of truth. My facts come from:
1.) Personal experiance
2.) Volumes of reference material (mostly hardcover)
3.) And to stay on top of current events, the net,
In that order.
What we're discussing here is actually mostly found in obscure, dusty volumes anyway.
And if you don't like the fact that many here are skeptical of the msm, then you've likely never heard an outright lie you know for a fact is untrue on the news or in the paper. I have. People come to this "conspiracy" site many times due to the fact they've actually witnessed a conspiracy. If you want to debate only the facts upheld by the status quo, then join a college debate team, this is honestly not the best place to extol the virtue of traditional media sources. As you can see, Ats'ers ARE the alternative media. Watch the news, they just started reporting on a story broke here, Charlie Chaplin's time traveller.
So, to sum it up, you're giving one sided statements, eschewing the essential "other side of the story" necessary for a full and accurate representation of the actual events, and using a reference written by anons on the internet.
Like I said, it's great to finally get facts and figures from your point of view, as before all pro isfakis did on here was parrot platitudes and incendiary statements taken directly from extreme right wing hawks. However, here on this site we totally deconstruct any and all statements made in a thorough "vetting" process, otherwise we would all be believing the so called aliens and messiahs that just love to tell us their "urgent message to humanity". It's interesting how you would paint me as some type of misinformed, ill-educated, poorly read tin hatter. Tactics that speak volumes about you to observant individuals.
edit on 27-10-2010 by siahchi because: added a line, subtracted a line
reply to post by joewalker
Nice post.
lol Arutz Sheva is not Israeli MSM.. I've never heard of it before I started posting here.
Ynet is usually good. A bit of a lefty, but not too much.. I think it's just anti Likud and pro Kadima, so whatever Likud does it won't support, so now it seems a bit left wing.
Just quote whatever sections of the report you'd like and link to where you got them from.. I'll handle it from there..
Believe me, I won't just take your word for it.
Again, show me in what way they have been used? Meaning throughout the war.. Have you ever seen Weltz with Bashir?
Yeah but Jewish nationalism isn't ultra nationalism.. I agree, ultra nationalism never ends well.
Show me why you think they were used, and I'll give you my opinion on that.. Until then the only way I can see it is as the apathy of Sharon to this massacre that happened right under his nose.. But it wasn't approved nor was it instigated by the government.
Again, this one, very uncharacteristic, covert op, which was planned, designed, and kept a secret by just a few men, without the knowledge of the prime minister at the time, or anyone else for that matter, still doesn't mean that Israel uses terror to fight its enemies.. One would argue that destroying houses if families of suicide bombers, and blockading, and making a fence and a wall, etc, is terror, but that's for another discussion..
Not many, and finding a few specific, irregular, out of the ordinary events can not compare to a history of terrorism, or to how the Arab nations use and always have used the Palestinian people for their political interests, with no regards as to what happens to the people because of what Hamas is doing.
Iran, for example, is doing the people of Gaza more bad than good, it's doing the people of Lebanon more bad than good, but it doesn't really care..
And 60 years from now, when Hamas in disbanded and its terror forgotten, trust me, Hamas activists will also get ribbons and medals for those social activities, rather than their terrorism.
I would never praise terror..
They split in the early thirties, but retaliations started later than that, around the mid thirties, and they were not approved or authorized by leaders of the Irgun.. Although it doesn't seem like they did anything to prevent it either..
How would you know that?
Not really, they can turn Hamas into their army, or police force, in cooperation with Israel, and not feel defenseless.. And the IDF is no longer occupying Gaza, so what's the big deal?
How can the IDF recognize who's civilian and who's not when Hamas does nothing to distinguish themselves from their civilian population?
Don't worry, I'm a big boy, I can handle your opinions, they won't override mine.
Don't bring up something like Hertzel's book, which I haven't even read, without explaining the context to the rest of what we talked about.. And don't write some obscure reference to the leaders of political zionism, without explaining what you mean.. It just seems like you, yourself, don't feel like you know enough about these specific subjects, so you're sending me off to investigate...
Trust me, I can handle your opinions, and I'll do my own research.
Nice post.
heh heh, I tried to find it on Arutz Sheva but the lack of a search function foiled that plan.
lol Arutz Sheva is not Israeli MSM.. I've never heard of it before I started posting here.
Ynet is usually good. A bit of a lefty, but not too much.. I think it's just anti Likud and pro Kadima, so whatever Likud does it won't support, so now it seems a bit left wing.
I think facilitated was the word used. As you are aware, both reports came to very similar conclusions. But dont take my word for it, anyone reading our discussion can research and find the reports.
Just quote whatever sections of the report you'd like and link to where you got them from.. I'll handle it from there..
Believe me, I won't just take your word for it.
Again, show me in what way they have been used? Meaning throughout the war.. Have you ever seen Weltz with Bashir?
Jewish nationalism being so much better than other types...ultra-nationalism never ends well, for anyone.
Yeah but Jewish nationalism isn't ultra nationalism.. I agree, ultra nationalism never ends well.
Show me why you think they were used, and I'll give you my opinion on that.. Until then the only way I can see it is as the apathy of Sharon to this massacre that happened right under his nose.. But it wasn't approved nor was it instigated by the government.
The planting of explosive devices aimed at civilian infrastructure is terrorism, state sponsored in this case. Isnt that exactly what you are accusing 'Arab' nations of in your OP?
In meetings with prime minister Moshe Sharett, minister of defense Pinhas Lavon denied any knowledge of the operation. When intelligence chief Gibli contradicted Lavon, Sharrett commissioned a board of inquiry consisting of Israeli Supreme Court Justice Isaac Olshan and the first chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, Yaakov Dori that was unable to find conclusive evidence that Lavon had authorized the operation.
