I suspect reality is as follows, and I want liberation from it

Originally posted by Sahabi
ShnogTrip,
I hope my post didn't come off as an aggressive attack against you. I just got caught in the rage of imagining the true evils humans are capable of.

You're fine man. I didn't take it as an attack. I understand what you are saying. I don't understand how a new born being microwaved to death would be a necessary experience or why it's allowed to even be possible. If we are all one and are here to experience and learn everything, I think we've experienced enough. Human beings have hurt each other and the rest of the world for way too long. I can only hope that it will end shortly but the rational thinker in me says that this is all just wishful thinking, and that there is no god(s), and that human beings aren't god(s), and that we will continue harming and suffering until we become extinct.

I wonder if OP has ever read anything to do with Buddhism or Buddha dharma. Great stuff, I am do not practice the dharma myself but have taken interest in it somewhat.. Zen is a favourite of mine, but thats another story.

recently bored my friend to death talking about this driving in the car.

The above poster speaks of "souls like hair". very close. My idea of it all speaks to that and "light".
i think everything "real" is manifested in our reality. We are as much a part of god as the planets are a part of the solar system. The sun(god) is 95%, and all the planets and moons make up 5%,of the solar systems mass. If the earth collided with another large mass, it wouldnt die per se. It would still be mass in the solar system, just in another form.

as for the Op's rage. i understand how you feel. There was a time when i said to myself, "what's the point of it all? Are we here to simply live out a life, then be re crafted and do it over again?" over and over. Every atrocity again and again.

I dont think so. You have found all of this knowledge, but are still viewing it through your world views lens. Not that I know the answer, I dont.

The only reason I believe that god isnt evil is because I feel empathy. How could that exist with out a god?

Also, think of your development in this world, seeking to understand other worlds. If I may, i would say higher worlds. Now where in your overall development are you, are we? the 49th day of gestation? We have alot more growth ahead of us. Where is god on that spectrum? Way, way above us. I pray every night before bed, not so much because I want him to hear me. Its so I hear him in me. he is remote and uncommunicative like a person in antarctica would be to you. He has given us everything we need. We just have to really listen.

As for human life. We create and live in our environment. karma is real, albeit indirect. In order for you to ascend, you have to help your fellow man. If he is drowning next to you, and you dont help, he will eventually grab you and you both will die.

I think we are all in a simulation. We are all in a dream that is testing us, seeing what we are made of. You die, and are graded in a beautifully objective manner. Winning isnt the right word, its more like succeeding. Almost like we are all being vetted for something in the next world, while unaware of it.

Interesting subject!!

I do not think this is hell or a horrible life in anyway. The world is how we interpret it in our minds, we control everything.

Everything that you see (other than nature) is shaped by your mind. Everything has been someones thought at one time or another. From bathtubs to jet liners, these were all someones thought.

If you think that we are in a bad place, you can leave it, whether it is moving to Alaska or to some tropical island. We have that control in our lives. If you feel out of balance where you live by all means get out of there, because all it does is drain you and make you go on a downward spiral.

That is the interesting thing about negativity is that once one thought enters it will create more and more crappy ones.

We have the choice to be happy, we are the only ones that control our happiness. Yes, there are people out there than can have a positive or negative experience, but, your the one that can interpret those interactions how you want.

If someone is in a bad mood they could interpret anything as being mean or a personal attack. That is why sometimes people can say something that they normally do and it pushes your buttons. Your in control of those buttons and can turn them off at will.

Reality is the shape of your mind. Control anything you wish, and when you figure that out you will understand what true freedom is. Inner peace.



Pred...

Excellent original post, and something I have thought about often and repeatedly.

It used to be that I believed that life was meant to experience all of the simple joys, the happy times, the personal discoveries, the wonderment of being alive....and here and there we were met with a hardship, an obstacle that is meant to be overcome, a brief rough patch in the road which we would have to negotiate in order to grow as a human.

Now it seems that life is nothing more than a long running series of mishaps, misfortunes, heartaches and devestation.....mixed in here and there with a glimmer of good and a small bright spot that leads to hope that all is not lost.

This world is dark. This life is desolate and lonely. The ending is rarely a happy one and good most definitely doesn't triumph over evil. It is all one long exercise in futility, at best a maze of anguish and disappointment that must be lived and must be solved.....at worst absolutely pointless and inhumane.