Again, this one, very uncharacteristic, covert op, which was planned, designed, and kept a secret by just a few men, without the knowledge of the prime minister at the time, or anyone else for that matter, still doesn't mean that Israel uses terror to fight its enemies.. One would argue that destroying houses if families of suicide bombers, and blockading, and making a fence and a wall, etc, is terror, but that's for another discussion..
Hmmm, I wonder how many more we can find..
Not many, and finding a few specific, irregular, out of the ordinary events can not compare to a history of terrorism, or to how the Arab nations use and always have used the Palestinian people for their political interests, with no regards as to what happens to the people because of what Hamas is doing.
Iran, for example, is doing the people of Gaza more bad than good, it's doing the people of Lebanon more bad than good, but it doesn't really care..
I hear the hamas also have social programs as well.
And 60 years from now, when Hamas in disbanded and its terror forgotten, trust me, Hamas activists will also get ribbons and medals for those social activities, rather than their terrorism.
You are in good company though, Netenyahu said something very similar in a speech praising ex irgun members - one mans terrorist etc etc.
I would never praise terror..
Nope.The irgun split from the haganah in the early thirties.
They split in the early thirties, but retaliations started later than that, around the mid thirties, and they were not approved or authorized by leaders of the Irgun.. Although it doesn't seem like they did anything to prevent it either..
Irgun members continued to defend settlements, but at the same time began counter-attacks, thus ending the policy of restraint. These attacks were intended to instill fear in the Arab side, in order to cause the Arabs to wish for peace and quiet.
The first operations began around April 1936...
At that time, however, these acts were not yet a part of a formulated policy of the Irgun.[10] Not all of the aforementioned operations received a commander's approval, and Jabotinsky was not in favor of such actions at the time. Jabotinsky still hoped to establish a Jewish force out in the open that would not have to operate underground.
In reality, the armed operations against Arabs were the actions of small groups, or even individual Irgun members. Most of the Irgun were involved during this time with protection and defense of settlements.
They had no need to go round with a sign, Jewish palestinians already knew who they were.
How would you know that?
Although that would leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war.
Not really, they can turn Hamas into their army, or police force, in cooperation with Israel, and not feel defenseless.. And the IDF is no longer occupying Gaza, so what's the big deal?
How can the IDF recognize who's civilian and who's not when Hamas does nothing to distinguish themselves from their civilian population?
Read, research, debate and form your own conclusions. But whatever you do, dont take my word for it.
Don't worry, I'm a big boy, I can handle your opinions, they won't override mine.
Don't bring up something like Hertzel's book, which I haven't even read, without explaining the context to the rest of what we talked about.. And don't write some obscure reference to the leaders of political zionism, without explaining what you mean.. It just seems like you, yourself, don't feel like you know enough about these specific subjects, so you're sending me off to investigate...
Trust me, I can handle your opinions, and I'll do my own research.
reply to post by Eliad
Sorry for the delay, its been busy today.
Settler radio .
No, not yet but people should. Can I remind anyone reading this that it was the Israeli people who pressured their Government into investigating the events at Shabra and Shatilla, a fact which is sometimes forgotten.
Yep, I should have phrased that differently. There is a difference between Jabotinskys ideas and Herzl's. Which ideology do you believe is predominant? Strange thing is, both men believed that integration of the (Jabotinskys words) native population was both possible and important. Under a Jewish majority of course.
Israel should have become a light to the world instead it failled (imho), because it couldnt raise itself out of the European nationalism from where the guiding ideology came.
So its gone from, we have never used the tactics of terror to, well, we sometimes have done it. Plausible deniability is the phrase the Brits and US use.
Its never black and white where governments are concerned, just shades of grey. As people we object to some 'shades of grey' but not others.
The Kahan Commission is a good example.
As opposed to the Jewish political government, which of course, only spread justice and light.
Or even a plaque on a wall celebrating a terrorist attack. Funny how quickly we forget..
I know.
Most historians agree that the split was between those chose restraint and those who didnt.
Surely members of the haganah would be aware of those who had left to join the 'Jewish underground.
Didnt the PA try that in early 2002? Mind you, that would be back when they stupidly believed that the first duty of government was to protect its people from enemies foreign and domestic..
Maybe not occupying, how about controlling?
yea, sucks to be in a guerilla war, imagine how the brits felt during the mandate. But that was entirely different, that was resistance.
What did you make of the recent admission, in court, by an IDF training Major that the IDF does not recognise civilians in war? Do you think Austrailian born Mark Regev felt like he'd been lied to?
Self praise is no praise
Thereby summing up the problem of the Palestine - Israel debate.
Alternatively, you could go and actually read up on the origins and originators of political Jewish extremism and come back and tell the forum what you found. Oh, I forgot, your opinions are intractable and always, always right.
Or at least thats what you want us to believe .
To be honest fella, its not you I'm aiming at. A blind man on a galloping horse could spot the obvious flaws in the OP.
Both sides are at fault, as were the then British Government, as were the UN.
Back in a bit.
Sorry for the delay, its been busy today.
lol Arutz Sheva is not Israeli MSM.. I've never heard of it before I started posting here.
Ynet is usually good. A bit of a lefty, but not too much.. I think it's just anti Likud and pro Kadima, so whatever Likud does it won't support, so now it seems a bit left wing.
Settler radio .
Again, show me in what way they have been used? Meaning throughout the war.. Have you ever seen Waltz with Bashir?
No, not yet but people should. Can I remind anyone reading this that it was the Israeli people who pressured their Government into investigating the events at Shabra and Shatilla, a fact which is sometimes forgotten.
Yeah but Jewish nationalism isn't ultra nationalism.. I agree, ultra nationalism never ends well.
Yep, I should have phrased that differently. There is a difference between Jabotinskys ideas and Herzl's. Which ideology do you believe is predominant? Strange thing is, both men believed that integration of the (Jabotinskys words) native population was both possible and important. Under a Jewish majority of course.
Israel should have become a light to the world instead it failled (imho), because it couldnt raise itself out of the European nationalism from where the guiding ideology came.
Again, this one, very uncharacteristic, covert op, which was planned, designed, and kept a secret by just a few men, without the knowledge of the prime minister at the time, or anyone else for that matter, still doesn't mean that Israel uses terror to fight its enemies..
So its gone from, we have never used the tactics of terror to, well, we sometimes have done it. Plausible deniability is the phrase the Brits and US use.
Its never black and white where governments are concerned, just shades of grey. As people we object to some 'shades of grey' but not others.
The Kahan Commission is a good example.
Not many, and finding a few specific, irregular, out of the ordinary events can not compare to a history of terrorism, or to how the Arab nations use and always have used the Palestinian people for their political interests, with no regards as to what happens to the people because of what Hamas is doing
As opposed to the Jewish political government, which of course, only spread justice and light.
And 60 years from now, when Hamas in disbanded and its terror forgotten, trust me, Hamas activists will also get ribbons and medals for those social activities, rather than their terrorism.
Or even a plaque on a wall celebrating a terrorist attack. Funny how quickly we forget..
I would never praise terror..
I know.
They split in the early thirties, but retaliations started later than that, around the mid thirties, and they were not approved or authorized by leaders of the Irgun.. Although it doesn't seem like they did anything to prevent it either..
Most historians agree that the split was between those chose restraint and those who didnt.
How would you know that?
Surely members of the haganah would be aware of those who had left to join the 'Jewish underground.
Not really, they can turn Hamas into their army, or police force, in cooperation with Israel, and not feel defenseless.. And the IDF is no longer occupying Gaza, so what's the big deal?
Didnt the PA try that in early 2002? Mind you, that would be back when they stupidly believed that the first duty of government was to protect its people from enemies foreign and domestic..
Maybe not occupying, how about controlling?
How can the IDF recognize who's civilian and who's not when Hamas does nothing to distinguish themselves from their civilian population?
yea, sucks to be in a guerilla war, imagine how the brits felt during the mandate. But that was entirely different, that was resistance.
What did you make of the recent admission, in court, by an IDF training Major that the IDF does not recognise civilians in war? Do you think Austrailian born Mark Regev felt like he'd been lied to?
Don't worry, I'm a big boy..
Self praise is no praise
I can handle your opinions, they won't override mine.
Thereby summing up the problem of the Palestine - Israel debate.
Don't bring up something like Hertzel's book, which I haven't even read, without explaining the context to the rest of what we talked about..
Alternatively, you could go and actually read up on the origins and originators of political Jewish extremism and come back and tell the forum what you found. Oh, I forgot, your opinions are intractable and always, always right.
Or at least thats what you want us to believe .
It just seems like you, yourself, don't feel like you know enough about these specific subjects, so you're sending me off to investigate...
To be honest fella, its not you I'm aiming at. A blind man on a galloping horse could spot the obvious flaws in the OP.
Both sides are at fault, as were the then British Government, as were the UN.
Back in a bit.
edit on 28-10-2010 by joewalker because: Added British and UN.
edit on 28-10-2010 by joewalker because: (no reason
given)
reply to post by siahchi
Sharon evacuated all the settlements out of Gaza unilaterally, and Begin signed the peace treaty with Egypt, those aren't very good examples of extreme people, now are they?
The fact is that the Irgun and Lehi combined had a fraction of the amount of followers the Hagana had, and while these people might have come from these more extreme groups, doesn't mean they were the most extreme members of the group, and the groups themselves weren't all composed of bad people.
What personal experience?
What reference material? The fact that it's in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I can easily find books biased in favor of both sides.
The direction the river flows depends on the location of its source.
What you're discussing is mostly found on internet blogs and anti Israeli/Zionist websites.
Tell me, what obscure dusty volumes are you talking about, anyway? This isn't the Greco-Roman wars, these are events that happened 60 years ago and are well documented by historians, both Pro and Anti Israel. Both versions aren't hard to come by, even online.
It's not that people are skeptical of the MSM, they're just skeptical at the MSM that doesn't fit their agenda. Most people are skeptical of anything that tells them they're wrong.
I'm also skeptical, but I'm skeptical about both sides, and you can see that in other threads, I don't believe anything that simply fits what I believe.
The same can not be said about some of the more extreme anti Israelis- They would easily believe a testimony of a 10 year old over photographed proof, or a video or a so called execution on board the Navi Marmara, with no muzzle flash, no magazine, and a strange rifle that only resembles an M4. Yet they'd choose to believe the narrative, rather than examining the actual evidence.
That's your skepticism.
You're doing the same.
You're making it seem like some kind of a "douche move", when in fact there are very few threads in this forum that aren't completely and utterly one sided. Most of which are biased against Israel, and for your opinions. so don't lecture me about the essential "other side of the story".
I am the other side of the story!
This wasn't about vilifying the Palestinian people, but more about shedding light on different matters, in light of the general misguided opinions of people in this forum.
Again I ask, what *is* credible in your eyes? If I had quoted a book would you have believed it, or it's all bull# because it doesn't fit your agenda?
How childish..
I wouldn't have it any other way. I do the same to anything I find hard to believe, disingenuous, or misleading.