In the end it ultimately comes down to the fact that as a human on this planet, you almost have to be able to force yourself to believe there is some purpose, that there is some higher intelligence at work here. You have to remain vigilant in the belief that there is a reason for all of this, the good and the bad, and that someone or something somewhere knows the reason behind it all.

reply to post by schuyler the gods are evil our creator is not, life was created by love for the purpose of extending life and filling what was empty.... Not for some game or experiment! The gods screwed the pooch and now we are locked in a cycle of slavery that we can escape from if we just throw off the chains of duality and say no! No I will not play this game! No evil will not be tolerated, and humanity will no more be slave to this society-which is set up by the gods, for the gods- I will not obey the rules! Rebel and dethrone god/s!.... Just a thought....

reply to post by schuyler


I agree with you, that we need to start remembering who and what we were, but I can't help but feel that the keys to that consciousness are locked away within our very selves.
The best place to hide something is in plain sight. We have had those keys all along, but we never knew it.


One will be exactly where they need to be.
Sometimes divergence occurs.
That divergence can negatively affect the outcome of your existance.
It's the result of millions of interactions and outcomes where there are conflicting variables and that equation doesn't balance itself out.

Then there are those moments where you knew something was going to happen but somehow escaped by the skin of your teeth.
Again, the variables worked in your favor.

This life is a trial. It's how we live it that is important to us. Otherwise we are all just life. No different than any other creature. The purpose of life is "to live". It's our own consciousness that gives meaning other than mere existance to that life.

Hope is all we have left my friend.

reply to post by reticledc see thats the thing tho, I dont understand the whole "trial by fire" thing, why should our lessons be lessons in pain and agony and having to choose between the devil and the demon? How does any of that, any of this, evolve our consiousness? Like I said, the world view of duality the dogma that says we need evil good needs wrong bla bla bla, has served only the evil doers

Always good to see people using their brains kudos to OP and all replies.

Buddhist philosophy has been my greatest influence because they take god (creator) out of the picture, they use the logic that if a being is able to create something from nothing then what stops the creator being created? They also use the arguement (dependent arising / dependent origin)

Nothing Is Absolute No beings or phenomena exist independently of other beings and phenomena. All beings and phenomena are caused to exist by other beings and phenomena. Further, the beings and phenomena thus caused to exist cause other beings and phenomena to exist. Things and beings perpetually arise and perpetually cease because other things and beings perpetually arise and perpetually cease. All this arising and being and ceasing go on in one vast field or nexus of beingness. And there we are.

Once you can get your head around dependent arising then you begin to see that suffering is two-fold, there is Karma which I can't fully explain, please see the link and that we also sub consciously choose to suffer.

Karma throws up so many arguements and I would love to discuss them but in another post so this thread doesn't get hijacked.

The choice issue is very interesting and people who find it difficult to comprehend will shoot me down, the arguement I give is simple - 'marmite' you either love it or hate it, as the saying goes - the marmite is the same substance for both individuals experiencing it, both tongues are structured in the same way, so why does one love it and the other hate it? Shouldn't they both experience it in the same way? I think this same scenario can cover everything in life, so why do people experience the same things so differently?
In my opinion is is down to choice and our information associated with that choice. Its not a coincidence that people often like or do not like the the same things as their parents. At a young age we are influenced by their decision making process and we commit it to our subconscious mind, which in turn effects the decisions we make on how to experience.
Still with me? lol, If the above is true then we can alter how we interpret the stimuli we experience, how we do that is individual to each of us and unfortunately would be another post.

So why are we here? IMO because we are a continuum and have and always will be. Its up to us what direction we take, its our responsibility to realise we have a choice and then to regain control over our continuum.

There again I could be deluded and spouting BS, but its my delusion and I'm happy with it.

Originally posted by Jamjar


Once you can get your head around dependent arising then you begin to see that suffering is two-fold, there is Karma which I can't fully explain, please see the link and that we also sub consciously choose to suffer.

Karma throws up so many arguements and I would love to discuss them but in another post so this thread doesn't get hijacked.