Misinformed, maybe.. I would say it's more like selectively informed. As for ill-educated and poorly read- Those are your interpretations, and wasn't my intent.
But whatever you saw in my post, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You're worse, you're making yourself seem like some kind of truth seeker, while I'm this fake, lying, misleading Israeli PR worker.. And now you're trying to make me look like I'm the bad guy, when my only claim is that you choose what to believe. Tactics like that speak volumes about you to observant individuals.
All in all you've never even answered any of my questions-
What sources are credible? Give me websites, give me names of books, tell me, what do you consider to be "the truth" and what makes you think mine's less credible.
You haven't suggested what I should write on Wikipedia to see if it gets rejected.
And you haven't shown what is it exactly that I've lied about.
Interesting, then, that's where sharon, dayan, and begin got their start.
Sharon evacuated all the settlements out of Gaza unilaterally, and Begin signed the peace treaty with Egypt, those aren't very good examples of extreme people, now are they?
The fact is that the Irgun and Lehi combined had a fraction of the amount of followers the Hagana had, and while these people might have come from these more extreme groups, doesn't mean they were the most extreme members of the group, and the groups themselves weren't all composed of bad people.
1.) Personal experiance
2.) Volumes of reference material (mostly hardcover)
3.) And to stay on top of current events, the net,
In that order.
What personal experience?
What reference material? The fact that it's in a book doesn't mean it's the truth, I can easily find books biased in favor of both sides.
The direction the river flows depends on the location of its source.
What we're discussing here is actually mostly found in obscure, dusty volumes anyway.
What you're discussing is mostly found on internet blogs and anti Israeli/Zionist websites.
Tell me, what obscure dusty volumes are you talking about, anyway? This isn't the Greco-Roman wars, these are events that happened 60 years ago and are well documented by historians, both Pro and Anti Israel. Both versions aren't hard to come by, even online.
And if you don't like the fact that many here are skeptical of the msm
It's not that people are skeptical of the MSM, they're just skeptical at the MSM that doesn't fit their agenda. Most people are skeptical of anything that tells them they're wrong.
I'm also skeptical, but I'm skeptical about both sides, and you can see that in other threads, I don't believe anything that simply fits what I believe.
The same can not be said about some of the more extreme anti Israelis- They would easily believe a testimony of a 10 year old over photographed proof, or a video or a so called execution on board the Navi Marmara, with no muzzle flash, no magazine, and a strange rifle that only resembles an M4. Yet they'd choose to believe the narrative, rather than examining the actual evidence.
That's your skepticism.
you're giving one sided statements
You're doing the same.
eschewing the essential "other side of the story" necessary for a full and accurate representation of the actual events
You're making it seem like some kind of a "douche move", when in fact there are very few threads in this forum that aren't completely and utterly one sided. Most of which are biased against Israel, and for your opinions. so don't lecture me about the essential "other side of the story".
I am the other side of the story!
This wasn't about vilifying the Palestinian people, but more about shedding light on different matters, in light of the general misguided opinions of people in this forum.
and using a reference written by anons on the internet.
Again I ask, what *is* credible in your eyes? If I had quoted a book would you have believed it, or it's all bull# because it doesn't fit your agenda?
all pro isfakis
How childish..
here on this site we totally deconstruct any and all statements made
I wouldn't have it any other way. I do the same to anything I find hard to believe, disingenuous, or misleading.
It's interesting how you would paint me as some type of misinformed, ill-educated, poorly read tin hatter
Misinformed, maybe.. I would say it's more like selectively informed. As for ill-educated and poorly read- Those are your interpretations, and wasn't my intent.
But whatever you saw in my post, aren't you doing the exact same thing? You're worse, you're making yourself seem like some kind of truth seeker, while I'm this fake, lying, misleading Israeli PR worker.. And now you're trying to make me look like I'm the bad guy, when my only claim is that you choose what to believe. Tactics like that speak volumes about you to observant individuals.
All in all you've never even answered any of my questions-
What sources are credible? Give me websites, give me names of books, tell me, what do you consider to be "the truth" and what makes you think mine's less credible.
You haven't suggested what I should write on Wikipedia to see if it gets rejected.
And you haven't shown what is it exactly that I've lied about.
reply to post by joewalker
We're probably the only ones
I think both of them are seriously outdated... I don't these ideologies seriously.. I come from a different generation of Israelis, Zionism is not an ideology to me, It's a thing of the past, arcane, something thought up 100 years ago, when the Jews were all scattered about... It's not applicable to today's reality.
Not under a Jewish majority, but as equal partners.. Jabotinsky even said- For every Israeli PM there should be a Palestinian Vice-PM (whatever the correct term is) and vice versa.
Why can't they be good people? Why must they be dominating sons of bitches?
There will always be darkness in any human society.. Just look at the whole wikileaks fiasco.. Where's Goldstone when you need him..
No it hasn't.. It was never at "we have never used the tactics of terror", or that there aren't Jewish terrorists:
And it didn't go to "we sometimes have done it", it has always been "Israel's way is not that of terror" and I simply added that one dirty covert op doesn't change that, plausible deniability or not..
One's black is another man's white.
It might not be perfect, but it's doesn't fall short of any civilized government in the world..
Show me another country who would take in Darfurian refugees running from a genocide? We take them in. The Egyptian boarder patrols, btw, shoot them on sight, and I've witnessed that.
We give them blankets.
I really could care less if that happens.. Give the 70 year old ex terrorist his stupid plaque..
Yeah, but the counter attacks only started in 36'..
The Haganah *was* the Jewish underground..
From what I remember they all hid in shelter apartments and such.. It's a good point though, I guess they knew who some of them were, at least, but what makes you think they were easy to catch? They were evading both Haganah, and the British..
Right now the PA police is the only reason why the Israeli army is not in Palestinian cities- They're stopping the terrorists so we can leave them alone.
Alright, controlling it is.
So renouncing terrorism and moving to politics won't " leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war", it would just help them remove the Israeli political control..
Besides, history shows that once the PLO stopped using terror we immediately started giving them guns, and even APC.. We even gave them guns in Oslo, which were later turned at us in the intifada..
It won't override it, but I will take it into consideration, as I have so far. I've agreed with you on some points, and disagreed on others, haven't I?
I really don't care about the origins of Zionism.. Not so much that I'd go read this book.. I have other things to do, you know...
At this point I'm not so sure that you've even read this book..
What's so hard about presenting me with an argument that I can comment on?
And why are you implying that I either can't admit that there's extreme Zionism, or that I would never go against anything or anyone that's Zionist? I mean I've already done both, what different does it make if Hertzel was an extremist or not? It's not like his ideology was followed to the latter.. I mean, he suggested Uganda to be the home of the Jewish people...
As I've said before, this isn't about showing both sides.. This is about debunking a few myths.. Yeah, it's one sided, like all other threads in this forum.. How should I have balanced it in your opinion?
Do you find that this thread's "one sided"ness is unusual to this forum? Is it any different than any other thread here?
Can I remind anyone reading this
We're probably the only ones
Which ideology do you believe is predominant?
I think both of them are seriously outdated... I don't these ideologies seriously.. I come from a different generation of Israelis, Zionism is not an ideology to me, It's a thing of the past, arcane, something thought up 100 years ago, when the Jews were all scattered about... It's not applicable to today's reality.
Strange thing is, both men believed that integration of the (Jabotinskys words) native population was both possible and important. Under a Jewish majority of course.
Not under a Jewish majority, but as equal partners.. Jabotinsky even said- For every Israeli PM there should be a Palestinian Vice-PM (whatever the correct term is) and vice versa.
Why can't they be good people? Why must they be dominating sons of bitches?
Israel should have become a light to the world instead it failled (imho), because it couldnt raise itself out of the European nationalism from where the guiding ideology came.
There will always be darkness in any human society.. Just look at the whole wikileaks fiasco.. Where's Goldstone when you need him..
So its gone from, we have never used the tactics of terror to, well, we sometimes have done it.
No it hasn't.. It was never at "we have never used the tactics of terror", or that there aren't Jewish terrorists:
I'm not saying Israel's politics is and always has been flawless, I'm just showing the connection between Palestinian terrorism and Arab political interest, is all..
I am, in fact, suggesting that it has stopped. It still happens from time to time, but it's not organized, neither is it effective, neither is it supported by the government.. As a matter of fact just a couple of months ago the internal security agency arrested a Jewish terrorist after tracking him for a long time.
And it didn't go to "we sometimes have done it", it has always been "Israel's way is not that of terror" and I simply added that one dirty covert op doesn't change that, plausible deniability or not..
Its never black and white where governments are concerned, just shades of grey.
One's black is another man's white.
As opposed to the Jewish political government, which of course, only spread justice and light.
It might not be perfect, but it's doesn't fall short of any civilized government in the world..
Show me another country who would take in Darfurian refugees running from a genocide? We take them in. The Egyptian boarder patrols, btw, shoot them on sight, and I've witnessed that.
We give them blankets.
Or even a plaque on a wall celebrating a terrorist attack. Funny how quickly we forget..
I really could care less if that happens.. Give the 70 year old ex terrorist his stupid plaque..
Most historians agree that the split was between those chose restraint and those who didnt.
Yeah, but the counter attacks only started in 36'..
Surely members of the haganah would be aware of those who had left to join the 'Jewish underground.
The Haganah *was* the Jewish underground..
From what I remember they all hid in shelter apartments and such.. It's a good point though, I guess they knew who some of them were, at least, but what makes you think they were easy to catch? They were evading both Haganah, and the British..
Didnt the PA try that in early 2002? Mind you, that would be back when they stupidly believed that the first duty of government was to protect its people from enemies foreign and domestic..
Right now the PA police is the only reason why the Israeli army is not in Palestinian cities- They're stopping the terrorists so we can leave them alone.
Maybe not occupying, how about controlling?
Alright, controlling it is.
So renouncing terrorism and moving to politics won't " leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war", it would just help them remove the Israeli political control..
Besides, history shows that once the PLO stopped using terror we immediately started giving them guns, and even APC.. We even gave them guns in Oslo, which were later turned at us in the intifada..
Thereby summing up the problem of the Palestine - Israel debate
It won't override it, but I will take it into consideration, as I have so far. I've agreed with you on some points, and disagreed on others, haven't I?
Alternatively, you could go and actually read up on the origins and originators of political Jewish extremism and come back and tell the forum what you found. Oh, I forgot, your opinions are intractable and always, always right. Or at least thats what you want us to believe
I really don't care about the origins of Zionism.. Not so much that I'd go read this book.. I have other things to do, you know...
At this point I'm not so sure that you've even read this book..
What's so hard about presenting me with an argument that I can comment on?
And why are you implying that I either can't admit that there's extreme Zionism, or that I would never go against anything or anyone that's Zionist? I mean I've already done both, what different does it make if Hertzel was an extremist or not? It's not like his ideology was followed to the latter.. I mean, he suggested Uganda to be the home of the Jewish people...
A blind man on a galloping horse could spot the obvious flaws in the OP.
As I've said before, this isn't about showing both sides.. This is about debunking a few myths.. Yeah, it's one sided, like all other threads in this forum.. How should I have balanced it in your opinion?