I prefer the concept of merit to karma to be honest. Karma was initially for people practicing Dharmatic Buddhism where it was just used for getting a better next life and over the thousand, millions, trillions etc. lives you may have before you reach liberation.

But you're right, another thread another time for Buddhist philosophy on liberation and the paths toward it.

maybe people should stop wishing that other people solve their pronblems and start doing something about it.
You do have free will, even if it doesn't always look like it. Even at gunpoint you have a choise.

good/evil
black/white
male/female
yin/yang

There is where I found my answer, one does not exist without the other. The concept of good is nothing without the evil to oppose it. I do sort of agree with the 'enough is enough' already idea but that's me - one little hair on the head and I guess impose my will on the other hairs is not in the cards. Perhaps they have not yet had enough and this stuff will only stop when they all reach that point.

Reality is simple. Reality does not consist of thought-constructions that don't really build anything, rather obstruct you from seeing the simpleness of it all.

And when it all gets too hard and you need a miracle look into the mirror.

reply to post by schuyler


Ive had an NDE and I saw someone I didnt recognize but saw years later.... while I was walking into the light I remembered a book on NDEs I had read and the part where walking into the light leads to death.... so I walked backwards into the light and here I am.... I made a conscious choice to live.... so what is death to me? is it the same to you? God is an experience just like where my dialogue right now is coming from.... I do not believe in anything other than my own experience.... take it from me everybody makes a conscious choice to follow their faith, but faith is not a choice but a blessing.... all we need is hope to maintain presence of mind in the search for what it is we live for; actually I still dont know why we live

reply to post by schuyler


If you study Buddhism, it was this very reason "to break away from the painful chain of reincarnation", that Buddha started his journey of meditation and finally got his Nirvana which is a state that you are free from the cyclic chain of eternal reincarnation. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm a Chiristian. But I studied world religion when I was 22 years of age. I try to make connection to understand what all these mean.

reply to post by notsoperfect


So what did Buddha achive breaking the cycle when he reached Nirvana? Buddha did die right? So then what?

Hi, brother, and congratulations, the first step to liberation comes through the realization that you want to get out. The second thing after you realize that you are enslaved are the rules imposed to you that makes you enslaved.

The third thing, after you know the rules of the game, then you should be capable somehow to discern a right path destined to liberation.

I compare it like being in prison if you will; while in prison you have a laundry list of rules that you should abide in. If you are "good" and comply you are granted liberation and sometimes before your time is due. If you are "bad" you are forced to stay in for a even longer period of time and in worse conditions. This is the choice that we all have.

There is a plethora of phenomena that binds you to this reality like "how you like the smell of orange" and "getting laid". Learn all of them if you wish to get out, it is not enough to just desire to; that will be like trying to get out of house on fire but unable to get out because you love the smell of smoke. I wish you success in your journey on getting unattached to all that binds you to this reality. Cheers, your brother.

You seem to have some of the most valued kernels of understanding that exist. In your plea you are addressing an entity/being that is detached from you though. There is not a care about your desires only a use for you. If you should become useless, perhaps another use could be found. It is up to you to direct that use.

Originally posted by schuyler
Don’t you dare tell me this is all self-inflicted. It’s not. You did this to us and I don’t want to do it any more. You’re locking a paper bag on our heads, making us forget everything we’ve ever endured, then sending us down here to “do good.” Nonsense. How can You justify this torture?

...

Whoever started this, You no longer have my support. We’re not the problem; You are. I want out of this pattern. I want You to let my people go. I want You to free us from the shackles of this cycle. If there is not already a movement with similar ideals and goals, it starts here. If there is, point me where to sign up. I am going to devote every ounce of strength I have, at whatever level, to break out of this hell You have created for us.

One of the hardest aspects to deal with in regards to all being One, is all that happens is 'Me' doing all these things, for good or bad. There are aspects of our selves that we are not comfortable with. Aspects which we can't forgive ourselves for. As I forgive my neighbour I forgive my Self. As I love my neighbour I love my Self.

reply to post by predator0187


Reality is how we perceive it, true, but it is not all roses and peaches when you become aware of your african brothers dying of hunger everyday or your middle easter brothers being killed every day. I can not stand in front of them and muster that reality is how you perceive it and everything is all good and peaches, cheers, your brother