Do you find that this thread's "one sided"ness is unusual to this forum? Is it any different than any other thread here?
reply to post by Eliad
lol, thought had crossed my mind.
I know, and its through your generation (on both sides) that progress will be made. Hopefully.
Jabotinsky said a lot of things: "There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs."
Yes, a Jewish majority was a prerequiste. 'Transfer' of a significant proportion of the Arab (Christian, Moslem, Druze etc) population of Palestine has always been a part of a zionist Israel. Hertzl makes reference to it, as have most of the leading figures of Israeli politics.
Jabotinsky was also the leader of the irgun and before that, inspiration, and eventual leader to the Latvian betar.
Politicians?
Pre 1948 the jewish underground was comprised of various groups.
I believe ya. All you have to do now is convince the people living within 'Palestine' that the idf and israeli politicians will stop the policy of settlement and that of collective punishment and 'transfer'....though 65years of post (WW2) war actions and a century of European zionist political thought kinda says different.
True, a monumental error on the part of both arafat and the Palestinians. Didnt Abbas make a recent admission that the intifada had been a mistake on arafats part?
Speaking of the 2nd intifada, do you not think that someone within the Isreali political arena might have realised that allowing sharon to visit the to the al-Aqsa/Temple Mount so soon after the eighteenth aniversary of the Shabra and Shatilla massacre, may just have been a little bit of a provocation? On the bright side, it did help the fella get reelected, every cloud..
Yep, and to your and the threads credit you continue to do so.
Have to admit that its been a while since I last read it.
I think you are doing just fine.
Hertzl suggested (after it was proposed by the British?) Uganda as a kind of half way house to help get people of Jewish faith away from Russia. The plan was rejected quite quickly by the Zionist congress.
Im not sure that I did infer you are incapable of rejecting extreme zionist thought? If I did I apologise.
Unlike some other posters on this subject you can allow that, sometimes, Israel has taken action that appears to be entirely counter productive to peace.
The biggest one being that its all the fault of Arab politics. The second biggest being that Palestine was an empty country in which people didnt exist or were of no consequence:
The villiages may not exist but what of the people?
The 1929 Hebron massacre. Sixty nine dead and four hundred more saved by Palestinian families.
The Simpson - Hope report makes for sad but interesting reading. Do you think the formation of the irgun was in any way a response to the white paper which proceeded the S-H report?
What did you make of the reported practices by the zionist/ Jewish unions?
Your own link points to some doubt as to who the actual perperators were. There is no doubt however, that some of the refugees forced out of Isreali areas of the UN partition had been crossing the border for various reasons and that some did engage in attacks against the new Israel.
No mention of the Israeli massacre at Quibya six months before? Unit 101 led bravely by our old friend ariel sharon and ably assisted by Ben Gurion and def minister Lavron of OP Susannah fame. Sixty nine people dead, some under the rubble of their own homes.en.wikipedia.org...
No, just surprised an ATS member as able as yourself would succumb to it.
We're probably the only ones
lol, thought had crossed my mind.
I think both of them are seriously outdated... I don't these ideologies seriously.. I come from a different generation of Israelis, Zionism is not an ideology to me, It's a thing of the past, arcane, something thought up 100 years ago, when the Jews were all scattered about... It's not applicable to today's reality.
I know, and its through your generation (on both sides) that progress will be made. Hopefully.
Not under a Jewish majority, but as equal partners.. Jabotinsky even said- For every Israeli PM there should be a Palestinian Vice-PM (whatever the correct term is) and vice versa.
Jabotinsky said a lot of things: "There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs."
Yes, a Jewish majority was a prerequiste. 'Transfer' of a significant proportion of the Arab (Christian, Moslem, Druze etc) population of Palestine has always been a part of a zionist Israel. Hertzl makes reference to it, as have most of the leading figures of Israeli politics.
Jabotinsky was also the leader of the irgun and before that, inspiration, and eventual leader to the Latvian betar.
Why can't they be good people? Why must they be dominating sons of bitches?
Politicians?
The Haganah *was* the Jewish underground..
From what I remember they all hid in shelter apartments and such.. It's a good point though, I guess they knew who some of them were, at least, but what makes you think they were easy to catch? They were evading both Haganah, and the British..
Pre 1948 the jewish underground was comprised of various groups.
Alright, controlling it is.
So renouncing terrorism and moving to politics won't " leave them defenceless against an occupying military which doesnt recognise civilians in times of war", it would just help them remove the Israeli political control..
Besides, history shows that once the PLO stopped using terror we immediately started giving them guns, and even APC.. We even gave them guns in Oslo, which were later turned at us in the intifada.
I believe ya. All you have to do now is convince the people living within 'Palestine' that the idf and israeli politicians will stop the policy of settlement and that of collective punishment and 'transfer'....though 65years of post (WW2) war actions and a century of European zionist political thought kinda says different.
We even gave them guns in Oslo, which were later turned at us in the intifada
True, a monumental error on the part of both arafat and the Palestinians. Didnt Abbas make a recent admission that the intifada had been a mistake on arafats part?
Speaking of the 2nd intifada, do you not think that someone within the Isreali political arena might have realised that allowing sharon to visit the to the al-Aqsa/Temple Mount so soon after the eighteenth aniversary of the Shabra and Shatilla massacre, may just have been a little bit of a provocation? On the bright side, it did help the fella get reelected, every cloud..
It won't override it, but I will take it into consideration, as I have so far. I've agreed with you on some points, and disagreed on others, haven't I?
Yep, and to your and the threads credit you continue to do so.
At this point I'm not so sure that you've even read this book..
Have to admit that its been a while since I last read it.
What's so hard about presenting me with an argument that I can comment on?
I think you are doing just fine.
And why are you implying that I either can't admit that there's extreme Zionism, or that I would never go against anything or anyone that's Zionist? I mean I've already done both, what different does it make if Hertzel was an extremist or not? It's not like his ideology was followed to the latter.. I mean, he suggested Uganda to be the home of the Jewish people...
Hertzl suggested (after it was proposed by the British?) Uganda as a kind of half way house to help get people of Jewish faith away from Russia. The plan was rejected quite quickly by the Zionist congress.
Im not sure that I did infer you are incapable of rejecting extreme zionist thought? If I did I apologise.
Unlike some other posters on this subject you can allow that, sometimes, Israel has taken action that appears to be entirely counter productive to peace.
As I've said before, this isn't about showing both sides.. This is about debunking a few myths..
The biggest one being that its all the fault of Arab politics. The second biggest being that Palestine was an empty country in which people didnt exist or were of no consequence:
en.wikiquote.org...
We came to a region that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In many places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around...
Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them.
”
The villiages may not exist but what of the people?
Yeah, it's one sided, like all other threads in this forum.. How should I have balanced it in your opinion?
The 1929 Hebron massacre. Sixty nine dead and four hundred more saved by Palestinian families.
The Simpson - Hope report makes for sad but interesting reading. Do you think the formation of the irgun was in any way a response to the white paper which proceeded the S-H report?
What did you make of the reported practices by the zionist/ Jewish unions?
1954 Ma'ale Akrabim massacre- 11 killed
Your own link points to some doubt as to who the actual perperators were. There is no doubt however, that some of the refugees forced out of Isreali areas of the UN partition had been crossing the border for various reasons and that some did engage in attacks against the new Israel.
No mention of the Israeli massacre at Quibya six months before? Unit 101 led bravely by our old friend ariel sharon and ably assisted by Ben Gurion and def minister Lavron of OP Susannah fame. Sixty nine people dead, some under the rubble of their own homes.en.wikipedia.org...
Do you find that this thread's "one sided"ness is unusual to this forum? Is it any different than any other thread here?
No, just surprised an ATS member as able as yourself would succumb to it.
edit on 31-10-2010 by joewalker because: clarity
edit on 31-10-2010 by joewalker because: Taken out a trolling
remark.
reply to post by joewalker
Make room doesn't mean evacuate.. If he believed in co-existence it's more likely that he didn't mean moving the Palestinians out, but rather make room somehow..
And then again he might have meant sending them all away.. It's a bit out of context, could be interpreted in several ways.
In reality it never happened.. The Christians, the Druze and the Beduins were all allowed to stay.. And it easily could have, so I don't see how that can be true?
100 years ago everything was possible.. It was only after the end of colonialism that borders were drawn and nations were established.. The world was different.. So the idea of one group of people moving to a different piece of land wasn't that crazy...
Again, I'd be surprised if he meant just clearing out the whole land of Palestine for the Jews.. But it doesn't matter, as history shows that's not what happened in the end.
Good point
Mainly Haganah, the rest were tiny offshoots.. The Haganah was 30,000 active members plus about twice that in reserves, and the Irgun and Lehi were around a few thousands combined...
I'm not sure it's up to them anymore, with Hamas in command, but seeing as we've already evacuated the settlements I don't see how they can be reestablished.. Maybe if Hamas had used these former settlements as grounds for new cities, instead of grounds to shoot mortars out of, their own people would be better off.
As I've said, there are fire starters everywhere.. What bugs me though is how the Arabs respond in rioting and rock throwing about *everything*! I mean, come on, put those rocks down, you're not helping yourself...
And to be honest, I'm just too lazy to go and read the whole thing just to understand some narrative.. Although I am pretty curious..
I know, but still, that's what he suggested.. I'm just saying, other people were involved in this, not just Hertzel.
Wha? Since when is *this* the myth? No, it's actually the other way around, people don't realize how deeply politics are involved in this.. And I mainly referred (as I've specified in the OP) to the years prior to the mid 80's, not to what happens today.
Who says that around here? And what does it have to do with my post? I never even implied that Palestine was empty, in fact I'm pretty sure I did just the opposite.
Again, this one thread can't be about everything- It was supposed to be about debunking the "No Palestinian violence prior to 87' " myth.. Couldn't have people going around spreading lies, so I created this thread for reference, for when the next idiot goes around claiming the Palestinians were peaceful protesters the whole time and just snapped in 87' due to Israeli evil..
Yeah, they had to move out just because the rich bastard they were working the lands for sold his lands to the Jews..
That's nice, but it's outside the point.. As I said, I wasn't trying to vilify the Palestinian people, I was simply showing that there was violence at the time.
I'm sure it was a part of it.. Probably Lehi more than Irgun, but I really can't say for sure..
What do you mean?
Again, this isn't about who massacred who first, as I said, this is about showing that there has always been Palestinian violence.. And, of course, there has always been Israeli violence..
BTW this is a good Wikipedia article to read for whoever thinks Zionists are rewriting Wikipedia..
Didn't feel like I had much choice.. All I wanted was to address this single issue, and that's what I did.. I limited the facts to the Palestinian political intervention, and Palestinian activities, but I guided the debate to reflect both sides-
But the problem is that most anti Israeli posters in this forum don't have the knowledge or mental tools to deal with this debate.. They can only deal with strictly anti Israeli threads, in accordance with their rhetoric..
I really do think that this pro Palestinian, anti Israeli stance has become more of a fashion statement for "cool" collage students than an actual educated opinion.
If this has been written on "Israeli terrorism" this would have had 50 flags and a million stars already, with every other post being "ISRAL LIEKS TO KILL PEPOL ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!111 tehyr teh evilest cuontry in da world!!111"...
Every thread in this forum relating directly to Israel and Palestine seems to follow these rules.
Jabotinsky said a lot of things: "There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs."
Make room doesn't mean evacuate.. If he believed in co-existence it's more likely that he didn't mean moving the Palestinians out, but rather make room somehow..
And then again he might have meant sending them all away.. It's a bit out of context, could be interpreted in several ways.
'Transfer' of a significant proportion of the Arab (Christian, Moslem, Druze etc) population of Palestine has always been a part of a zionist Israel.
In reality it never happened.. The Christians, the Druze and the Beduins were all allowed to stay.. And it easily could have, so I don't see how that can be true?
Hertzl makes reference to it, as have most of the leading figures of Israeli politics.
100 years ago everything was possible.. It was only after the end of colonialism that borders were drawn and nations were established.. The world was different.. So the idea of one group of people moving to a different piece of land wasn't that crazy...
Again, I'd be surprised if he meant just clearing out the whole land of Palestine for the Jews.. But it doesn't matter, as history shows that's not what happened in the end.
Politicians?
Good point
Pre 1948 the jewish underground was comprised of various groups.
Mainly Haganah, the rest were tiny offshoots.. The Haganah was 30,000 active members plus about twice that in reserves, and the Irgun and Lehi were around a few thousands combined...
All you have to do now is convince the people living within 'Palestine' that the idf and israeli politicians will stop the policy of settlement
I'm not sure it's up to them anymore, with Hamas in command, but seeing as we've already evacuated the settlements I don't see how they can be reestablished.. Maybe if Hamas had used these former settlements as grounds for new cities, instead of grounds to shoot mortars out of, their own people would be better off.
Speaking of the 2nd intifada, do you not think that someone within the Isreali political arena might have realised that allowing sharon to visit the to the al-Aqsa/Temple Mount so soon after the eighteenth aniversary of the Shabra and Shatilla massacre, may just have been a little bit of a provocation? On the bright side, it did help the fella get reelected, every cloud..
As I've said, there are fire starters everywhere.. What bugs me though is how the Arabs respond in rioting and rock throwing about *everything*! I mean, come on, put those rocks down, you're not helping yourself...
Have to admit that its been a while since I last read it.
And to be honest, I'm just too lazy to go and read the whole thing just to understand some narrative.. Although I am pretty curious..
Hertzl suggested (after it was proposed by the British?) Uganda as a kind of half way house to help get people of Jewish faith away from Russia. The plan was rejected quite quickly by the Zionist congress.
I know, but still, that's what he suggested.. I'm just saying, other people were involved in this, not just Hertzel.
The biggest one being that its all the fault of Arab politics.
Wha? Since when is *this* the myth? No, it's actually the other way around, people don't realize how deeply politics are involved in this.. And I mainly referred (as I've specified in the OP) to the years prior to the mid 80's, not to what happens today.
The second biggest being that Palestine was an empty country in which people didnt exist or were of no consequence
Who says that around here? And what does it have to do with my post? I never even implied that Palestine was empty, in fact I'm pretty sure I did just the opposite.
Again, this one thread can't be about everything- It was supposed to be about debunking the "No Palestinian violence prior to 87' " myth.. Couldn't have people going around spreading lies, so I created this thread for reference, for when the next idiot goes around claiming the Palestinians were peaceful protesters the whole time and just snapped in 87' due to Israeli evil..
The villiages may not exist but what of the people?
Yeah, they had to move out just because the rich bastard they were working the lands for sold his lands to the Jews..
The 1929 Hebron massacre. Sixty nine dead and four hundred more saved by Palestinian families.
That's nice, but it's outside the point.. As I said, I wasn't trying to vilify the Palestinian people, I was simply showing that there was violence at the time.
Do you think the formation of the irgun was in any way a response to the white paper which proceeded the S-H report?
I'm sure it was a part of it.. Probably Lehi more than Irgun, but I really can't say for sure..
What did you make of the reported practices by the zionist/ Jewish unions?
What do you mean?
No mention of the Israeli massacre at Quibya six months before?
Again, this isn't about who massacred who first, as I said, this is about showing that there has always been Palestinian violence.. And, of course, there has always been Israeli violence..
BTW this is a good Wikipedia article to read for whoever thinks Zionists are rewriting Wikipedia..
No, just surprised an ATS member as able as yourself would succumb to it.
Didn't feel like I had much choice.. All I wanted was to address this single issue, and that's what I did.. I limited the facts to the Palestinian political intervention, and Palestinian activities, but I guided the debate to reflect both sides-
Notice how important facts about this conflict are left out by both sides' propaganda, and how this short collective memory is affecting our opinions?
We all know America funds Israel for political reasons, and we all know Hamas is funded by Iran and other radical Islamics, something that, in the end, is fruitless, as Israel has given back to Gaza everything it can, and will ever give, and only increases the suffering of both Palestinians and Israelis. Are we all just political pawns? Were the Palestinians mere pawns to Arab nations, used only to weaken Israel?
But the problem is that most anti Israeli posters in this forum don't have the knowledge or mental tools to deal with this debate.. They can only deal with strictly anti Israeli threads, in accordance with their rhetoric..
I really do think that this pro Palestinian, anti Israeli stance has become more of a fashion statement for "cool" collage students than an actual educated opinion.
If this has been written on "Israeli terrorism" this would have had 50 flags and a million stars already, with every other post being "ISRAL LIEKS TO KILL PEPOL ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!111 tehyr teh evilest cuontry in da world!!111"...
Every thread in this forum relating directly to Israel and Palestine seems to follow these rules.
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